Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.

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William

Guest
Hi Promise, I like it.

You are two days from 10% to 90.  That is a good first step.  Just a few more and you are clean.  Keep going, porn is not an option.

And, whether it is girl reaction or girly action, I get plenty.  Because, now that I am clean, I can. 

Peace. 
 
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William

Guest
So, just noticed today is the 18th.  To be honest I don't really count how long I have been clean anymore, it is not a thought that runs around in there.  The days just go and I don't PMO.  It is not a struggle anymore.  I count the 18th important because when I first began quitting, I always counted another month down on the 18th, so, today will be 14 months clean.  No PMO. 

For anyone reading this asking if you can get clean the answer is:  you can get clean.  Understanding that you can live a porn free lifestyle is the first step. 

Peace.

Keep going.  Porn is not an option.
 

jkkk

Well-Known Member
This thread, William, is brilliant.

What I did was:
- printed it out in whole,
- reading it page by page,
- now at page 24 out of 39 that my printer accounted for.

What I admire about your approach is your insistence on naming our problem dopamine addiction, not porn addiction.

It rings perfectly with me and on top of that I want to add a few words of my own. Words and thoughts that I reckon were with me for a very long time, but only now, after reading this illuminative stuff, have found a proper way out.

1. Porn substitutes will ruin your reboot. Full stop.

The comments you made on porn substitutes hit the nail on the head. I personally experienced that as dopamine kicking as porn are all kind of activities and material that contain significant amount of sexuality:

- perusing and searching girls profiles on Facebook,

- searching the Internet for images of women (eg. checking out actresses, famous people, wives of famous guys etc.),

- browsing gossip sites,

- plastic surgery sites,

- TV (obviously erotic movies, but not only them - lots of movies contain strong sexual imagery and references)

- reality shows (OK., Masterchef might not be in this group but you know which reality shows I mean - basically, anything on MTV),

- tabloid newspapers, magazines with racy pictures of women (obviously porn magazines, but Playboy is not a safe option either),

- news regarding sexual lives (eg. reports on infidelities),

- staring at women in public places (shopping malls, streets, public transport) a.k.a. objectifying women.

Some will say that I am a total lunatic with such ideas the above lists looks a little crazy - but hey, this what this addiction can lead to.

The list is of course made on my subjective experience. All these activities spiked my dopamine levels and put me in the hunting and craving mode.

It is a very particular feeling - you think you are not relapsing, but you notice something is drawing your attention and using your time. If you observed yourself for longer while, you would probably notice that you are doing those activities compulsively.

2. Porn substitutes must be treated as porn. Not for a limited amount of time, but forever.

I will explain why I think that is not enough to ditch porn substitutes for just 90 days.

The word that is often used with regard to above activities is "triggers".

I don't think that "trigger" is a good word. But I admit I myself used that word for many years. I started rebooting 4,5 years ago, so I have something like 54 months under my belt. I went without looking at porn for years, but read why it all did not prove so brilliant, why I did relapse and why I am back here, fighting alongside you guys.

Back when I started out I relied heavily on "Don't call it love" by Patrick Carnes, I guess the classic book on sex addictions. One of the recommended actions back then was to make a "map of behaviours" where there was a green area (good behaviours), yellow area (triggering, unsafe behaviours) and red area (relapse behaviours - center of the addiction). All of the above-listed activities were recognizing by me as unsafe and went into yellow. So I always was aware that I should not engage in those activities. My no porn streak was 2 years or longer, so it seemed pretty much great - I was relapse free for a very long time.

But then, some cracks started appearing, some jinks in the armour. I did not know what was going, but I felt I did not feel the effects of the reboot anymore. I became critical of life, of my woman. I felt less satisfied with life. Then, I noticed, started relapses with porn. No binging, no 3 week-streaks. Just every now and then. I thought that maybe it was due to extraordinary stress and that I simply must focus on the reboot armour.

In truth, at a certain point time, I think 8-10 months after starting the reboot, I started engaging in porn substitutes. Unseemingly, uncosciously. Normal stuff. What is wrong with browsing the Internet and finding out how one's wife looks like?

Well it is, if you're a dopamine addict, like myself.

I have been observing my behaviour for a very long time and I knew for a long time now that something was wrong. I knew, in principle, that I should be engaging the above-mentioned activities. I read about guys undertaking "no pixels" reboot.

