Porn is not an option
- Thread starter Blondie
- Start date
Blondie
Respected Member
Reading this book, I tell you what, I just want to shout from the rooftops.
I'm not a porn addict, and I NEVER have been. My brain is okay, and it always HAS been!
I'm not a porn addict, and I NEVER have been. My brain is okay, and it always HAS been!
I'm not a porn addict, and I NEVER have been. My brain is okay, and it always HAS been!
What if everyone here is not a porn addict? What if all our actions when it comes to porn, have always been on us and our choices? What if we have never been compelled by some "outside force" to look at it once? What if we have never be bullied by dopamine? What if we are NOT PORN JUNKIES? We are just bros and cowboys (and a few cowgirls) who liked to look at porn, because, well, naked bodies are hot. However, then we were unfortunately told by either religion, the recovery community, or society, that we had an "addiction" and our brains were "diseased" and "utterly fucked." Then the panic set in: "Oh shit, I have a problem!" "I have an addiction!" "My dick's not 12 inches like it used to be!" and we've never been normal since. In fact, the "problem" has only grown worse. Now we see ourselves as shit, constantly "relapsing" and going back to "the filth" (yes, my words). NOW, we actually have a compulsion, driven by fear, shame, more relapsing, and more fear!
But is this the actual truth?
If we're not porn addicts, why are we even in "recovery?" What's the point of recovery when your brain isn't fucked up to begin with? We're NOT diseased. We don't have cancer. Our brains are not "highjacked" by porn. So why do we choose to be helpless when we're not?
If you think your brain is fucked, you brain most definitely will be fucked, and most likely your actions too.
My journey here at RN has been twofold. Not looking at porn was my first reason, but just as importantly, I wanted to understand this whole matter of addiction, and why we do what we do, especially for myself. It's been a hell of a journey, and you all have helped me tremendously. However, I've had some real doubts about the Your Brain On Porn addiction model, that I've mostly kept to myself. Much of it doesn't make sense to me, but since I'm not a neurologist, or have any education in that particular field, I've never argued with it, or cared to even go there for the most part on my thread. However, after I relapsed two years ago, and experienced the repercussions of that event on my psyche and life, and then, getting back on track and "rebooting," I started to have some big questions about this whole thing.
No, I don't have the answers, but I have many questions, and I plan on finding the answers sooner than later. I'm not saying "It's all wrong," however, there has to be more nuance to these answers. Chemicals can't have that much power over us, they're just neurotransmitters. What makes us human is our very thoughts and soul. We are not our biochemistry. We tell the brain what to do. It takes its marching orders from us, not the other way around.
I've learned recently that the The Your Brain On Porn model is really just a modern iteration of the diseased brain model of addiction. Once I understood this fact, it made perfect sense why I've always had my reservations about writing about dopamine and shit on my thread. I don't think we're diseased losers who can't help themselves, and any philosophy or "science" that espouses that idea I reject right from the get go.
I've never written a success story here at RN, mostly because I've been obsessed with being two years "clean," and since that's never happened yet, I guess I haven't had any "success." Yes, that's a problem in of itself now that I think about it. However, if you ever read my thread, you would see many disjointed thoughts and philosophical musings about how to overcome this habit. Nevertheless, I can say this, you would see one thing that has remained constant and HAS given me true success.
WE HAVE CONTROL. WE ALWAYS HAD. ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS REACH OUT AND TAKE IT.
I'm not a porn addict, and I NEVER have been. My brain is okay, and it always HAS been!
I'm not a porn addict, and I NEVER have been. My brain is okay, and it always HAS been!
I'm not a porn addict, and I NEVER have been. My brain is okay, and it always HAS been!
What if everyone here is not a porn addict? What if all our actions when it comes to porn, have always been on us and our choices? What if we have never been compelled by some "outside force" to look at it once? What if we have never be bullied by dopamine? What if we are NOT PORN JUNKIES? We are just bros and cowboys (and a few cowgirls) who liked to look at porn, because, well, naked bodies are hot. However, then we were unfortunately told by either religion, the recovery community, or society, that we had an "addiction" and our brains were "diseased" and "utterly fucked." Then the panic set in: "Oh shit, I have a problem!" "I have an addiction!" "My dick's not 12 inches like it used to be!" and we've never been normal since. In fact, the "problem" has only grown worse. Now we see ourselves as shit, constantly "relapsing" and going back to "the filth" (yes, my words). NOW, we actually have a compulsion, driven by fear, shame, more relapsing, and more fear!
But is this the actual truth?
If we're not porn addicts, why are we even in "recovery?" What's the point of recovery when your brain isn't fucked up to begin with? We're NOT diseased. We don't have cancer. Our brains are not "highjacked" by porn. So why do we choose to be helpless when we're not?
If you think your brain is fucked, you brain most definitely will be fucked, and most likely your actions too.
My journey here at RN has been twofold. Not looking at porn was my first reason, but just as importantly, I wanted to understand this whole matter of addiction, and why we do what we do, especially for myself. It's been a hell of a journey, and you all have helped me tremendously. However, I've had some real doubts about the Your Brain On Porn addiction model, that I've mostly kept to myself. Much of it doesn't make sense to me, but since I'm not a neurologist, or have any education in that particular field, I've never argued with it, or cared to even go there for the most part on my thread. However, after I relapsed two years ago, and experienced the repercussions of that event on my psyche and life, and then, getting back on track and "rebooting," I started to have some big questions about this whole thing.
- Was my webcam use REALLY a progression of my addiction? and if so, is it really true that my "next progression" would be bonking a monkey?
- Was this stupid heartless act (to my Lady) really uncontrollable in the moment, and could I really "blame" this on my addiction when confessing my actions to her?
- Did my dick experience "problems" afterwards because I expected it to, or was it because it was "hooked on porn again"?
- Did I even experience withdrawals or did I only pretend to because everyone at RN has, so I needed to say something, right? I've never lied about this shit, but I might have embellished it here and there, and I have definitely overthought it, and automatically assigned any signs of depression, anxiety, headaches, to porn withdrawal symptoms. Is this truly being scientific? How do we even know if we can rightly differentiate between the two? Do we know?
- When I first discovered I had "PIED" after my first try at sex years ago at 31, how do I know it was porn and not that I was stressed because I was a virgin at 31? Or that, since I was a fundamentalist Christian for most my life until two years before I tried casual sex, I wasn't experiencing shame because I was "sinning" and thus it didn't work? Furthermore, since I found Your Brain On Porn right after that event, how do I know that every experience I've had with my dick "not working" since then, has not been influenced by the belief that it won't work because of my porn use? Do I really know for sure if it's my preconceived thoughts that are fucking my dick up? or porn that is fucking my dick up?
- Furthermore, has my man ever had any real problems besides the fact that I'm only human and sometimes it just doesn't want to come out and play?
- Did Dopamine come before god, or God before dopamine? I'm only slightly joking here. It's Dopamine.
