Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.

jkkk

Well-Known Member
William said:
Gracie, thank you.

Well.  We are nearing the end of our time together.  Gabe is a hero.  Gary is a hero.  I am just a guy who beat the addiction.  Second hardest thing behind giving myself CPR.  OK, I never gave myself CPR.  I made that up.  That is a joke.  Guys don't really give themselves CPR.  This was never a life sentence.  It never had to be.  It does not HAVE to be.  If you are at the beginning, you think it is, but it is not.  If you are going to fight the addiction, you have to fight it; it will not be easy, you will have to fight, then you take your hits, then you throw your punches, then you take the punches, and you take them again, until you understand that beating this is not about throwing punches, it is about taking them, over and over and over again.

Quitting porn takes a passion that a guy who quit porn simply does not have.  I am just a guy now, I am not a guy quitting porn. You guys are. It is behind me now.  I am balanced.

Radio Will I AM sending out a broadcast to the addicted, to the nubes, to those who want to quit but do not think they can...YOU CAN.  I need some of you to step up.  It it time to quit learning, it is time you started teaching.  I won't be here forever, I won't be here for long.  I have things to do.

Just a bit more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I1p_sXflQQ

Destroy the middle, it is a waste of time.  If your parents ask, tell them uncle Will said it is OK.  Push it.  That is the only way to live life.  LIVE IT. 

Free is...wonderful.  Free is dangerous.  Free is do whatever you want without ever hurting anyone.  I invite you to free.   

WillIAM.

Hey William,

I had this feeling that you might want to bow out at a certain point.

It would be great, though, if you decided to pop by here, every now and then. It would be great.

I greatly admire your attitude and thoughts - as I wrote here some time ago, it just seems that you're way of explaining the addiction hit a fertile ground in me. Maybe it's also the fact that you're tough with the addiction, and through that, to a certain extent, tough with addicts. There are a few bitter pills in your posts, like the one about the fact that some guys here are merely looking for company in the pains of addiction and not to really starve it out. Tough words, but I know think that they are very true.

Had this problem for a long time - the problem with understanding that there is no middle ground to occupy here. It's impossible to reboot "a bit". I guess even the word "reboot" implies that you can't do it a little. Once you reboot anything it usually starts from scratch. I always thought I could negotiate something with the addiction. But I can't. It always screws things up.

What I caught myself doing recently was also quite interesting from the addiction perspective. Once I started feeling the good fruit of the reboot - more focus, more energy, better relationship with my wife, improved sex - and I felt the confidence pumping in me I would start to think that I radiate energy and would get inclined into checking whether women notice that. This is just a circuit to get back to objectifying - one of my serious problems.

How do you deal with that? Feeling the confidence is a wonderful thing. I think I have no problem channeling it into productive work and activity - working, exercising, meeting people, being romantic with my wife. But I feel it also wants to "get out to the ladies" so to speak which I find counterproductive. Or is it just the dopamine addiction in disguise, always ready to sabotage my improvements?

The fact is, women are beautiful. I sometime feel as if I'm learning how to acknowledge that beauty "in a soft way" and just walk away, my thoughts clear of any dopamine wrenching. But then again there are days where it is not so smooth.
 
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William

Guest
Hi jkkk, thank you as always for the kind words. 

The question you ask is an interesting question, it is a profound question with, I am sure, a profound answer, and I doubt I am qualified to answer it. 

We, and by "we" I mean humanity, think of ourselves are very learned, very smart, and very educated, but we are really only beginning to learn about us.  Your question has to do with, for us, probably one of the most complicated areas of being alive, and that is human sexuality.  I think the question may come down to "what is normal sexuality?'  Well, we can mark dopamine abuse through porn exposure off the list:  It is not normal, it is not healthy, it is unhealthy, and it screws up some of our lives as well as the lives of the ones we love. 

The thing about dopamine is that that system can be abused, and through porn we have abused it.  But dopamine is not the bad guy.  (I can say this now, no longer being a slave to the addiction, but if you are reading this, and you are addicted, then, at least during the reboot, the hard 90, make it your business to make dopamine the bad guy.  Hate it, avoid it, despise it, don't push the porn button we use to get a dopamine high.).  Like jkkk says, there really is no middle ground during the reboot, it is black and white, not gray; you are either quitting, as in forever, or you are just still using but "cutting back."  If you are addicted and are here to "cut back", let me save you the trouble; you are wasting your time; you are making the transition from field slave to house slave, but you are a slave non-the-less, and you will be until you  absolutely commit to overcoming the addiction. 