I thought for a long time about a no-pixel reboot. I knew I needed it, but I hesitate and rationalized. Because I'm an addict.

And it NEVER crossed my mind that I was doing was pure sabotage - it is actually dopamine-kicking and binging my system.

Here is where your remarks, William, were just pure illumination. The coincidence amazes me, because I found out the thread 3 days after deciding to go on a non-pixel reboot. I felt almost like finding the one puzzle that went missing under the carpet. Thanks for giving me this feeling.

So these activities, if you use them as I did, cannot be really called mere "triggers". They are the ACTUAL ADDICTION.

And honestly, I think that for us, addicts, it is never safe to go back to those activities.

3. Porn substitutes are more dangerous than porn.

Because they are so not obvious. And seem so benign. Harmless. C'mon, having a look at some gossip "never killed nobody", did it?

And you will find less and less understanding. I guess people can understand not watching porn, but they might look strange at you if you tell them that you will not access the link that they just sent you, because you do not read gossip sites. Try to find out.

4. Withdrawals are hell. Staying free of addiction long-term is a challenge as well.

Withdrawal (4,5 years ago) was hell for me.

I had panic attacks. I couldn't sleep. I had problems eating. I ached. I was lone with all that.

I want everyone who has these kind of withdrawal symptoms to know that I know what you guys feel.

I would also say that the memories of the withdrawal are the single reason I stayed away from porn for such a long time and why my relapses never extended to 2-week porn binges. Those memories give me shivers.

Yet it is a time of total war. This is what is captivating about it - you are like a soldier on the front. There is a purpose, there is a need. You feel pain but you march on.

This feeling wanes with time after you free yourself and get past the biggest obstacles. It is then, I believe, where the knowledge of how the addiction works is important. It is also then where the knowledge about porn substitutes becomes handy. Because it rarely happens that after 10 months of being totally clean you decide one day - "screw it, let's watch porn".

It is a gradual process where you are engaging in more and more dopamine-enticing activities.

Be aware of that and watch out. I'm telling this to myself in the first place.

I love my renewed no-pixel reboot effort. I feel a bit like finding the Holy Grail. I do not expect heavy withdrawals (will keep you posted if anything like this happens), but I expect setting on a route of really dealing with my dopamine addiction and freeing myself for life. And really and fully loving and rewiring to my wife, just as she deserves.

Keep your fingers crossed for me, guys.
 

Promise

Well-Known Member
What is a no-pixel reboot?

I've mentioned before how identifying and learning to ignore your 'triggers' (whether you call them that, or an extension of your addiction) is essential for a good reboot.  I will admit to occasionally glancing for too long at a Facebook photo, or following a news link if I think it might turn out to be raunchy.  I've identified these as 'yellow' activities and should seek to cease them.  Another not so cut and dry issue I've faced recently is fantasizing about relationships.  Not about sex, just about relationships and women.  It makes me feel happy, but I wonder if it's a harmful thing to do, living in a fantasy world.

Thanks for the post jkkk, most illuminating.
 
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William

Guest
Hi jkkk, thank you for your insightful post here.  For me, this all goes back to the Gary Wilson video.  The first one.  Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSF82AwSDiU

Porn is not porn.  Porn is just a button we push to get a dopamine fix.  We are not addicted to porn, we are addicted to dopamine.  Without the dopamine fix porn (or porn substitutes, or any other hypersexual thought we have that gives us a dopamine fix) gives use, we would find pornography about as interesting as watching the moon set.  Interesting?  Yeah, but not so much.  For the porn addict, porn is a cameleon, it can change form; we have to be careful, especially in the quitting phase, because our dopamine soaked brains will trigger on just about anything.  That is the disease reasoning with us, begging us, rationalizing with us, threatening us, blackmailing us, to relapse.  Just a little won't hurt.  The thing about porn addiction is, it can be starved to death, but the smallest amount of dopamine abuse in the quitting phase just keeps it alive, lingering, hanging around. 

jkkk, I am glad if anything I said helps.  Helping is the only reason I still post.  No one said these things to me when I was quitting.  Gary Wilson is a genius at telling us why we are addicted, not so much at telling us how to quit.  It is hard for a non-addict to understand just how powerful this problem is.