- If detoxing from cocaine takes only a week or so, how can anyone claim with a straight face that detoxing from PORN could take longer? even up to months? It's not even a physical substance!
- Are we all of so obsessed with our dicks "not working," that we've fucked up our own dicks in the process? no matter what porn has or has not done to them?
No, I don't have the answers, but I have many questions, and I plan on finding the answers sooner than later. I'm not saying "It's all wrong," however, there has to be more nuance to these answers. Chemicals can't have that much power over us, they're just neurotransmitters. What makes us human is our very thoughts and soul. We are not our biochemistry. We tell the brain what to do. It takes its marching orders from us, not the other way around.
I've learned recently that the The Your Brain On Porn model is really just a modern iteration of the diseased brain model of addiction. Once I understood this fact, it made perfect sense why I've always had my reservations about writing about dopamine and shit on my thread. I don't think we're diseased losers who can't help themselves, and any philosophy or "science" that espouses that idea I reject right from the get go.
I've never written a success story here at RN, mostly because I've been obsessed with being two years "clean," and since that's never happened yet, I guess I haven't had any "success." Yes, that's a problem in of itself now that I think about it. However, if you ever read my thread, you would see many disjointed thoughts and philosophical musings about how to overcome this habit. Nevertheless, I can say this, you would see one thing that has remained constant and HAS given me true success.
WE HAVE CONTROL. WE ALWAYS HAD. ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS REACH OUT AND TAKE IT.
Last edited:
Blondie
Respected Member
I wrote this today on @Orbiter's thread, but I thought I'd post it here too. It's a quick summary of that book I just finished.
I have so much to think about! Life is good.
I think the questions you're asking here are imperative. I've been asking the same things for quite a while now on my thread. Have you read or heard about the book Freedom Model For Addictions? You can find it for free online. I just finished it this morning, and it has made me understand my "successes" and "failures" over the years with this habit. In a nutshell here is what it says.
And the same goes for you!
I have so much to think about! Life is good.
I think the questions you're asking here are imperative. I've been asking the same things for quite a while now on my thread. Have you read or heard about the book Freedom Model For Addictions? You can find it for free online. I just finished it this morning, and it has made me understand my "successes" and "failures" over the years with this habit. In a nutshell here is what it says.
- You and I are not "addicted." We never have been. And yes, this can be used as an "excuse" even if we're not conscious of it.
- Our brains are NOT mush from porn. We have control over them. We always have. And yes, this can be used as an "excuse" even if we're not conscious of it.
- We have never "relapsed" even once in our lives, because we're not "addicts." We've only chosen it over something else.
- We have freely chosen to go back, time and time again, because we truly believe that porn brings us greater happiness than abstaining does, EVEN WITH THE NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES. It's as simple as that. No need for moralizing or shame.
- Humans are constantly on the prowl for the "pursuit of happiness" and there is NO WAY AROUND THIS FACT
- The only way to stop this habit, is to stop focusing on the negatives (we all know those!) but rather on the positives of what a porn free life would look like.
- If you and I truly see that the benefits of a porn free life are better than the benefits of a life of porn (yes there are many benefits to looking at porn. Let's stop pretending there's not) then we will voluntarily stop this behavior. Why? Because the "pursuit of happiness." Humans can't help themselves from not wanting their lives to be better, it's as simple as that.
- If we can picture "abstinence" or dare I say it, even "moderation" in our lives as a happier life than non-stop porn viewing, then there is no "fighting the addiction" or "fighting the urges." If you like ice cream better than chocolate cake. If ice cream truly brings you greater happiness. Do you really have to fight the "urge" not to eat chocolate cake? Of course not! The same is true in regards to porn. But you have to truly believe, that abstinence IS THE HAPPIER OPTION.
- If you and I feel on some deep level, that a porn-free life is not as happy a life, as a life of viewing porn, we WILL EVENTUALLY RETURN TO IT. You can bet your life on that. No matter if you're twelve days clean, one month clean, or almost two years clean (me!), it's a guaranteed fact you'll return. And why wouldn't you? Who doesn't want to be happy? There's no reason to feel shame about this either. It's just a fact of life. We all want to be happy!
And the same goes for you!
Last edited:
new reality
Active Member
Quite a lot to think about. You almost certainly know more about The Freedom Model than I do, since you actually finished the book, although I've probably listened to more of the podcasts.
Maybe I'll start here. Several years ago on a similar forum to this one, I wrote a post about how I once quit consuming sugary food and drink (basically anything with added, refined sugar). I've basically retained that lifestyle ever since, although there have been times when it was more like avoiding sugar 90 per cent of the time or whatever. Most days I don't have any refined sugar.
Anyway, it was pretty easy to do. I just started reading ingredients lists, learning the different names for sugar (e.g. glucose syrup), blah blah blah. There were probably mild withdrawals, and sometimes sugar is probably a little convenient if you want to temporarily make your brain more sharp or improve concentration or something (that said, alcohol seems to do that too, but does it really? Maybe it improves concentration but in a kind of "dumb" way or something lol).
Was it a big deal and a "relapse" if I did eat some sugar? No.
Did I join a forum for sugar addicts? No.
You can probably think of other differences. And I was a big sugar user for many years before I decided to quit (to lose weight).
So quitting porn and similar online addictions should, I think, be more like my experience of quitting sugar.
Moving on for now, I do remember experiencing crazy withdrawals! And also some really pleasant "highs" you could say, while doing "recovery". But maybe they weren't so much to do with just quitting porn etc. I also quit some highly toxic "friendships", for example, and made changes in other unhealthy relationships. Both being in toxic relationships, and quitting those relationships, can put you through a rollercoaster. Plus, I had a theory that the withdrawals could largely be explained by the fact that I went from orgasming very often to being a semen retainer. Maybe it's just a big adjustment for the body. On the other hand, like I mentioned in a post on my journal recently, if you do something like go travelling while being around people 99 per cent of the time and not having much privacy, you might find it much easier to go PMO and MO-free.
Maybe that's enough! Maybe we don't need to be total experts on every aspect of this stuff.
GBS
Respected Member
Thanks @Blondie and indeed @new reality for the amazing perspective. I do actually like it a lot. Now I won’t bang the drum for the addicts perspective, although as a 12 step (completed) devotee and a regular at SAA Meetings, it’s hard not to look for logic…..but I do like the “I’m not an addict“ mantra. Psychologically it seems very helpful as long as one understands this is about choice freedom. That “freedom” needs the utmost respect. To some (SAA types) it would be an easy excuse to go back. They (a bit ”we”) can’t exercise free choice. They need the school masterly dictatorial regime method of recovery. They have less backbone. They are weak. But, and crucially, they know they are weak. And their giving in and handing their recovery over to a higher power is their own way out of the mire.
That could be laughed at….I fully realise that….but it happens to be the truth.