We, as a species, are only just beginning to explore, scientifically, the role dopamine plays in how we approach life and how we approach our natural sexuality.  We need to understand the role  dopamine in our lives and how it can be good and how it can be abused.  Guys like Gabe and Gary Wilson are early teachers of this, and I firmly believe that in the decades to come this stuff will be taught in school so that others do not fall into the trap we did.  If we were taught what porn does, as least to some of us, then being aware we could avoid the trap.  Most of us here fell in the trap before we knew it was a trap, before we knew it could be.  Many of us here have addictive personalities, maybe even myself, but I don't use heroin--why not?--because I was taught it was bad for me.  We, as a species, are only just learning that porn can be bad for us, that it can be and often is just a means to abuse our brain's dopamine reward center, just a button we push to get a dopamine high.  If I had known that before getting hooked on high speed internet porn, it is entirely possible I would never have gotten hooked.  I, and most of us here, just did not know it could happen.  But now, thanks to guys like Wilson, we do know, and we need to help others know it too.  I believe it is just a matter of time before porn abuse, aka dopamine abuse, is taught in the schools, the same way as personal hygiene, physical fitness, drug abuse warnings, etc. 

But to your question, yes, we like the ladies.  That is OK, that is normal.  I don't have a problem admiring women, even admiring them sexually, but I don't let that go to a hypersexual place.  There is a natural, healthy, dopamine hit that, by design or by evolution, we are supposed to get--and enjoy--then there is using a computer and high speed internet porn every day, multiple times a day, to abuse the dopamine reward system--that is unhealthy, often leads to the addiction, and through the addiction, physical, mental, and emotional pain.  Don't punish yourself because you are attracted to a woman, do not punish your self because you get horny; these things naturally happen.  But do not dwell on it, do not let it control you.  Part of being human, maybe the best part, it to feel desires, but to know we can exercise restraint.  This is not to say we must never satisfy our desires, but, rather, to say that satisfying our desires cannot define us as people, if we want to be the best people we can be. 

I'll be around jkkk, but for now it is up to guys like you, guys for whom the addiction, and overcoming it, are still a passion, to teach the nubes.  If you see a guy with a question, answer it, if you see a nubie, tell them hello and give them some advice.  The advice does not have to be the best advice ever, sometimes a guy just needs to know he is not alone in the struggle and that the struggle really does not have to last forever.  The reason guys here read what I write is very simple; I tell them the one thing no one ever said to me at the beginning of quitting, and that is:  There is an end to quitting, then there is just quit, and that is simply freedom from the addiction. 

Will I AM.

Peace. 
 
hi William

Today I am at 208 days.  Your writing helped me get get my life back. I will always be great ful for your wisdom and your excellent communication skills.  You are a natural teacher.  Thank you.

I too plan to leave here and Nofap.org as well.  Not today, but after 1 year I will have the comfort that only time and change can bring.  Your example is complete.  Get here, learn, get tools, fight like hell, help other if you can, confirm your recovery, get the hell out of here and enjoy life.

One more time I thank you.  I wish you fair winds and following seas.

Everett
 

jkkk

Well-Known Member
Hey William,

Thanks for sharing your view.

The most interesting part of it all is the unknown thing - how would we behave and feel if we hadn't abused our brains...

You do leave quite burden on the guys who are still here, but I accept the challenge. Maybe it's a sweet burden. I guess you are right that a "generation change" is something occurring naturally. I will stand up to that challenge.

J.
 
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William

Guest
I don't remember anymore when I got clean.  Looking back at my own posts I go back and forth between the 17th and the 18th.  It has been that long. 

If you are a newbie, just know, there is a beginning, a middle, and an END, to quitting porn.  If you quit it, there will come a day when it will not follow you around every day, tapping you on the shoulder, trying to get your attention  It just leaves you. 

Will I AM, broadcasting to the guy I used to be, if you pick up this transmission, and there won't be many more, know that I made it to this side of free.  If I can do it, you can do it.  Me?  Nobody.  You can do it. 

I hope you get free.  I want you to get free.  I KNOW you can.  I used to be where you are.  Now I am free.  This is an invitation.  Come to this side of free.  Over here, it gets easy. Easy is...nice. 