@ promise: 

I love the track, love Heaven 17, and love 80's synthopop, but it's a bit before my time.  Let's bring it into the present:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svefcog5PRM

If you beat the addiction you won't have no problems, but you'll have one less problem. 

promise, I know you are not counting, which is how I got clean, but promise me you will keep going. 

Peace out bro.

Anyone reading this:  Radio Will I AM broadcasting.  I am on this side of free.  I want to see all of you here too.  Take off your chains. 
 

jkkk

Well-Known Member
Promise said:
Another not so cut and dry issue I've faced recently is fantasizing about relationships.  Not about sex, just about relationships and women.  It makes me feel happy, but I wonder if it's a harmful thing to do, living in a fantasy world.

Hey Promise,

I've been there too and I confirm your approach. I remember, as an adolescent, fantasizing about relationships. It really felt like I was totally living in a fantasy world... It was very bad, made me very sad and depressed then - I see it from today's perspective.

People are wonderful the way they are and the way we meet and find them, so I definitely encourage going out and meeting, talking, flirting - making acquaintances, making friendships, romancing. I feel I lost a large part of my life to porn, most of us here probably feel this way.

It's easier said than done, I know, but the reboot helps immensely in regaining confidence. Immensely.
 

Promise

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the replies, guys.  I promise to keep going.  It's a Promise promise.  I feel strong, and my life feels fulfilling without porn.  There's more work to be done, but I'm happy :)
Thanks for the song, William, was alright for pop  ;D 80s synth pop is before no one's time, it is timeless.

I'm going to stop living in a fantasy world and start working hard in this one.  Thing is, I really have a thing for this German internet friend.  There's no doubt we're going to meet up at some point, I was having a talk with someone else about whether it's healthy to fall for someone on the internet, and the general conclusion was that it's almost a cop out.  I don't feel like my internet personality is any different from my irl personality though, and our phone calls feel very genuine.  Unless someone has a grave warning, I think I might pursue this one.  I don't know if she's interested in me, but we'll see, eh?
 
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William

Guest
It helps to have a hero.  Do you have a hero?  I have many heroes, people, men and women, that I admire and that I can emulate.  One of my heroes is a guy who died long before most of us were born.  He never gave up.  He just pushed and pushed and pushed.  My philosophy of "leaning to love withdrawals" might be translated as taking joy in the pain of pushing the boundaries.  Quitting porn, for the addict, is both painful and terrifying.  We have fucked up our brain's reward system so badly by years of abuse that turning off that dopamine spout will be punished.  Always remember, porn is, and only is, a button we push for a dopamine high.  When you quit pushing that button the reward center will punish you to try and make you push it again.  You have to embrace that pain, not run away from it, not find ways to avoid it or distract yourself from it, but look it right in the eye.  You have to push yourself, you have to tell yourself "I am a man who will not be broken", you have to go on, despite every fiber of your being wanting to go back, you have to be willing to feel like dying. Hell, you have to be willing to die, because after years of abusing your brain's reward center, when you turn off the dopamine spout, that is exactly what your brain is going to tell you you are going to do.  Porn addiction is a very small place and it is very, very comfortable.  You have to be willing to tear down those boundaries and push yourself far, far away and outside that comfortable, numb, place you have created through years of abuse. 

You can do it.  This is my hero, Steve Prefontaine.  He died a long, long, long time ago before the vast majority of us were even born.  He never gave up, and whenever I felt like quitting, I just thought of him. You see, quitting porn or any addiction is like running a race.  I promise you, when you are running, you will want to stop, you will want to slow down, you will want to stop and walk, you will want to lay down, and at a certain point you will feel like completing it is impossible. I am here to tell you, you CAN do it, you can finish this race. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjvHHwLHqc8

Keep going, porn is not an option.

Peace.
 
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William

Guest
Radio Will I AM, broadcasting to the occupied territories. 

Hello Gentlemen.  If you who are reading this are dedicated to keeping your addiction in your life, go away.  I have nothing to say to you. 

There are two types of guys here.  Both types love the dopamine high porn gives them. The first type is here trying to control the addiction, to keep porn in their life, but to control it.  They are doomed to fail.  For a porn addict, porn cannot be kept in their lives if they are going to overcome it.  Nice guys, those guys, I like a lot of them.  Come back in five years and you will still find them posting about their latest 10 day streak.