What I liked most about what you wrote was
Gary Wilson’s body of work, something I hung on to, espoused the basic theory that high speed internet porn access was a suicide pill for young men. The Coolidge Effect, we all crave novelty, was front and centre and spiralling out of control was borderline inevitable. Our brains weren’t turned to mush, but they were altered. The neural pathways were widened, and our dopamine craving could be so easily satisfied that doom was the only likely result. This could be wrong, but it sure as hell sounded right to me and it made me look at what I had done to myself. I think if I had just been told “hey GBS, you can choose “ I am not sure that would have been a strong enough message. So, I guess I am just quietly waving a flag for the people who need to be in a more correctional facility type recovery pattern.
I will shut up now.
GBS
That could be laughed at….I fully realise that….but it happens to be the truth.
What I liked most about what you wrote was
….because this is where surely all methods of recovery converge. If we reckon we truly would be happier being the person who watches porn then go ahead. But that needs to be unpicked very carefully so that it doesn’t get read as permission. I know that I loved MOing to porn, but I also know it hurt my wife and it made me a less nice person. I still chose it. Maybe I was out of control, maybe I wasn’t. We all seek happiness but do we know the price?
Gary Wilson’s body of work, something I hung on to, espoused the basic theory that high speed internet porn access was a suicide pill for young men. The Coolidge Effect, we all crave novelty, was front and centre and spiralling out of control was borderline inevitable. Our brains weren’t turned to mush, but they were altered. The neural pathways were widened, and our dopamine craving could be so easily satisfied that doom was the only likely result. This could be wrong, but it sure as hell sounded right to me and it made me look at what I had done to myself. I think if I had just been told “hey GBS, you can choose “ I am not sure that would have been a strong enough message. So, I guess I am just quietly waving a flag for the people who need to be in a more correctional facility type recovery pattern.
I will shut up now.
GBS
new reality
Active Member
Then relapses shouldn't be such a big deal in recovery circles? "I relapsed, but what do you expect? I'm weak and powerless and all that."
This aspect of recovery groups gets a lot of criticism in The Freedom Model. People relapse and it's like the end of the world, then they go on a binge before attempting recovery again.
You're right, whatever your strategy is, you shouldn't over-simplify and think, oh, maybe watching porn makes me happier than not watching it. But if you calmly weigh up the pros and cons of using and not using, I doubt you'll decide to be a heavy porn user.
To criticise The Freedom Model a little, I sometimes get a little annoyed when they go on about how we are so in control of everything we do. Like I mentioned in my journal, sometimes things like trauma and strong emotions can make it hard to seem so in control. I guess we get into "compatiblist free will" territories here.
I do like it when The Freedom Model suggests learning other ways of responding to such difficulties, instead of going back to old habits that may not be serving us.
Disclaimer: I don't have all the answers lol
Blondie
Respected Member
I love this, @new reality, this is the kind of conversation I was hoping for.
I love your story about quitting sugar. I have a similar story. I used to drink a shit load of Coke all throughout my teens and early 20s. However, one random day I read an article in a Men's Health mag that said I should cut out Coke because of its sugar content. I thought that was a great idea, so I did just that and never looked back. BAM! All there was was a decision on my part, there was no moralizing or addiction fears, and definitely no fears of relapsing! Then last year, twenty years later, I got really sick and suddenly wanted some Coke because that's what I used to drink when I was sick as a kid. Thus, I "relapsed" and had some Coke to make me feel better. I thought about throwing the rest of it out after a few days, but I decided to have a full on relapse and drink every single can to my great satisfaction. Funny enough, I've had no urges to drink Coke since this slip up. It was only a random event and it was helpful to my situation.
I wish we would do the same thing for porn as we do for any other addictions.
A completely new environment makes you change your habits. It's as simple as that.
This is a great conversation!
Keep killing it.
I love your story about quitting sugar. I have a similar story. I used to drink a shit load of Coke all throughout my teens and early 20s. However, one random day I read an article in a Men's Health mag that said I should cut out Coke because of its sugar content. I thought that was a great idea, so I did just that and never looked back. BAM! All there was was a decision on my part, there was no moralizing or addiction fears, and definitely no fears of relapsing! Then last year, twenty years later, I got really sick and suddenly wanted some Coke because that's what I used to drink when I was sick as a kid. Thus, I "relapsed" and had some Coke to make me feel better. I thought about throwing the rest of it out after a few days, but I decided to have a full on relapse and drink every single can to my great satisfaction. Funny enough, I've had no urges to drink Coke since this slip up. It was only a random event and it was helpful to my situation.
I wish we would do the same thing for porn as we do for any other addictions.
I hear this. I cut back from caffeine years ago, and I felt more withdrawals than I ever have when cutting back on porn. It was a nightmare, but only for a few days. I just don't think I've ever experienced any true withdrawals from quitting porn, or if I have, I can't ever pin point it exactly, unlike with coffee. True, my dick had some problems, but even that I have some questions as to what was actually happening. I'm undecided on this.
I think this is a valid point. It's a big change to switch like that. The body has to readjust.
Truth. I've said this for years. Every habit you swear you "have to do," can be changed instantly by doing something like you mentioned above, that is, taking a trip for a month, or hell, going to jail. I hear they're very organized there.
A completely new environment makes you change your habits. It's as simple as that.I totally agree with you. My only hope is I can understand enough to not only help myself and gain clarity, but also anyone else who has been "struggling" with this stuff.
This is a great conversation!
Keep killing it.
Blondie
Respected Member
Day 578
I have no problem at all with you banging the drum for the 12 step program. I know you like it, which is great, and what is more, it seems to have helped you, which is even better. You know my motto, if it works for you, great! I can say until very recently though, I never knew anything about 12 steps, or even cared to know, that is, either their history, their founder, their ideas, nothing whatsoever. My thought was, that's what some people do, and that's great. However, over the last month, I've been doing a lot of reading as you know, and it's only been then, that I've realized that almost everything that I've been doing at RN for years, has been influenced greatly by AA and its offshoots: the whole idea of recovery, of group meetings (in person or online), counting days, relapses, the diseased brain model, an addict for life. All these ideas more or less stem historically from AA. This I did not know. And this has been fascinating to understand. I almost feel stupid now because I've been upholding and spouting many of these ideas in my writing here at RN for years, without really knowing the intellectual background of much of it. Thus, diving into these matters and challenging myself intellectually with new ideas has been rewarding and fun. I might come across like I'm ON THEIR SIDE sometimes, but often, I'm just mussing on the idea and thinking it through, that's how I do things.
Now as far as your wife and you, yes that's different, and is a moral issue, however, at least for myself and my relationship (which is the only thing I feel comfortable talking about), the moral issue isn't the porn per se, it's the lying and hiding that is the moral problem, and what hurts her (and women in general) the most. Of course, the cams were the biggest issue for us because that was breaking the bounds of my promise to her. She's only cool with porn, so cams were rightly a shit storm. Of course, and this goes back to my point above. If you're being honest about your porn use to your girl, and she's cool with it, and you do it with moderation and don't have a problem, who am I to say you're wrong and should change your life? Again, that's my philosophy of "to each their own." Many here might disagree with that sentiment, and that's fine.