Much love.

WilliamOneAndDone.  Billy the kid. 

Fuck porn.

If you are not willing to fight, don't even bother. 

I have absolute confidence anyone picking up this transmission can do it.  You can do it.  It has been done. 

Take off your chains.  You put them on in the first place, take them off.

Kill Bill.  That's an inside joke.  It' OK to laugh.  You are on the inside. 

Peace. 
 

Cyrus

Member
After 68 days, I relasped. After 68 days of no PMO I relasped to erotica. It at first, was unintentional but it possessed my biggest trigger and I faught it and faught it even walking away but the sensitivity in my member was there and semi erection this giving in. I'm extremely upset but am trying to view the positives. Never in my life did I think I could have made it this far. Not only that, but although I was aroused by reading the erotica, it was the stimulation alone that felt amazing. I want the blunt truth though: how far will this set me back? Is all my progress these last 68 days now while not in vein, is it now wasted Bc I gave in? Please give it to me straight. Thank you and here's to making it to 90 days this time.
 
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William

Guest
Hi Cyrus, thanks for the post.  I think you need to work on some key concepts.  I know from reading all your posts--which I just did, all 11 of them--that you have a fundamental understanding that you are not really addicted to porn, but, rather, to dopamine.  Porn is just the button we push to get it.

But in your posts you, more than once, refer to head porn.  That is a button we push to get dopamine as well.  Many guys associate dopamine abuse with actually watching porn and or PMOing, and it is, but it is not just that.  Dopamine abuse can occur for a guy with no arms, no screen, stuck alone on a dessert island; all it takes is your head, the only place it happens is in your head.  Dopamine abuse is using hyersexual thoughts to get a dopamine high.  Put anther way, for an addict in the hard 90, porn is not just porn, it is anything that happens in your head that results in a dopamine spike, and during the hard 90, a lot of stuff society does not even deem pornographic will set off a dopamine spike.  You called it erotica but maybe others call it art.  It does not matter, either way, because if you are an addict in the hard 90 and it sets off a dopamine spike, you have to avoid it. 

Think of the hard 90 as starving the addiction to death.  At its worst, we need some pretty hardcore stuff to trigger a dopamine high, whatever we started watching in the beginning of the addiction process no longer works for us.  But once you start to starve the addiction to death then vanilla porn and bikini mags and Victoria's Secret magazines will set it off.  In your case erotica set it off.  Why?  Because the brain's reward center is, obviously, in the brain, and if you let sexual thoughts in there during the reboot, just by thinking about sex, then you are giving yourself an artificial dopamine buzz.  Might not be a big one, but it you feed the addiction, even a little, it will never die.  Hypersexualized thoughts must be consciously avoided during the hard 90, and according to your posts, you have not been doing that, at least not successfully.  In your case it may not be "using" so much as not having trained yourself not to have those thoughts.  We cannot eliminate them completely or forever, but, at least during the hard 90, you need to develop a system to keep a momentary sexual thought from becoming a full grown sexual fantasy.  Me?  I had a predetermined song that I played in my head every time a sexual thought popped in there.  I could not avoid them popping in--not completely--but when they did pop in I did not let them grow. 

The song I used is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL6qQ7plqaA

Stupid I know.  I don't even like the song, but it is so opposite of sensual and sexual that it immediately breaks any other thought I had in my head.  You need to develop something like that as well.   

I do not believe the relapse is fatal to your recovery.  The fact that you went 68 days is very promising and I know that, even though you relapsed, that 68 days has somewhat rewired your brain away from porn and PMO.  If you can get back on the program I believe it will be easier the second time, but I have to ask, meaning you have to ask:  what is your long term goal?

Quitting porn is about quitting a lifestyle.  We talk a lot here about the hard 90, but it helps to conceive of quitting porn as quitting for life.  Remember, your long term goal is to "reboot", that is take your brain's reward center back to where it was before it was hijacked by porn.  In a sense rebooting is about desensitizing your brain to porn.  From there, desensitized to porn, you want to "rewire."  Rewiring is about sensitizing your brain to reality as in a real sexual partner.  You have discussed, in your posts, problems with ED and DE.  Absent some psychological or medical reason, those can be cured by abstaining from porn abuse, aka dopamine abuse, but some report it takes a long time.  I believe Gabe Deem said it took him about 9 months to get his mojo back.  Point being, I use 90 days as the gold standard; it works for many, but some take longer to get their swing back. 