Then there is the other group of guys.  I stand with them.  They understand they cannot control porn addiction, and so it had to go completely from their lives.  These guys are free, they are no longer slaves.  Don't be a slave.  Take off your chains.  When it comes to quitting porn addiction there is only "quit" and "continuing to use."  There is no middle ground, there is no gray, there is only black and white.  You love the dopamine hit, I understand, but if you are joining us, here on the quit side, you have to give it up.  Completely.  There is no middle ground; there is no conditional surrender, the surrender must be unconditional; there is only total victory or continued defeat.  Your addiction will tell you why this is not true; your addiction will lie to you.

I want you to watch something.  Here it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3voRbKryjA

"If I'm a lover of the good times, my lover's the sun light."

I know, WTF am I doing posting a music vid in a porn addiction recovery forum?  What is the point?  The point is:  I am free.  I am going out in the world today.  I am going to run 5 miles, I am going to challenge myself.  I am going to engage the World.  I may get a black eye and a split lip.  Getting free of porn does not mean I can't get hit, can't feel pain.  I can get hit out there, I can feel pain, but I can inflict it too, and maybe when we are done, reality and me, it will have a black eye and a split lip too.  When you are free, you will be dangerous. 

Brothers.  Brothers!  BROTHERS!!  WAKE UP!!  GET OUT.  GO LIVE LIFE!  When I was a slave I worshiped porn.  I worshiped death, because that is what the worship of porn is, worshiping the opposite of living.  Now I worship life.  Make the choice to quit worshiping death and to worship life.  TAKE OFF YOUR CHAINS!!  I invite you to stand with those of us who are free.

Much love. 
 
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William

Guest
Hi Guys, Dogwood just posted this here in the PIED forum and over on nofap in the Addiction forum.  It is important.  It is about us, our problem, and what we are doing about it.  Read it. 

http://yourbrainonporn.com/london-times-feature-gary-wilson-cure-porn-addicts-who-have-lost-loving-feeling

Posted in the London Times today. 

Peace. 
 
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William

Guest
Porn addicts are notoriously OCD, meaning we have trouble fixing our attention on anything for more than a second, but...this is important.  Watch this.  It will help you understand what is going on in there.  Yes, yes, I know, 50 minutes, that is forever, but it is the best 50 minutes a porn addict will ever spend.  OK, OK, I know what you are thinking...no smart ass replies please. 

http://yourbrainonporn.com/erectile-dysfunction-and-porn

Peace. 
 
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William

Guest
Radio free Will I AM, broadcasting to the occupied territories.  I am here to tell anyone who reads this that porn addiction need not be a lifetime of slavery, that you can overcome it, that you can be free.  You just have to take the medicine, and the medicine is turning off all those buttons you are pushing to get a dopamine high.  Best drug in the world, dopamine, and we carry it around in our heads, we don't even need to ingest it, just a bit of porn will do it, every day, multiple times a day, for years.  I know, I just described you because I just described myself before I got clean. 

Here is a quote:

?One school is finished, and the time has come for another to begin.?
? Richard Bach, Jonathan Livingston Seagull

Why post literature from the outside here in a porn addiction recovery forum?  Because, to recover, you have to get off this forum and engage in the outside world.  Pornography addiction is death worship, it is the opposite of life worship, it is the ultimate disengagement from living.  Gentlemen, it is time to quit dying and time to start living.  It is time for you to go outside, get out in the real world where, admittedly, it's a bit more dangerous than sitting alone in front of your computer, but you won't get clean of this until you learn to take a punch, and along the way you will learn to throw one. 

Good luck in your journey.

Peace.
 

jkkk

Well-Known Member
So, William, I got through the whole thread, little by little.

I can say the same thing you are saying - I wish someone told me all those things when I started rebooting and struggling with dopamine addiction.

There are a few points you made that resonate with me.

First, the only black and white world. Simple, but ruthless. I reasoned with myself for much too long, explanining that various behaviours were "normal" and the "usual guy stuff". Bullshit.

Second, nothing to rewire to, only scorched earth. That is painfully true and gruesome. I had basically no sex life and no erotic life, and practically no girlfriends during my binging years. Absolute mayhem in terms of my sexual health. This also created a lot of confusion for me when I first rebooted. I did not know whether real sex was OK or good, or was it not, did it help in recover or did it hamper it?