I use to wonder what a woman would rather hear from her man confessing his shit. Would she rather hear he was addicted with no "control" over his actions? or that he acted like an ass but was going to own it? Now I know the answer. Women always, always, want you to own your shit. My lady and I talked openly about this yesterday. It was a great conversation. And she thanked me for owning it, all of it. She's reading this book with me, and she feels it's considerably better than the model I've been following for a long time now. Again, I say, to each their own.
Good morning, friend! This is a great discussion.
I have no problem at all with you banging the drum for the 12 step program. I know you like it, which is great, and what is more, it seems to have helped you, which is even better. You know my motto, if it works for you, great! I can say until very recently though, I never knew anything about 12 steps, or even cared to know, that is, either their history, their founder, their ideas, nothing whatsoever. My thought was, that's what some people do, and that's great. However, over the last month, I've been doing a lot of reading as you know, and it's only been then, that I've realized that almost everything that I've been doing at RN for years, has been influenced greatly by AA and its offshoots: the whole idea of recovery, of group meetings (in person or online), counting days, relapses, the diseased brain model, an addict for life. All these ideas more or less stem historically from AA. This I did not know. And this has been fascinating to understand. I almost feel stupid now because I've been upholding and spouting many of these ideas in my writing here at RN for years, without really knowing the intellectual background of much of it. Thus, diving into these matters and challenging myself intellectually with new ideas has been rewarding and fun. I might come across like I'm ON THEIR SIDE sometimes, but often, I'm just mussing on the idea and thinking it through, that's how I do things.
I get this. I don't like it for myself, but I understand. Just the thought of not having control over myself makes me feel hopeless and want to hide from the world. But to each their own. The whole handing it over to a higher power is fine too, but then again, for me, that just makes it more complicated, and I start intellectualizing about "God" more than the problem I'm trying to get over. Again, to each their own.
No laughing here. We all have to do what's best for us.
This IS the key point and yes, much thought needs to put here, and with great nuance. Now as far as you saying this idea might give one "permission" to keep looking, I would agree, but only in the sense that perhaps for some porn users, moderation would not be a bad thing, IF THAT'S WHAT THEY DESIRED and COULD PULL OFF. Obviously that flies in the face of the AA model and many religious folks too, which I understand, however, one thing I like about this model is that it's not moralistic, and rightly sees that everyone's history with porn is different, and thus, a one size fits all approach does not work for many, and sometimes, can even exacerbate the problem. The book gives a statistic (that I'm too lazy to find, but I'll post it when I find it) that says that the majority of "alcoholics" become moderate drinkers later in their life. Now this is something I've never heard of once in my life, and if it's even half true, you would never know it living in America and the culture I'm steeped in. It's certainly not a theme in any Hollywood movie that's for sure. We all know intuitively, even if we know nothing of AA or its beliefs, that "one drink equals a drunk," or whatever. This is the culture I live in and the message you hear everyday. So that statistic is utterly shocking if true. However, all I can say is this fact is interesting and something to think about. Moderation might work for some, maybe even most, but probably not for anyone here at RN.
Now as far as your wife and you, yes that's different, and is a moral issue, however, at least for myself and my relationship (which is the only thing I feel comfortable talking about), the moral issue isn't the porn per se, it's the lying and hiding that is the moral problem, and what hurts her (and women in general) the most. Of course, the cams were the biggest issue for us because that was breaking the bounds of my promise to her. She's only cool with porn, so cams were rightly a shit storm. Of course, and this goes back to my point above. If you're being honest about your porn use to your girl, and she's cool with it, and you do it with moderation and don't have a problem, who am I to say you're wrong and should change your life? Again, that's my philosophy of "to each their own." Many here might disagree with that sentiment, and that's fine.
This is a key question, and the book goes in great depth about this. I'll be writing more about this because I'm trying to work it out myself, but I'll say this. I think all "addicts" know the price, but they're willing to pay it to feel happiness. The only problem is, we often don't own this fully, and we blame it on the "addiction" or "dopamine" or whatever. I damn well knew the price I was paying when I went on the cam site last time I did it. I chose my short term happiness over the long term happiness I have with a stable relationship. For whatever reason, I thought that happiness would be better and more fulfilling than the happiness of a "drama free" relationship. I had complete control over myself. Sure my brain is hardwired to porn, just like it's hardwired to drive a car. But I'm no car junkie, just like I'm no porn junkie. I damn well knew what I was doing. I was seeking happiness, and it seemed to me at the time, it was a better happiness than the happiness I have with my girl. We all have control over our actions. Always. And our actions will always be guided by our values of what we think brings us the most happiness. If you really think you're "missing out" by abstaining from porn, you will always return, eventually. And no one should feel bad about that. Who doesn't want to be happy? I could never judge a man, or a woman, who wants to be happy. If I really knew, deep down, that true happiness is found in a stable relationship, built on trust, and keeping your word, and the feelings of peace that that brings to a man, I would have never gone down that road. I wouldn't have to even fight the "urge." There would be nothing to fight! But for whatever reason, my values were confused about that topic at the time, and I chose something that made me feel great happiness. And I had a hell of a goodtime, and to even act like I didn't, would be disingenuous. But of course, I had to come back, like I knew I would, and suffer the consequences for my purposeful choice. It was a happy choice at the time, but not for the long term.
I use to wonder what a woman would rather hear from her man confessing his shit. Would she rather hear he was addicted with no "control" over his actions? or that he acted like an ass but was going to own it? Now I know the answer. Women always, always, want you to own your shit. My lady and I talked openly about this yesterday. It was a great conversation. And she thanked me for owning it, all of it. She's reading this book with me, and she feels it's considerably better than the model I've been following for a long time now. Again, I say, to each their own.
Last edited:
Blondie
Respected Member
Well, @GBS and @new reality, I'm shit out of time for now, but I love this conversation.
I will say this though. Yesterday we went riding out in the mountains and had an amazing day. I damn near cried a few times thinking about all of this that I've been writing about. I was smiling the whole time. Why? Because I feel free. Not free because of my "number" though, yes, I'll probably keep posting that. But free, in the knowledge that I'm not fucked up. I can't begin to express how bad this message has been for me. For my psyche. For my soul. The message of the diseased mind (Your Brain On Porn). The message of the "relapse," because we all know I'm a "master" at that. The message of "once an addict, always an addict." The message of "you have no control." The message of "sex addict." The message of learned helplessness. All of these messages might be well meaning, and they certainly are from everyone here, but they have utterly fucked me up over the years. In fact, when I have "relapsed" over the last seven years, this message has only made it worse. Because, as soon as I reach for that first picture with a hot ass (not even porn yet), I hear thoughts saying: "Blondie, of course you're doing this, you piece of shit. This only proves you ARE AN ADDICT. A SEX ADDICT! You see, you brain IS fucked up and wired to porn, for the rest of your days. You are obviously sick in the head, and have a disease, just like a patient with cancer. But unlike them, who can at least have treatment and often fully recover, there's no help for you, you'll always be sick, even if you haven't looked at porn for twenty fucking years!" This message, my friends, when I hear it in those crucial moments, makes me want to look at porn 20x more than I ever would have. Why? Because why not? I'm fucked. I'm an addict. It's dopamine. I've just proven "I have no control!" so I might as well act like it. And if I'm alreadly fucked up, and have fucked up, I might as well GO ALL THE WAY. This is often how drug overdoses happen by the way. They think "they've lost it all," and thus, go all the way. Poor bastards.