Also, do you have tools?  If you don't have it, install K9.  No, it won't prevent you from accessing porn, but it will remind you you are a guy quitting porn, and sometimes that little tap on the shoulder is helpful.  During the hard 90, in the morning every day, first thing, and at night when you go to bed, it is helpful to ask "what am I?"  The answer should be "I am a guy quitting porn." 

Good luck on your journey. 

Peace.

Will I AM.
 

Jason

Member
I read all of your posts as I reboot.  Once again thank you for all of your advice.  I think the hardest part of rebooting is the hyper sexualized thoughts but like you I refuse to entertain them.  Recovery is beautiful and for me it doesn't seem natural but as the days turn into months it is actually amazing that I haven't look at pornography or did the search on the T.V or masturbated.  I take it all with grace though and I am just very thankful to be at this place in my life with people like you including this whole Reboot Nation.  However, I will always be in recovery and in the grace of God I will never let my guard down again.  The bullets of the principles of recovery and the support from you guys will always be loaded in my gun of sobriety pointing from a very safe distance away at the beast of porn and masturbation.  Jason
 

Jason

Member
I also wanted to say that William I am going to be very sad at your leaving the Reboot Nation and I hope and pray that once and awhile that you will return.  I also wanted to say have you ever considered writing a book on pornography and your personal story of overcoming it.  I think it would be awesome!!!!!!
 
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William

Guest
By my calculation I am 500 days clean.  Along the way I have defined myself as a newbie, as addicted, as struggling, as really struggling, as desperate to relapse, as days getting easier, to days where there are no problems.  I have defined myself as addicted, in recovery, as recovered, as cured.  I now know I will never be "cured".  I now know that for the rest of my life I will have days, have moments, when I wish a dopamine high could take all my problems away.  It never will.  It turns out I am human after all, like the other billions. It is not such a bad place.  I will NEVER relapse.  But I will NEVER not want to.  Days and weeks may go by when I it never occurs to me.  And then...it does.  I won't.  But the challenge will be there until it isn't. 

You can get clean.  I know.  I have done it.  There are many others here who have.  Then, on the other side of getting clean is staying clean.  Difficult, but less so than getting clean.  Nothing ever worth having was obtained without a fight, without a sacrifice, without suffering.  If you are a porn addict, getting clean is going to hurt.  Learn to love the hurt.  It is easy for me now.  But, if you are at the beginning, it is going to be difficult. 

So, let's go back to the beginning.  You think you have a porn problem.  It looks like a porn problem.  But it is not.  It is a dopamine problem.  Porn is just a button we push to get a dopamine high.  Get educated.  Watch this. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSF82AwSDiU

This is where your journey to freedom begins, this is where you start to take off the chains.  Take time to understand the problem, your problem, my problem.  Time to take off your chains.  I invite anyone reading this to this side of to free.  Free is still difficult, but free is not a slave.

Will I  AM.
 

lyon03

Respected Member
Damn powerful stuff. You are officially the reboot "Yoda". I agree with your approach. You're either in our you're out. I started this process, somewhat reluctantly I admit, because I hit rock bottom. Now, after just 33 days PMO free, I have such a burning hatred for this addiction, I won't even consider relapsing. I have attacked my addiction from so many angles, it feels like the D-Day landings. I worked harder at no-PMO the last month that I have at anything else. As Yoda said: "Do or do not. There is no try." Thanks brother.
 

jkkk

Well-Known Member
Amen, William.

You reflect on something that is very close to my story.

I was rebooted 3 years ago, after 1.5 years with no P or M. And then I screwed it. Thing is I never developed a full-blown relapse, but it was a "crouching" incremental relapse.

I became the worst kind of addict - one that thinks that he controls the addiction, not the other way around. One acting out, but not acting out too much, so as to always be in a position to tell himself that he's not doing "that bad".

If I was to put out a most awkward recommendation ever, I would recommend relapsing totally. At least you cannot fool yourself that you're doing good.

The thing with the burning hatred towards addiction is that this feeling goes away. Keeping oneself on guard requires, I think, a real and true lifestyle change, where you just limit your contact with triggers. Of course, triggers become less triggering over time. But they are still there. They will ALWAYS be. That is my experience.