I wish there was some protocol that young guys could follow, that would lead them out of this abyss.

For myself, I am fighting now. And it is difficult. I do not have a hard withdrawal, but I see that my brain is squeezing painfully for it fixes - staring at girls, looking at imagery, glancing at high-heeled shoes. It's creepy to see what the attacked system settles for when it being deprived of fixes. But I want to continue. I want to get better and for the cravings to get weaker. Keep fingers crossed for me.


 
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William

Guest
Hi jkkk, thank you very much the post and the kind words.  Yes, ruthless is the word.  Porn addiction will try and talk you into compromise, but there is no compromise with porn addiction, you are either using or you are clean; there is nothing in the middle.  A lot of guys trying to quit do not quit seriously because they do not think of the problem as that serious.  Porn has become so accepted in our society that the concept of totally abandoning it is contrary to popular opinion.  For many of us porn use started out almost like a game, a fun diversion, an amusement park ride.  We have to turn our world view upside down on this point by the time we realize it has become a disease.  We have to turn our backs on something we have come to rely upon as an emotional crutch.  What we only realize at the end is, we are not cripples, we use the crutch because we have come to love the crutch.  You are 82 days in.  90 is the gold standard.  There will be days difficult after that but for most of us the problem begins to recede, to become manageable, at that time, we don't fear relapse.  I know I will never relapse.  I have absolute confidence you, too, will stay clean.  I am crossing my fingers for you, but I have no doubt you will succeed.

Peace.   
 
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William

Guest
I don't write here for me.  I write here for the guy I used to be.  I write here for the guy who knows he is in trouble, who knows there is a problem, but does not really understand what it is.  I write here for the guy who has come to the terrifying revelation that he has fallen under a spell and that he is no longer in control of his life.  I write here for the guy who feels compelled, compelled, to PMO every day, sometimes more than once a day.  I write for the guy who has moved through all the categories and finds himself watching something, getting off to something, that he does not recognize as having anything to do with normal sexuality.  I write here for the guy who is desperate to quit, but for whom the idea of quitting is alien.  I write here for the guy who cannot conceive of the possibility of quitting, but who desperately wants to.  I write here for the addict who no longer wants to be addicted.  If you who read this is that guy, the guy I used to be, I have something to say to you.

I am clean.  You can be too.  No one ever died quitting porn addiction, it only feels like it for a little bit.  You do not have to be who you are.  You can be who you want to be.  Make the choice, make the call.  Step to this side of clean.

Peace. 

Will I AM.
 
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William

Guest
Thank you for all the nice replies.  It is all really about choice.  But then, everything is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FToHabxSVYg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79ZFw6bO2d4

There is nothing keeping you here, "here" being addicted to pushing the porn button to get a dopamine high.  If you are "here" it is because you choose to be.  You CAN choose not to be. 

Much love. 
 

positive_beginning

Active Member
I read it all your posts in this thread. I can't thank you enough.
It will take me to read this repeatedly  to completely internalize what you have said, I will be visiting again.
Being part  of this journey, I need to associate porn with pain.But as I internalize  your learning, I realize  there is more to it, porn is but a button to dopamine high.This is actually the learning which should change my life for porn has never been a big problem for me.But there is no fooling around with P subs/MO.
I am preparing for the withdrawl. I guess, I have been through these -although I never knew it by that term.But its a fresh positive beginning to romancing the withdrawls once more.
Thanks for the simple motto too. 
Thanks once again for the beautiful insights and putting it so beautifully. 
 
 
W

William

Guest
Hi positive, I am glad to have helped in any way.  Post here any time.

Peace.
 
W

William

Guest
Radio free Will I AM.  Broadcasting from this side of free.  Broadcasting to the occupied territories.  I am porn free, I am relapse free, I am PMO free, I am.... free.  If you are addicted, I used to be where you are.  Now I am inviting you to where I am.  I am not addicted any more.  I only write here for one purpose.  I write here for those who are out there who doubt they can be free.  You CAN be free.  I will post here for as long as I can, until the batteries are gone. 

Take off your chains. 

In the words of Gabe, "Much Love".  The longer I go the more I feel it. 
 
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