This message has killed me, and dare I say it, it's harmed me just as badly as porn.
I'm free
I'm okay
My mind is sharp
I'm not fucked
I have control
Like I have control of my horse
Life is good
Be honest
Love
Die in peace
With everyone you know
I have much to think about.
But I'm going to smile today, as I ride into the sunset a free man.
Love you all
Do what works for you
I will say this though. Yesterday we went riding out in the mountains and had an amazing day. I damn near cried a few times thinking about all of this that I've been writing about. I was smiling the whole time. Why? Because I feel free. Not free because of my "number" though, yes, I'll probably keep posting that. But free, in the knowledge that I'm not fucked up. I can't begin to express how bad this message has been for me. For my psyche. For my soul. The message of the diseased mind (Your Brain On Porn). The message of the "relapse," because we all know I'm a "master" at that. The message of "once an addict, always an addict." The message of "you have no control." The message of "sex addict." The message of learned helplessness. All of these messages might be well meaning, and they certainly are from everyone here, but they have utterly fucked me up over the years. In fact, when I have "relapsed" over the last seven years, this message has only made it worse. Because, as soon as I reach for that first picture with a hot ass (not even porn yet), I hear thoughts saying: "Blondie, of course you're doing this, you piece of shit. This only proves you ARE AN ADDICT. A SEX ADDICT! You see, you brain IS fucked up and wired to porn, for the rest of your days. You are obviously sick in the head, and have a disease, just like a patient with cancer. But unlike them, who can at least have treatment and often fully recover, there's no help for you, you'll always be sick, even if you haven't looked at porn for twenty fucking years!" This message, my friends, when I hear it in those crucial moments, makes me want to look at porn 20x more than I ever would have. Why? Because why not? I'm fucked. I'm an addict. It's dopamine. I've just proven "I have no control!" so I might as well act like it. And if I'm alreadly fucked up, and have fucked up, I might as well GO ALL THE WAY. This is often how drug overdoses happen by the way. They think "they've lost it all," and thus, go all the way. Poor bastards.
This message has killed me, and dare I say it, it's harmed me just as badly as porn.
I'm free
I'm okay
My mind is sharp
I'm not fucked
I have control
Like I have control of my horse
Life is good
Be honest
Love
Die in peace
With everyone you know
I have much to think about.
But I'm going to smile today, as I ride into the sunset a free man.
Love you all
Do what works for you
Last edited:
Blondie
Respected Member
"People exist in all sorts of voluntarily maintained engagements with which
they are nonetheless dissatisfied – jobs, careers, relationships, living
situations, and of course habits such as using alcohol and other drugs. But
as dissatisfying and painful as these involvements can be, people do not
move on from them until they believe they have a happier option available
to them; a better job, a better career, a better relationship, or a better living
situation. Until a credibly happier option is seen, they feel stuck. This
applies to habits such as heavy substance use too."
Tonight, I ask myself this question. Have I found happier options for myself than 24 hour porn over the last seven years? I know I have most of the time, but sometimes, I feel the scales of Lady Justice seems quite close to level. I need to think more on this.
they are nonetheless dissatisfied – jobs, careers, relationships, living
situations, and of course habits such as using alcohol and other drugs. But
as dissatisfying and painful as these involvements can be, people do not
move on from them until they believe they have a happier option available
to them; a better job, a better career, a better relationship, or a better living
situation. Until a credibly happier option is seen, they feel stuck. This
applies to habits such as heavy substance use too."
Tonight, I ask myself this question. Have I found happier options for myself than 24 hour porn over the last seven years? I know I have most of the time, but sometimes, I feel the scales of Lady Justice seems quite close to level. I need to think more on this.
Last edited:
Blondie
Respected Member
Here's that quote and statistics from the book, @GBS. It's interesting for sure. Make what you will of it though. It sure was news to me. At least in my neck of the woods in America, you would never get the impression, either from movies, media, or the cultural attitudes of "addiction" or "alcoholics," that post users could ever be anything other than alcoholics for the rest of their lives, even if they never drank again. Thus, any idea of "moderation" seems to be ridiculous to the ears, which was why when I read those statistics, I couldn't believe it. Maybe they're bunk? I don't know, but there you go nonetheless.
Warning: this isn't an excuse for everyone to become "moderate porn consumers" over night. It's just an interesting thought to think about. You would need to read the book from cover to cover to understand what the authors are implying with giving the option of moderation.
"People drink and drug the way they prefer to, and they can change what
they prefer by thinking differently about their options. We have evidence
that people do change what they prefer regarding substance use. The most
convincing evidence regards alcohol use. Let’s start with a study conducted
by the NIAAA and the Census Bureau: The 1992 National Longitudinal
Alcohol Epidemiologic Survey (NLAES; National Institutes of Health,
1998).
The NLAES was a survey of 43,000 people in the general public from
whom they found 4,600 who fit the diagnosis of alcoholism during their
lives a year or more prior to the survey. The significance of this is
important. Most studies of people with substance use problems come from
small samples gathered from only those who show up at treatment facilities
or other institutional settings. This study looked beyond those places to get
the full breadth of people with substance use problems. It gives a more
accurate, nonbiased picture of the full range of people with substance use
problems. It analyzes those who seek treatment as well as those who don’t.
The results from studies like this are more significant and telling than
almost any other type of research in the field.
The status at the time of the study of those 4,600 who had ever fit the
diagnosis of “alcohol dependence” (i.e., “alcoholic”) was as follows:
Yes. Half of the “alcoholics” had become moderate drinkers. This is not an
anomaly either. Data collected in a similar survey conducted 10 years later,
again by the NIAAA and the Census Bureau, had similar results. The
National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions, or
NESARC (National Institutes of Health, 2010), found that the status at the
time of the study of those who fit the diagnosis of alcohol dependence a
year or more prior to the survey was as follows:
and do become moderate drinkers."
Warning: this isn't an excuse for everyone to become "moderate porn consumers" over night. It's just an interesting thought to think about. You would need to read the book from cover to cover to understand what the authors are implying with giving the option of moderation.