So the lifestyle change is a solution. It might also be a solution to most problems human face now in their lives: detachment from your inner self, disconnection from others, constant information stream, over-worrying, to name a few. The lifestyle change aims at giving oneself true purpose and inner power to go ahead with life and what it brings along, for better and worse.

Being here, a part of community is very important not only in the first phases of reboot, but also, I believe, in the latter stages, when one enjoys a fair amount of stability.

One is never really out of this. This message seems a bit damning and hopeless, but I'm trying to find out the silver lining there: maybe addicts just need this kind of additional interaction that helps them be in contact with themselves and others? Because posting here is really a lot about helping ourselves (as you William, put it), even if it seems to be about others.
 

Cyrus

Member
My regular doctor suggested I try said meds due to my anxiety, but warned me it would make my ED worse as the side effects effect sex drives. Just wondering every ones thoughts on this? Would it help me reboot and recover or would it only make rebooting harder and take longer? Honestly, anxiety medication would not hurt me to be on or at least try it to see if it helps, however, I don't want it effecting my reboot and making it even harder than what it is already. What are others thoughts on taking prescribed Anxiety meds while trying to reboot? Would it help or make things worse??
 
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William

Guest
Aryangor just posted on Nofap:

(Taken from http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...t-look-does-it)

It Doesn?t Hurt to Look, Does It?

The real effect of pornography on relationships.
Published on March 7, 2014 by Heidi Reeder Ph.D. in I Can Relate

You might think viewing pornography can?t hurt a real-life relationship. Some even claim that erotic material impacts their relationships in positive ways. So a team of researchers at Florida State University developed an experiment to determine how consuming pornography affects adults' commitment to romantic relationships.

The research team recruited college students who were in heterosexual relationships and who viewed pornography on a regular basis. They were told the study was an investigation of ?self-control? and were randomly assigned one of two activities to abstain from for a period of three weeks. Half of the students were asked to avoid looking at all materials showing nudity or sex, including websites, videos, and magazines. They were encouraged to be honest and to record in a daily calendar if and when they were not successful. The others were asked to abstain from eating their favorite food. At the end of the three weeks, both groups were asked how committed they were to their relationship.

The Result:

The people who eliminated or significantly reduced their viewing of pornographic material were significantly more committed to their relationships than those who continued to view the material. These results held true for both men and women.

Feeling less committed to a relationship is one thing. But does the use of pornography also translate into an increased risk of infidelity? At least among college students, the answer appears to be yes. In a follow-up study, the researchers asked 240 men and women to fill out questionnaires on their pornography viewing habits, their relationship commitment, and how many people they ?hooked up? with in the last year, other than their current partner. They found that as pornography consumption increased, relationship commitment decreased, and the likelihood of having sex with others increased. The researchers concluded: ?Pornography consumption is not only related to weakened commitment in relationships but to the consequences of that decreased commitment, like infidelity.?


Why Is This Happening?

One way to answer this question is to consider the factors that predict relationship commitment. One is whether or not we perceive we have attractive alternatives to our existing relationship. When we believe that our prospect for attractive partners is abundant, we will be less committed to the relationship we already have. Interestingly, this phenomenon seems to hold true whether the alternatives are real and concrete, or whether the alternatives are only in our imagination. It doesn?t seem to matter if a potential partner is standing in front of us or if we?re viewing an attractive porn star on a computer. While porn actors are not really an option for most of us, spending time in their company can give us the impression that we live in a world with many available alternatives. And when we believe we have other attractive choices, we?re instinctively less committed to the partner we already have.

We may think it doesn?t matter where we place our attention, or that viewing pornographic materials will spice things up in bed with our existing partner. But what and whom we focus on, and what we choose to ignore, makes a big difference when it comes to maintaining our commitment to an existing relationship. If you value your relationship and want to remain loyal to your partner, be mindful of where you place your attention. Focus on your lover and the realness of that interaction and leave the fake thrills of pornography behind.


Heidi Reeder, Ph.D. is the author of the forthcoming book, Commit to Win (Hudson Street Press).

Find me on: Facebook, Twitter, and www.heidireeder.com.
Citation: Lambert, N. M., Negash, S., Stillman, T. F., Olmstead, S. B., & Fincham, F. D. (2012). A love that doesn't last: Pornography consumption and weakened commitment to one's romantic partner. Journal of Social and Clinical Psychology, 31(4), 410-438.

And I posted:

Gary Wilson just published this:

In my opinion nothing is analogous to Today's Internet porn, because nothing is analogous to sex.

There exists no analogous stimulus because porn use can shape and alter our brain's innate sexual circuits. There are no innate circuits for alcohol, nicotine, first-person shooter, black jack, etc. While Junk food is a supernormal stimulus, eating french fries for 10 years (age 12 >22) will not alter one's trajectory as a human being. You may be a bit fatter, and enjoy chips over apples, but you can change your diet in one day, instantly become healthier - and never look back.

However, 10 years of masturbating, everyday to 3-minute hard core videos, starting at age 12 will result in a definite impact by age 22.

Our sexual circuits will be shaped through sexual activity - there is no choice because sex is our most powerful natural reinforcer, and our genes top priority. The shaping of sexual circuits occurs at warp speed during adolescence, when the prime directive is to rewire the brain (pruning 100 billion connections) to everything associated with sex so that the mammal can successfully reproduce. An adolescent will be impacted, in ways that they will never know or recognize.

Forget everyday use. I sincerely believe that occasional porn use is still quite capable of affecting our tastes, our expectancies, our desires, and our perceptions. Old studies from the 1980's (on adults) bear this out as watching an hour of porn, 5 times over a few weeks resulted in huge changes in the users views on worsens rights, rape, date rape, etc. Similar studies found an immediate escalation to harder more "unusual porn", for nearly every participant. Again, these were adults.

SEE:
- http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/NN/B/C/K/V/_/nnbckv.pdf
- http://yourbrainonporn.com/effects-p...ly-values-1988
- http://yourbrainonporn.com/pornograp...isfaction-1988
- http://yourbrainonporn.com/pornograp...tion-rape-1982

Bottom line - sex is unlike anything else...in it's importance, in it's effects, and in the complex brain centers devoted to it.

? Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 12:02:04 AM by Gary Wilson 

Aryangor, as you know, for a porn addict, watching porn is cause and effect, stimulus and response. It is Pavlovian. If we experience porn, we get a dopamine high, whether we want it or not. We can choose to watch porn, that is a personal choice all of us can and do make. However, if we choose to watch porn, the dopamine response is automatic, whether we want it or not, it is simply going to happen. That is where the dopamine addiction begins and ends, in that moment. As you know, we are not addicted to porn, that is just the button we push to get a dopamine high. All of us have a choice to make: Push the button or do not push the button. We have to make that decision every day.

Peace.

Will I AM.

Guys, the most important thing you need to understand to get clean is a very simple truth:  the problem is happening in your head, above the belt, not below it.  Once you understand that, you can begin to overcome it.  Porn causes a chemical reaction in the brain.  It feels like a porn problem, but it is a dopamine problem.  Porn is just the button we push for a dopamine high.  The solution:  quit pushing the button.  This is your Christmas gift, the key to overcoming porn addiction.  Merry Christmas.   
 

Fapplemage

New Member
Hi William,
I followed a link to your post from somewhere else in this forum and have been reading a lot of your posts. First of all, thank you very much for taking the time to write this. It is very valuable to read this stuff from someone who has been through it and who is willing to invest the time to express his thoughts in such detail. I would like to ask you a few questions. You talk about hypersexualized thoughts. Can you elaborate on this a little bit?

The reason I ask is this. I am at 70 days hardmode, which means I have not PMOd for 70 days. No porn, no pictures, no MOing, and so on. I do have one big issue though, and that is sexual thoughts or fantasies. In particular, and this is a bit embarrassing to admit, I fantasize about how I have my first time with a woman after months of rebooting, what I tell her to do, how it would feel. This is also probably because I am a virgin in my 30s. Now, I have read a lot of posts on reddit and also here that talk about abstaining from fantasy as well. You talk about this too. My problem with this is that I have OCD and have an issue with intrusive thoughts. I had some huge issues with that a long time ago, and back then I learned that I should not try to control my thoughts, and that it is a bad idea to try to do so. So I let those thoughts happen, but, after reading your posts, I realize that I actually indulged in them. When they pop up, I keep thinking them, to the point where just the thought is about to make an ejaculation happen. At that point I stop thinking about it, but it's painful. I also had a wet dream a while back, and I remember having fantasies like that in the evening prior to it.