"People drink and drug the way they prefer to, and they can change what
they prefer by thinking differently about their options. We have evidence
that people do change what they prefer regarding substance use. The most
convincing evidence regards alcohol use. Let’s start with a study conducted
by the NIAAA and the Census Bureau: The 1992 National Longitudinal
Alcohol Epidemiologic Survey (NLAES; National Institutes of Health,
1998).
The NLAES was a survey of 43,000 people in the general public from
whom they found 4,600 who fit the diagnosis of alcoholism during their
lives a year or more prior to the survey. The significance of this is
important. Most studies of people with substance use problems come from
small samples gathered from only those who show up at treatment facilities
or other institutional settings. This study looked beyond those places to get
the full breadth of people with substance use problems. It gives a more
accurate, nonbiased picture of the full range of people with substance use
problems. It analyzes those who seek treatment as well as those who don’t.
The results from studies like this are more significant and telling than
almost any other type of research in the field.
The status at the time of the study of those 4,600 who had ever fit the
diagnosis of “alcohol dependence” (i.e., “alcoholic”) was as follows:
- 27.8% were drinking in a way diagnosable as “alcohol abuse” or “alcohol dependence”
- 22.3% were abstinent
- 49.9% were “drinking without abuse or dependence” (i.e., drinking
moderately)
Yes. Half of the “alcoholics” had become moderate drinkers. This is not an
anomaly either. Data collected in a similar survey conducted 10 years later,
again by the NIAAA and the Census Bureau, had similar results. The
National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions, or
NESARC (National Institutes of Health, 2010), found that the status at the
time of the study of those who fit the diagnosis of alcohol dependence a
year or more prior to the survey was as follows:
- 25% drinking in a way diagnosable as “alcohol dependence”
- 18.2% were abstinent
- 56.8% were drinking without dependence (i.e., drinking moderately)
and do become moderate drinkers."
Last edited:
Blondie
Respected Member
This is a beautiful point, @new reality. I like how you say "calmly" too. Because it's the exact opposite of how we always do it, and I'm guilty of that mentality. That is, we say we must "Go to battle with it" or, "Fuck Porn!" (my words) either way, we've personified this thing that is neither "evil" or "good" in of itself, and we've given it "great mysterious powers" that it's never had. What is worse, we have taken away the power we have within us and given it to a "substance" that we're trying to "fight."
I have yet to write a list in a calm way of the pros and cons of my porn use. Not that I remember anyway, and if I have done so, it would have been in the mindset of shame, fear, guilt of relapses, and the mindset that I "must quit."
The best mindset would be like yourself with quitting sugar, or myself with quitting Coke. Just rational decisions with no fear tactics, shame or fears of relapsing. In some ways, this method is so simple it's almost insanely difficult.
I can see your point here, it is a point of philosophy. I agree with it more or less, but there's still much I need to figure out as I reread it and post about it. For me, it's very freeing to know it's all within my control and it always has been. I love owning that truth. Because, if I don't have power over myself and my actions, then who or what does? It's obviously a fascinating question philosophically speaking.
Gold.
I couldn't say it better myself. I'm just trying to figure this out and understand how this works. It's important for us to be asking the big questions. I prefer that than having big answers, though I wouldn't mind a few those either.
Best.
Last edited:
GBS
Respected Member
Thanks mate.
Honestly honestly your writings these last few days have really stirred up my thinking…in a good way. Tonight I went to Sex Addicts Anonymous meeting. 15 of us there. I know them all. It opens with the same blurb every week…”Good evening gents. Pleae put your phone to silence. Welcome to the x meeting of SAA. Who are we? We are are sex addicts. Our addiction nearly destroyed our lives but we found freedom through the recovery program of SAA….blah dI blah di blah” …..and I’m sitting there thinking….”hang on….what if I’m not an addict? Indeed what if none of us are?” Is it a helpful revelation? Is it actually a revelation.
Later on there is a reading from the SAA green book bible all about step 8 (where you become willing to make amends to those you harmed). There is constant reference to the disease of sex addiction. Again, my mind is whirring. What if I’m not an addict and didn’t have a disease? Does it help me?
Just scrolling back 15 minutes to before the meeting started I am talking to one of the guys….”you ok?” I ask. X replies “not great actually”. We converse. He‘s consumed (he says) with constant almost torturous sexual fantasy. He says he was working from home today and on his own (we all know this is hyper triggering). . So we talk for 5 minutes. I tell him that I don’t have the silver bullet answer, but I suggest he understands as much as he can. I recommend the Your brain on porn body of work and the YouTube TedTalk about The Great Porn Experiment. He thanks me. I also said that I am, after much thought, leaning towards the position that we’re not going to be in recovery for the rest of our lives. It’s giving in before we start. I caution Mr X that this is just my view and many in the meeting would scoff and say that is not committed to the SAA CORE “just for today” mantra. And another cliché - the world record for abstinence is one day yadda yadda yadda. He nods in agreement that he’ll keep schtumm.
What’s my point? I think the moderation concept is perfectly fine, it just scares the living daylights out of me. If you want it and think you can do it, then do. Make sure you’re certain that being abstinent wouldn’t be better for you (and any partner of course), but it’s your choice. But did I say this to the guy at SAA? I did not. He was scared that his out of control porn habit (that he is 4 months clean from). is replaced with something else. I tell him he has to ride it out, no MO (he says he went 90 days without!!!) for as long as possible, feel the pain. Now….telling him he isn’t afflicted with something and he can control his own brain, he just needs to exercise his free choice….I think would have been unhelpful. Almost like a therapist saying to a manic depressive “pull yourself together “. He has serious flatline problems. And his brain sends him off down the porn replacement route, where fantasy is all he has left and his brain is gripping on so hard. Is he able to be “in control “ of his thoughts? No he isn’t. He’s tried and can’t shift them. I tell him I completely understood. He looks mildly comforted.
Many I think are like this.
What I do REALLY like about what you’ve opened my eyes to, is the concept that we not in recovery forever, because what are we recovering from? Not a disease. A habit? An affliction? Hair split time. We can be in control….be serene, be calm. Make a healthy choice where being without porn is almost certainly better than moderation, but it is a choice. Personally I couldn’t go back even if I wasn’t married. I know it made me morose, out of touch, not present.. I loved watching it, but I am 99.999% certain I would move from moderation to obsession very fast.
Thanks guys - I said I would shut up before…now I will. GBS
Blondie
Respected Member
My goodness, @GBS, this is a hell of a comment. I'm not sure where to start but I'll try.
First of all, I'll say this right up, I'm have no clue what I'm talking about when it comes to these ideas, I've just come upon them myself, so it's all very new to me. From my previous mindset, they're revolutionary. I use my thread as a place to write my thoughts out and try to understand them from the only perspective I can, my own life. Furthermore, I would highly suggest for anyone interested to read the book yourself. That way, you won't disagree with the ideas just because I didn't explain them correctly. If you don't like them after you've understood them properly, great, at least now you'll know why you disagree and will be better for it.