What would you recommend to me? First of all, my question is, are those fantasies that I describe above that what you refer to as "hypersexualized thoughts" - because I do not think about porn, it's my own fantasy with a real woman. Does this count too? Then, what should I do about those thoughts. I don't want to try to suppress them, but after reading your stuff, I realize that this is a really big problem. Do you think my 70 days are worthless now? I was feeling proud of having lasted so long, but now I feel like it could have been in vain. Last question is, I also struggle with internet addiction. Do you think that in order to beat the physiological effects of PMO addiction, I also need to eliminate internet addiction at the same time?

Either way, thank you for reading, and also thank you for writing those posts. They've been very helpful. I wish you a merry christmas!
 
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William

Guest
@ Fapplemage, thanks for the kind words.  I appreciate it.  I know this sounds a bit Mister Rogeresque, but, remember, we help ourselves by helping each other. 

You asked me to address hypersexual thoughts and OCD and intrusive thoughts.

First of all, I think your 70 day PMO streak is fantastic.  It is progress, regardless of whether you have used hypersexual thoughts, however, use of hypersexual thoughts in the reboot can be expected to delay the effectiveness of the reboot or make it less effective.  And when I say "used hypersexual thoughts" I really mean allowed thoughts of artificial sexual stimulation to cause a dopamine reward or high.  That is sort of like edging without touching yourself.  Too few of understand that our problem has almost nothing to do with what happens below the belt and is almost 100% about what happens above the belt, in the brain.  You see, the brain rewards what I will call lust by giving us a dopamine high when we feel that.  It is not sex that is rewarded per se--meaning it is, but the dopamine high is associated with lust, with looking, with seeking sex, and thoughts associated with that.  So if you are thinking of sex, even if you are not having it, even if you are not walking about looking for it, even if you are not expecting to get it, there is a good chance you are inadvertently giving yourself a dopamine high, and for porn addicts, aka dopamine addicts, that is just continuing to use, even without any physical stimulation.

Let's understand a few key concepts first.  And, forgive me, but I am going to be Mr. Obvious here to make a few basic points. 

Your question is in the context of whether the reboot is in vain due to sexual thoughts during it.  I don't think so, but I do think it will make it less effective.  Here is why.

Before High Speed Internet Porn there is little evidence of porn addiction.  We liked porn, the "old fashioned" kind, but though it fascinated us, there is little evidence we became addicted to.  When I say "addicted" I mean more than wanting to see it, I mean seeing it over and over and over , multiple times a day, until we came to like it over the real deal, sex, and until we developed the side effects of porn addiction such as erectile dysfunction and delayed ejaculation.  The thing about High Speed Internet Porn is that it offers endless novelty, endless different, even shocking, sexual images for our primitive brain's reward center to reward with a shot of dopamine.  The problem is that while on one level you are conscious pornographic images are not real people or actual sex, your brain's primitive reward center cannot distinguish the two, it gives both porn and attractive females a shot of dopamine, but due to the endless nature of porn, you can get a dopamine high multiple times a day, every day, for years.  You will never get that in reality; in reality we may see a few beautiful women every day, we cannot see hundreds, let alone hundreds in hypersexual scenarios. 

That use of porn does what we here call "rewiring the brain's reward pathways."  Our reward centers are, through the endless dopamine high porn allows for, rewired to reward porn over actual sex.  That is why, at that point, guys can't get it up to sex but only to porn, their brains have become wired to porn and away from sex. 

The purpose of the reboot is to "rewire" the brain back to reward sex, that is human physical contact with a real person. 

When you talk about having intrusive thoughts, if the thoughts are hypersexual in nature, if you are giving yourself a dopamine high by them, even if not PMOing, you are not helping the reboot process.  Why not?  Because if you are doing that you are continuing to reinforce the wiring that is other than wiring to reward actual sexual, physical, stimulation.  Do I think your 70 reboot has been in vain?--absolutely not--but it makes the reboot less successful.  The problem you may have, and many of us have had, is that when you do finally have your first sexual experience, you may have to use those hypersexualized thoughts in order to get through it.  Many of us in the reboot or early post reboot stage report having to think of porn to have sex, to get it up, and to get off.  That is not really what you are shooting for, what you are shooting for is to only think of, be with, and experience the woman you are with, and nothing more.  Be careful of the trap of thinking about porn or other sexual fantasies during sex, a lot fall into it.

Remember, this is a limited time in your life to achieve a lifetime of being PMO free, a limited time to rewire to women.  I know it is hard to give up fantasies, but have you asked yourself why?  It is the same reason it is hard to give up porn, fantasies release dopamine which we like, in fact we may love, it's the best drug in the world.  But if you want to get clean you have to get off that roller coaster, accept that in real life, while dopamine will still be around from time to time, you won't be getting it constantly, every day, multiple times a day, and in huge wallops.  Rewiring to actual sex means having real, often challenging, relationships with women who, and those relationships, while great, will never give you as much dopamine as porn or fantasy.  They will give you other great, better, things, but never as much dopamine.  Not possible. 

Porn is not just porn, it is thinking of it, remembering it, fantasies of it, fantasies of hypersexual scenarios, remembering it, etc.  Also, for the guy quitting--and this is a real danger for you--when quitting porn our reward center will trigger on a lot of stuff that is considered vanilla porn or even stuff that is sexual but not deemed porn.  Think bikini mags, Victoria's Secrets.  During the reboot it all must be avoided as you A) try and rebalance your dopamine levels back to preporn levels (aka "reboot"), and B) try to forge new reward pathways (rewire) to the real deal, sex.  I suggest you should not feel you have been ineffective, but less effective than you could be, make the adjustment, and plan on finding ways to avoid those hypersexual thoughts when they pop in there.  You can't avoid it 100%, but you can cut it back a lot.  As for the OCD thing, I think most of us here have a touch. 

And finally, you ask about internet addiction.  I don't know of any studies finding the internet was actually addictive.  High Speed Internet Porn is addictive, but the rest of it, I don't think so, in fact I spend a lot of time I used to waste seeking porn surfing the net.  It does not give me a dopamine high, but on the occasion I do have time on my hands it gives something else to do with my hand.  Pun intended.

Good luck on your journey, I hope this helps. 
 

jkkk

Well-Known Member
100% spot on and totally my experience.

To me giving up artificial stimulation, including "vanilla" stuff, is for life.

It's good to start with 90 days, but I reckon keeping the good fruit of the reboot requires constant choice to not artificially stimulate oneself, with anything. As you wrote here above, it is a choice we make every day.

Merry Christmas, Bill.
 

Fappy

Respected Member
Although my progress is dwarfed by others here, this is the longest ive gone without PMO in the last seven years! Just five days in and i feel great! I had some mad flatline yesterday and some bad irritability, but i  can definately feel the withdrawel symptoms, and i love it. It feels bad but its a sign the porn addiction is losing the fight, trying desperately to convince my brain to watch it.
No thanks, you dirty filthy demon whore! Stay in hell where you belong!
 
Guys, I know many of you try to abstain from masturbating and orgasm in addition to completely stop watching porn. The issue is that I've been only 19 days into my reboot process. I haven't watched P at all, but I have M'd three times and O'ed twice. I can affirm, however, that the three times I masturbated there was not a single image of porn or having sex. Only focusing on the feelings was enough to get me going. I know MO slows down the process of rebooting, but I don't want to stop it, I myself only want to stop watching those filthy images.

Within this 19 days I have discovered something that would have never occured to me before this journey: P leads to MO, but not the other way around. Sure, if your brain is telling you "Masturbate!" but your body doesn't feel like to do so (and you end up M'ing), you will either turn up to porn or fantasizing, or you will get bored and stop because your body is not responding to the masturbation process. However (like in my case), when you can really feel the sexual energy rushing throughout your entire body and there is no way to make love to a woman --because you don't have a partner or whatever other reason--,if you decide to masturbate, there will be no need of porn or fantasizing about having sex.

(PLEASE take into account that I'm not encouraging you, guys, to masturbate. I'm only speaking about myself and my own goals and experiences.)

The feeling of pre-cum and, eventually, semen flowing through, the tensing-relaxing cycles of the body's mucles, and pretty much every other sensation you can imagine feels incredibly amazing. When you watch porn, you are not aware of these subtle messages your body is telling to you and, because of that, you are missing a lot of the pleasure your own body can provide.

We shall dig a deep hole and bury porn forever!
Merry Christmas!  ;)
 
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