However, for the next while, I'll be going through the book, thinking and applying the principles to my life, and what that means for my journey. It should be interesting.
Moderation
This whole moderation thing is crazy, especially coming from the model I have come from (the model we've all come from), that is, the addicted brain/addict model. When I first read it a few days ago, I laughed my ass off, and said to myself "Are they fucking kidding? No way!" However, after giving it much thought, and seeing some of those statistics and finishing the book, I can see their point, but only after it's been explained thoroughly, again, please read the book. It should be noted that no where in the book do the authors recommend any of the three options for the reader, that is, full abstinence, moderation, or continued substance abuse. They do not see their role being one of teaching morality, or telling you what you should or should not do, but rather, they see themselves as being educators and letting the reader see the facts for themselves, and making their own decisions at the end of the day. Thus, they're not suggesting anyone do moderation per se, they're just letting people know (rightly in my opinion) that there is a wide gulf of options between full on substance abuse, and life abstinence. What is more, with the traditional model of addiction, often abstinence is chosen out of fear and shame, whereas, with this model, the reader can choose for themselves what they think will give them the best happiness after the facts have been shown for what they are. It's important to note that the authors returned to moderate alcohol use after fifteen or twenty years or something. So not exactly a short time of abstinence.
Now as far as your question, @GBS, it's a great one: what should you have told that man you were talking about? You we're right in not telling him, "Just use moderation" because he probably would have ran home and went crazy with his porn use. Moderation is not what he most likely would have experienced. Most likely, he would have binged like there was no tomorrow. But why would this happen? And doesn't this just prove that "moderation" is impossible for us "addicts"? The authors say no, not at all, and I'm starting to see how that can be so.
I'll use myself, for an example. You all know I've just learned this fact about myself, that is, I'm not an addict! Fuck yeah! I'm not an addict! I've been saying that now for four or five days with a shit eating grin on my face. However, do I really believe it? Do I really feel it deep down in my psyche? Do I know it like the I know the sky is blue? The answer is no. I do not. I do not believe it. I do not FEEL it inside my bones. I've spent far too many years reading books telling me I'm fucked, that I have a "disease", that I'm a sex addict, with thought after thought telling myself, "I have no control, I'm an addict, my brain has been "hijacked," there's an "outside force" that compels me to be compulsive, I don't even enjoy it (bullshit!) but I still do it because my "addicted brain" tells me to!, I relapsed after two years because I'm a no good son-of-a bitch porn addict! We all know these thoughts, because they're the nomenclature of recovery, at least, MY RECOVERY.
So the question is, could any son-of-a-bitch "addict," with shit thoughts like those, ever be "moderate" with his porn use? Of course not! NO WAY IN HELL. Simply because he doesn't believe he's actually FREE. He could say it all day long but that doesn't mean he believes it. He still has all those thoughts running through his sorrowful head, holding him back from the truth of his freedom, which makes him all the more compulsive when "set free." Why? Because he believes he's a compulsive sex addict.
To me, this makes sense, and this is why, the authors are not saying "go out there, you're free now, return to your XYZ and BE MODERATE!" Yes, you technically could, and whatever happens you shouldn't feel "shame" about it, nor is it a "relapse." However, until you extricate those shit thoughts and ideas out of your head, it's going to be real trickly to be a moderate porn user, if that's what you actually desire.
For the record, I have no intention of going "moderate" anytime soon, if ever. Nothings changed. And even if I did, I wouldn't dare try now with all those unhealthy "addict thoughts" still running through my head.
Hopefully I explained that concept a little better.
I have more thoughts on your comment, @GBS, but I ran out of time.
Best
As a man thinketh, so is he.
First of all, I'll say this right up, I'm have no clue what I'm talking about when it comes to these ideas, I've just come upon them myself, so it's all very new to me. From my previous mindset, they're revolutionary. I use my thread as a place to write my thoughts out and try to understand them from the only perspective I can, my own life. Furthermore, I would highly suggest for anyone interested to read the book yourself. That way, you won't disagree with the ideas just because I didn't explain them correctly. If you don't like them after you've understood them properly, great, at least now you'll know why you disagree and will be better for it.
However, for the next while, I'll be going through the book, thinking and applying the principles to my life, and what that means for my journey. It should be interesting.
Moderation
This whole moderation thing is crazy, especially coming from the model I have come from (the model we've all come from), that is, the addicted brain/addict model. When I first read it a few days ago, I laughed my ass off, and said to myself "Are they fucking kidding? No way!" However, after giving it much thought, and seeing some of those statistics and finishing the book, I can see their point, but only after it's been explained thoroughly, again, please read the book. It should be noted that no where in the book do the authors recommend any of the three options for the reader, that is, full abstinence, moderation, or continued substance abuse. They do not see their role being one of teaching morality, or telling you what you should or should not do, but rather, they see themselves as being educators and letting the reader see the facts for themselves, and making their own decisions at the end of the day. Thus, they're not suggesting anyone do moderation per se, they're just letting people know (rightly in my opinion) that there is a wide gulf of options between full on substance abuse, and life abstinence. What is more, with the traditional model of addiction, often abstinence is chosen out of fear and shame, whereas, with this model, the reader can choose for themselves what they think will give them the best happiness after the facts have been shown for what they are. It's important to note that the authors returned to moderate alcohol use after fifteen or twenty years or something. So not exactly a short time of abstinence.
Now as far as your question, @GBS, it's a great one: what should you have told that man you were talking about? You we're right in not telling him, "Just use moderation" because he probably would have ran home and went crazy with his porn use. Moderation is not what he most likely would have experienced. Most likely, he would have binged like there was no tomorrow. But why would this happen? And doesn't this just prove that "moderation" is impossible for us "addicts"? The authors say no, not at all, and I'm starting to see how that can be so.
I'll use myself, for an example. You all know I've just learned this fact about myself, that is, I'm not an addict! Fuck yeah! I'm not an addict! I've been saying that now for four or five days with a shit eating grin on my face. However, do I really believe it? Do I really feel it deep down in my psyche? Do I know it like the I know the sky is blue? The answer is no. I do not. I do not believe it. I do not FEEL it inside my bones. I've spent far too many years reading books telling me I'm fucked, that I have a "disease", that I'm a sex addict, with thought after thought telling myself, "I have no control, I'm an addict, my brain has been "hijacked," there's an "outside force" that compels me to be compulsive, I don't even enjoy it (bullshit!) but I still do it because my "addicted brain" tells me to!, I relapsed after two years because I'm a no good son-of-a bitch porn addict! We all know these thoughts, because they're the nomenclature of recovery, at least, MY RECOVERY.
So the question is, could any son-of-a-bitch "addict," with shit thoughts like those, ever be "moderate" with his porn use? Of course not! NO WAY IN HELL. Simply because he doesn't believe he's actually FREE. He could say it all day long but that doesn't mean he believes it. He still has all those thoughts running through his sorrowful head, holding him back from the truth of his freedom, which makes him all the more compulsive when "set free." Why? Because he believes he's a compulsive sex addict.
To me, this makes sense, and this is why, the authors are not saying "go out there, you're free now, return to your XYZ and BE MODERATE!" Yes, you technically could, and whatever happens you shouldn't feel "shame" about it, nor is it a "relapse." However, until you extricate those shit thoughts and ideas out of your head, it's going to be real trickly to be a moderate porn user, if that's what you actually desire.
For the record, I have no intention of going "moderate" anytime soon, if ever. Nothings changed. And even if I did, I wouldn't dare try now with all those unhealthy "addict thoughts" still running through my head.
Hopefully I explained that concept a little better.
I have more thoughts on your comment, @GBS, but I ran out of time.
Best
As a man thinketh, so is he.
Last edited:
Blondie
Respected Member
A gold quote addressing "Moderation" in the book
"We want to make the following point absolutely clear: as long as you are a
believer in addiction and recovery, you should never attempt to moderate or
use at all. That statement, of course, makes sense, considering your
adherence to the belief in powerlessness. If you believe a class of people
called addicts exists who cannot stop taking drugs and/or alcohol, once they
start, and that you might be one, then any level of use is a bad and
potentially fatal idea for you. As a believer, any attempt to adjust your
substance use will be undermined by your skepticism of free will over
substance use.
Free will is an absolute. Either you have it, or you don’t. If you believe
drugs (porn) can enslave you, abstain. If you believe in loss of control, abstain. If
you believe in recovery, abstain. If you believe in addiction, abstain. But
know that even with a sound rejection of addiction and recovery, you might
still determine that abstinence is best for you. Many do. If that is your
choice, we hope you can arrive there in the pursuit of happiness, rather than
through fear and panic."
"We want to make the following point absolutely clear: as long as you are a
believer in addiction and recovery, you should never attempt to moderate or
use at all. That statement, of course, makes sense, considering your
adherence to the belief in powerlessness. If you believe a class of people
called addicts exists who cannot stop taking drugs and/or alcohol, once they
start, and that you might be one, then any level of use is a bad and
potentially fatal idea for you. As a believer, any attempt to adjust your
substance use will be undermined by your skepticism of free will over
substance use.
Free will is an absolute. Either you have it, or you don’t. If you believe
drugs (porn) can enslave you, abstain. If you believe in loss of control, abstain. If
you believe in recovery, abstain. If you believe in addiction, abstain. But
know that even with a sound rejection of addiction and recovery, you might
still determine that abstinence is best for you. Many do. If that is your
choice, we hope you can arrive there in the pursuit of happiness, rather than
through fear and panic."
Last edited:
new reality
Active Member
A couple of random thoughts to add.
Another aspect of recovery is being careful of "rationalisations" such as "I'll just have a quick look", "One last look" and so on and so forth.
Going back to my story of quitting sugar, did I suffer from such rationalisations? Not really. The closest might be if I was hungry and in a café or something and the only things I could eat contained sugar. Maybe I'd make an exception and pick what I thought was the least sugary item. I wouldn't beat myself up for "relapsing", at most I might try and eat even more healthily than usual (compared to old habits) for the next day or two.
One good thing about the "moderation" idea is, if you have looked at a bit of porn or something, you don't have to call it a "relapse" and get into black-and-white thinking. The old binary choice between being a raging "addict" or someone who pursues effortful, often difficult and time-consuming "recovery".
As for writing journals and so on.. one issue with journals is we can "trigger" ourselves! If I had written a journal about quitting sugar, I might have triggered myself by reading about an old "relapse" with a chocolate bar or something. I think it's good to write things down, but maybe not in ways we may have learned in "recovery"?
Onwards.
Another aspect of recovery is being careful of "rationalisations" such as "I'll just have a quick look", "One last look" and so on and so forth.
Going back to my story of quitting sugar, did I suffer from such rationalisations? Not really. The closest might be if I was hungry and in a café or something and the only things I could eat contained sugar. Maybe I'd make an exception and pick what I thought was the least sugary item. I wouldn't beat myself up for "relapsing", at most I might try and eat even more healthily than usual (compared to old habits) for the next day or two.
One good thing about the "moderation" idea is, if you have looked at a bit of porn or something, you don't have to call it a "relapse" and get into black-and-white thinking. The old binary choice between being a raging "addict" or someone who pursues effortful, often difficult and time-consuming "recovery".
As for writing journals and so on.. one issue with journals is we can "trigger" ourselves! If I had written a journal about quitting sugar, I might have triggered myself by reading about an old "relapse" with a chocolate bar or something. I think it's good to write things down, but maybe not in ways we may have learned in "recovery"?
Onwards.
Blondie
Respected Member
Day 580
I'm a free man!
I want to say too, for anyone who reads my thoughts, that I know I've been saying some "controversial" things over the last while. Thus, I want to repeat, if the old model works for you, great! You do you. If SAA works for you, like it works for my bud @GBS, great. I'm happy for you. I'm here to support you no matter what our "differences" are. All I would ever want is for all of us to find success in this process, so if it's working and you're feeling good, great! But for myself, I'm going to keep going down this road because there's much to it that makes sense when comparing it to my "recovery" over the last seven years. One of the greatest values in life is to have knowledge with a constant zeal for more information, and when it comes to this matter, I don't think you can be educated enough on these issues.
Best
As a man thinketh, so is he
I'm a free man!
This is gold, @new reality. I think when we start believing we are powerless, and "addicts," we can start saying things to ourselves, that we would never be allowed to otherwise. Rationalizations are a great example. Right on the money.
Yes, completely. I wonder now, looking back at my "relapses" over the last seven years, what they would have looked like, if I hadn't thought in the moment that I was "addicted," and that there was no hope for me, and thus, "I guess I'll just binge now for five hours as a victim." Not only is that a rationalization too, as you just mentioned, and a lie, but also a convenient get out of jail free card to continue that habit I obviously wanted to do, and then I could "blame" it on the "addiction" afterwards.
I see your point. I know it's helpful to me, because I can use it as a springboard for thinking out my thoughts, and trying to understand what I'm reading, like what I've been doing this last month. But you're right, it's could be interpreted as another sign we're IN RECOVERY, and that we're powerless over our actions, and only another proof, that we're "addicts" for life.
I want to say too, for anyone who reads my thoughts, that I know I've been saying some "controversial" things over the last while. Thus, I want to repeat, if the old model works for you, great! You do you. If SAA works for you, like it works for my bud @GBS, great. I'm happy for you. I'm here to support you no matter what our "differences" are. All I would ever want is for all of us to find success in this process, so if it's working and you're feeling good, great! But for myself, I'm going to keep going down this road because there's much to it that makes sense when comparing it to my "recovery" over the last seven years. One of the greatest values in life is to have knowledge with a constant zeal for more information, and when it comes to this matter, I don't think you can be educated enough on these issues.
Best
As a man thinketh, so is he
Last edited: