Porn is not an option
- Thread starter Blondie
- Start date
Great, good work!
great reflection, interesting thoughts. endless reflection inside my own head. then the decision not to jerk off. after the decision, jerking off. it's hilariously pathetic. it would be great to raise the flag high that I'm not a jerker off and go out into the world and live, happy and joyful. not counting the days that it's been 14 days now and then I fell. should I start being a rebellious weaner, focus on life, focus on living more and interacting with people. worry more that most of the time you do good than bad. as long as the relationship remains positive, just let it go and be happy and love yourself. worrying alone produces jerks!
Blondie
Respected Member
"There is nothing to fight and nothing from which to recover. There are only
personal choices to be made. Your substance use isn’t involuntary. You
voluntarily choose it because, for better or worse, you prefer it. You could
try to “recover” by avoiding “triggers” and working on “alternative coping
mechanisms” all you want, but if you still prefer heavy substance use, you
will find yourself wanting to do it and will do it anyway."
I tell you what, there's something about this that is so freeing to my mind. It makes feel at peace, because it wipes away all the bullshit from the years of second guessing myself as to what was going on in my brain. Yes your brain changes, and it might even feel like you've lost all control, but that doesn't mean you've lost the power to choose. That's what makes you human.
I've mentioned many times on here about "wanting " to get down to 15% body fat. However, this has never happened once, and at this point, it's just a childish fantasy. I say I want it, but obviously I don't, because if I really did, I would have accomplished it by now. I know this to be a truth too, because everything else I've wanted and decided for in my life, I've found I could accomplish, no matter how challenging. However, when it comes to porn and quitting, I mixed my philosophy of getting shit done and the knowledge that I had the ability to choose, with this idea that I was a "porn zombie." The results have been interesting to say the least...
It's like boxing with your hands tied behind your back. Every punch to the gut makes you wonder if you're cut out to be a boxer.
Well I have news for you all. Your hands are free. You just didn't realize it. I didn't realize it. We didn't realize it.
Mind over matter
Mind over brain
Mind over porn
personal choices to be made. Your substance use isn’t involuntary. You
voluntarily choose it because, for better or worse, you prefer it. You could
try to “recover” by avoiding “triggers” and working on “alternative coping
mechanisms” all you want, but if you still prefer heavy substance use, you
will find yourself wanting to do it and will do it anyway."
I tell you what, there's something about this that is so freeing to my mind. It makes feel at peace, because it wipes away all the bullshit from the years of second guessing myself as to what was going on in my brain. Yes your brain changes, and it might even feel like you've lost all control, but that doesn't mean you've lost the power to choose. That's what makes you human.
I've mentioned many times on here about "wanting " to get down to 15% body fat. However, this has never happened once, and at this point, it's just a childish fantasy. I say I want it, but obviously I don't, because if I really did, I would have accomplished it by now. I know this to be a truth too, because everything else I've wanted and decided for in my life, I've found I could accomplish, no matter how challenging. However, when it comes to porn and quitting, I mixed my philosophy of getting shit done and the knowledge that I had the ability to choose, with this idea that I was a "porn zombie." The results have been interesting to say the least...
It's like boxing with your hands tied behind your back. Every punch to the gut makes you wonder if you're cut out to be a boxer.
Well I have news for you all. Your hands are free. You just didn't realize it. I didn't realize it. We didn't realize it.
Mind over matter
Mind over brain
Mind over porn
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Great, great, great!
We are as sick as our secrets!
The one with whom you refuse to come to light controls you.
1. We have things we ourselves know, but what others do not know.
2. Then there are stuff what others see in us but we ourselves do not see in ourselves.
3. Stuff that Both ourselves and others see.
4. Then most important. Things We ourselves do not know about the matter and neither do others. Miracles happens here! Here is intuition, here is flow state. Here is upward circle for better life. When this activated, can happen things that we did not believe! Here is who we really are.
We are warriors! Now that whining and whining is gone. Yeah, porn was a scam. Now get over it and towards life!
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Blondie
Respected Member
Day 582
(that is, a relapse) but I've never felt masturbation in of itself was a terribly bad thing, as long as it wasn't accompanied with porn. But that's me, you do you. I will say this though, try not to think of it as a black and white issue, where you "fall off" the horse and now you're a bad or morally wrong person. Even if you think it's morally wrong to masturbate, which is fine, the issue is extremely complicated considering it has to do with your sex drive. People have been masturbating as long as they've been eating and taking shits, so it's not exactly something you should feel "guilty" about, but only something that you may want to lessen in your life, which is a perfectly understandable goal. I hope that makes sense? I mean look at you, you're over 600 days porn free, that is an accomplishment. Don't miss the forest for the trees here, that's all I'm saying. You're doing great, man. Guilt and shame do us no good.
Have a great porn-free day, @Freerider.
Thanks, @Freerider. I wouldn't try to be too hard on yourself. However, I completely understand the feeling of deciding something one moment, then doing the opposite soon afterwards and feeling "hilariously pathetic." Welcome to the club, it's only human. And since much of this has to do with our sexuality, it can be pretty tough to differentiate between our "goals" and "standards" for ourselves, and NATURE, when it wants a release. Now I don't jerk off personally, except for the times that I do
(that is, a relapse) but I've never felt masturbation in of itself was a terribly bad thing, as long as it wasn't accompanied with porn. But that's me, you do you. I will say this though, try not to think of it as a black and white issue, where you "fall off" the horse and now you're a bad or morally wrong person. Even if you think it's morally wrong to masturbate, which is fine, the issue is extremely complicated considering it has to do with your sex drive. People have been masturbating as long as they've been eating and taking shits, so it's not exactly something you should feel "guilty" about, but only something that you may want to lessen in your life, which is a perfectly understandable goal. I hope that makes sense? I mean look at you, you're over 600 days porn free, that is an accomplishment. Don't miss the forest for the trees here, that's all I'm saying. You're doing great, man. Guilt and shame do us no good.I love this. Truth!
Have a great porn-free day, @Freerider.
I've not read all the comments and replies above, but looks like an interesting and important topic. I'll take more time to read more carefully before- if I even do- weigh in. But ever since 2013 (at least), I've been learned that I'm not an addict. That being said, I obviously promote that we can be 'habitualized' or addicted to certain behaviors and/or substances.
I've also for a while have been at odds with the 'disease model' of addiction, that it's not something physiological, or tied to our identity. I know the views of 12-step type of programs promote this, and seem to deny our agency. Of course, 12-step programs are also very helpful to many, though the recidivism rates are pretty high. But, I won't knock it for anyone finding help therein.
I think that the definition of an addiction needs to be looked at, and to do so in such a way that we realize the environment we've created for ourselves works against us, and seeks to undermine our freewill. But that also, we have the ability, not necessarily through sheer willpower, to recover ourselves out of this situation. It's not through sheer willpower, though it's helpful in its place. But that awareness, that innate knowing, is what causes us to be able to walk away.
Identity is everything, and I agree- "I'm not an addict"- I may have been addicted, but I'm not that. I never was that.
Thanks, @Blondie, for having the conversation. Perhaps I'll catch up, so I can engage more thoughtfully. But, either way, keep up the good work.
I've also for a while have been at odds with the 'disease model' of addiction, that it's not something physiological, or tied to our identity. I know the views of 12-step type of programs promote this, and seem to deny our agency. Of course, 12-step programs are also very helpful to many, though the recidivism rates are pretty high. But, I won't knock it for anyone finding help therein.
I think that the definition of an addiction needs to be looked at, and to do so in such a way that we realize the environment we've created for ourselves works against us, and seeks to undermine our freewill. But that also, we have the ability, not necessarily through sheer willpower, to recover ourselves out of this situation. It's not through sheer willpower, though it's helpful in its place. But that awareness, that innate knowing, is what causes us to be able to walk away.
Identity is everything, and I agree- "I'm not an addict"- I may have been addicted, but I'm not that. I never was that.
Thanks, @Blondie, for having the conversation. Perhaps I'll catch up, so I can engage more thoughtfully. But, either way, keep up the good work.
Blondie
Respected Member
Day 583
Thanks @Phineas 808, for weighing in. It's been an informative month of reading, trying to understand this habit better. Information is power as they say, and I can honestly say now, I've come a long way these last few weeks in understanding my habit better. Realizing for the first time, that many of the recovery ideas, including "recovery" all stem more or less from AA, and the recovery culture in general, was news to me. I had no idea. What is more, understanding that the addiction model itself, and more to the point, the diseased brain model, also come from AA was quite eye opening. As you said, and I've said a thousands times before, if that works for you, great, but for me, many of those ideas have left me wanting over the years, and now that I know their history, I can connect the dots better for myself. The biggest "aha moment" was seeing that the Your Brain On Porn model in its essence, is a continuation of the diseased brain model, just with a "scientific" upgrade. This blew my mind and I never was the same afterwards.
Over the years that I've been here, I've never gone down that road of talking about the YBOP model much, though I hinted at it here and there. I assumed it was "true" but I'm not a neurologist or biochemist, thus, even talking about it made me feel uncomfortable and that I was faking it. I mean, what do I know about that stuff? Absolutely nothing. I have no education in that field. However, I always felt "intuitively" that something was off and I didn't really believe the words I was writing when I did broach the subject. Of course, no one is denying the brain doesn't change, we all know that. It DOES change when you look at porn. But the brain changes when you look or do anything! And at the end of the day, we still have control. No matter what you call it, whether it's our "soul" or "mind" or whatever, this non-material aspect of us is in control, at all times, and it's not the other way around. We might feel like we're "out of control" sometimes because of our habitual use and habits, but that doesn't make it so.
This is groundbreaking for me, and I'm still "recovering" from it.
Thanks for stopping be, @Phineas 808.
You all have a great porn-free Saturday.
Thanks @Phineas 808, for weighing in. It's been an informative month of reading, trying to understand this habit better. Information is power as they say, and I can honestly say now, I've come a long way these last few weeks in understanding my habit better. Realizing for the first time, that many of the recovery ideas, including "recovery" all stem more or less from AA, and the recovery culture in general, was news to me. I had no idea. What is more, understanding that the addiction model itself, and more to the point, the diseased brain model, also come from AA was quite eye opening. As you said, and I've said a thousands times before, if that works for you, great, but for me, many of those ideas have left me wanting over the years, and now that I know their history, I can connect the dots better for myself. The biggest "aha moment" was seeing that the Your Brain On Porn model in its essence, is a continuation of the diseased brain model, just with a "scientific" upgrade. This blew my mind and I never was the same afterwards.
Over the years that I've been here, I've never gone down that road of talking about the YBOP model much, though I hinted at it here and there. I assumed it was "true" but I'm not a neurologist or biochemist, thus, even talking about it made me feel uncomfortable and that I was faking it. I mean, what do I know about that stuff? Absolutely nothing. I have no education in that field. However, I always felt "intuitively" that something was off and I didn't really believe the words I was writing when I did broach the subject. Of course, no one is denying the brain doesn't change, we all know that. It DOES change when you look at porn. But the brain changes when you look or do anything! And at the end of the day, we still have control. No matter what you call it, whether it's our "soul" or "mind" or whatever, this non-material aspect of us is in control, at all times, and it's not the other way around. We might feel like we're "out of control" sometimes because of our habitual use and habits, but that doesn't make it so.
This is groundbreaking for me, and I'm still "recovering" from it.
Thanks for stopping be, @Phineas 808.
You all have a great porn-free Saturday.
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Blondie
Respected Member
These are beautiful, beautiful words.
Read carefully.
"The goal of recovery puts people on the wrong path and creates obstacles
where they needn’t be. The concept of “triggers” is the perfect example.
People become convinced that, if they, for example, see a billboard
advertising beer (or porn substitutes, Facebook ads, movies, hot women) they’ll be uncontrollably triggered to immediately start
drinking (or looking at porn). Life then becomes a quest to avoid such triggers for those “in
recovery,” and they live with the paranoia that something will trigger them
to drink at any moment. In this way, efforts at recovery keep addiction alive
by sustaining the identity of a fragile, helpless addict. Meanwhile, when
people come to the realization that they prefer being sober more than being
intoxicated, nothing will trigger them into drunkenness. They can be in a
room full of people swilling it up, and they won’t be tempted in the
slightest."
I have said this repeatedly over the years, I refuse to live under a rock and hide from the world like a scared animal. In reality, what this teaches us men, is that not only are we fragile and helpless, but worse, that we have no control over our sexuality. I have a real problem with this idea in general, especially in regards to how our culture has brought some things to light about this subject concerning men doing awful unappropriated things to women over the last decade. Often these assholes (with their money loving lawyers) say they're "sex addicts" and then go to rehab, AFTER they've been caught. Then they do their "time" and are released back into society. Thankfully, some do get their just reward. This shit pisses me off. These guys KNOW what they're doing. They've chosen what they've done. They might be sick, but they're not "sick in the head" nor "sex addicts." And that's the problem with this whole idea. It gives us men many excuses instead of owning our shit.
Now to be very clear here, I'm not saying us men at RN are assholes like the guys described above. We all know who they are from the media. What I am saying though is this mentality sets us up for defeat before we even begin. If we think we are "fragile, helpless addicts" well, you can be sure we'll act like it.
We are not victims
We are not the helpless scum of the earth
We are not maggots for lawyers' wages
We have a choice
and what we do with that option
is on us
As a man thinketh, so is he
Read carefully.
"The goal of recovery puts people on the wrong path and creates obstacles
where they needn’t be. The concept of “triggers” is the perfect example.
People become convinced that, if they, for example, see a billboard
advertising beer (or porn substitutes, Facebook ads, movies, hot women) they’ll be uncontrollably triggered to immediately start
drinking (or looking at porn). Life then becomes a quest to avoid such triggers for those “in
recovery,” and they live with the paranoia that something will trigger them
to drink at any moment. In this way, efforts at recovery keep addiction alive
by sustaining the identity of a fragile, helpless addict. Meanwhile, when
people come to the realization that they prefer being sober more than being
intoxicated, nothing will trigger them into drunkenness. They can be in a
room full of people swilling it up, and they won’t be tempted in the
slightest."
I have said this repeatedly over the years, I refuse to live under a rock and hide from the world like a scared animal. In reality, what this teaches us men, is that not only are we fragile and helpless, but worse, that we have no control over our sexuality. I have a real problem with this idea in general, especially in regards to how our culture has brought some things to light about this subject concerning men doing awful unappropriated things to women over the last decade. Often these assholes (with their money loving lawyers) say they're "sex addicts" and then go to rehab, AFTER they've been caught. Then they do their "time" and are released back into society. Thankfully, some do get their just reward. This shit pisses me off. These guys KNOW what they're doing. They've chosen what they've done. They might be sick, but they're not "sick in the head" nor "sex addicts." And that's the problem with this whole idea. It gives us men many excuses instead of owning our shit.
Now to be very clear here, I'm not saying us men at RN are assholes like the guys described above. We all know who they are from the media. What I am saying though is this mentality sets us up for defeat before we even begin. If we think we are "fragile, helpless addicts" well, you can be sure we'll act like it.
We are not victims
We are not the helpless scum of the earth
We are not maggots for lawyers' wages
We have a choice
and what we do with that option
is on us
As a man thinketh, so is he
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Blondie
Respected Member
"As we discussed in chapter 1, the practitioners and proponents of recovery
ideology tell you that you’re suffering from an incurable disease (Your Brain is Hijacked by porn) that
requires treatment, a lifelong effort to battle, and ongoing support and yet
will inevitably result in periodic relapses for which you’ll need more
treatment. So, right off the bat, they’re presenting a grim prognosis. Based
solely on this description of the problem and its solution, many people
immediately give up and don’t even try to change. After all, if it’s going to
be a losing battle, then why not just continue to drink and drug? (or look at porn?). Substance
use is at least offering some pleasure. And if you believe you need
substances to deal with stress, anxiety, and depression, then the stress,
anxiety, and depression most people feel when presented with this dire
prediction is enough to make them immediately turn back to substances.
This is the reason the one-year retention rate of popular support groups is in
the single digits and the rate of “relapse” to heavy substance use
immediately following inpatient treatment is estimated to be 75% or greater
(Miller, Walters, & Bennett, 2001)."
I feel this paragraph perfectly describes many people and their journey "back to porn" after a long while, aka, a relapse. I know for myself, after reading some books, especially Out of the Shadows, I would feel overwhelming sadness and depression afterwards, and think to myself, "What's even the point of trying to stop? I'm a sex addict and my mind is fucked by porn. I might as well go back to the filth and enjoy my happiness as much as I can! I'm in the clutches of Dopamine!"
A big problem I have with these kinds of books about sex addiction or porn addiction, is that they make you think that YOUR THINKING is wrong, and thus, you shouldn't listen to YOURSELF. The argument goes like this: you're a sex addict, so any kind of questioning about this or that, only proves you're in denial. This should be a massive red flag to any reader. It's the same argument I heard in my childhood in a fundamentalist Christian culture, that is, if you dare question this or that tenant of faith, that's obviously the demons inside of you making you "think" so much. No thank you. This isn't a bash on any religion or recovery program, but as for me, that shit doesn't fly. God/nature gave you your mind to be able to think for yourself. If anyone tells you don't think too much, or you're too sick to think properly, mostly likely, you should walk right out the door and never enter again. Life's too short to put up with that nonsense. Of course I don't mean you should be uneducated about this matter either, that's a problem running in the opposite direction.
Do you know what's not a "grim prognosis?" You're brain's not fucked. Your dick will be okay. Your dick IS okay.
A funny anecdote. Whenever I'm depressed, I find my dick doesn't work like it does when I'm happy. Go figure! It doesn't NOT work, it just doesn't want to work. Does that make sense? It makes sense to me. Anyways. Imagine this, here comes an innocent guy whose dick didn't work one fateful night (yes that's me) and then he finds a "grim prognosis" on the internet. It reads: your dick is fucked because of your porn use. Your brain is fucked because of dopamine. P.S. You're fucked! And sure enough, no matter what was going on with his dick on that unlucky night, after this "grim dick prognosis" and the depression that soon followed, you can guarantee he will be experiencing dick problems for a real long time. Why? Because dicks don't fly on a depressing wind coming from the internet.
Now I'm not denying peoples' stories. Hell, I know I've had my own Little Richard story. It's a true story by the way. A tale as old as time. However, how do we know if some (many?) of these depressing dick prognoses didn't contribute to the problem? When you're depressed, it's a fact of life, the little man downstairs sometimes doesn't want to play. And why should he? He's not a slave to your wishes. I find it ironic and quite amusing, that the culture of this whole internet phenomenon has crated phrases like "porn flashbacks" and other descriptions of that nature. Yes, I've used them myself, but stay with me. This turn of phrase often implies unwanted "porn thoughts" and "flashbacks" of porn scenes. Some users describe themselves as being a "Slave in the moment." However, this internet culture has also created men who have become obsessed with their dicks, that is, slaves to the health of their dicks. I find this extremely unhealthy, and I guess it's time for me to come out of the closet on this issue. Last time I checked, being obsessed with something, can cause unwanted anxiety too, which can lead to a limp dick in the bedroom.
Now I'm not bashing this culture, hell, I've been writing on this subject for years. Nor am I saying anyone's story is not true. All I'm saying, however, is that there could be more to the story than just "porn fucked up my dick." That's all I'm saying. I've had my "problems" too, as you all know, but who's to say this dick prognosis from hell didn't also contribute to my problems over the years? I have a hard time believing it didn't. The mind is a powerful thing. After a relapse I would experience much anxiety and depression. Go figure!
Who knows.
ideology tell you that you’re suffering from an incurable disease (Your Brain is Hijacked by porn) that
requires treatment, a lifelong effort to battle, and ongoing support and yet
will inevitably result in periodic relapses for which you’ll need more
treatment. So, right off the bat, they’re presenting a grim prognosis. Based
solely on this description of the problem and its solution, many people
immediately give up and don’t even try to change. After all, if it’s going to
be a losing battle, then why not just continue to drink and drug? (or look at porn?). Substance
use is at least offering some pleasure. And if you believe you need
substances to deal with stress, anxiety, and depression, then the stress,
anxiety, and depression most people feel when presented with this dire
prediction is enough to make them immediately turn back to substances.
This is the reason the one-year retention rate of popular support groups is in
the single digits and the rate of “relapse” to heavy substance use
immediately following inpatient treatment is estimated to be 75% or greater
(Miller, Walters, & Bennett, 2001)."
I feel this paragraph perfectly describes many people and their journey "back to porn" after a long while, aka, a relapse. I know for myself, after reading some books, especially Out of the Shadows, I would feel overwhelming sadness and depression afterwards, and think to myself, "What's even the point of trying to stop? I'm a sex addict and my mind is fucked by porn. I might as well go back to the filth and enjoy my happiness as much as I can! I'm in the clutches of Dopamine!"
A big problem I have with these kinds of books about sex addiction or porn addiction, is that they make you think that YOUR THINKING is wrong, and thus, you shouldn't listen to YOURSELF. The argument goes like this: you're a sex addict, so any kind of questioning about this or that, only proves you're in denial. This should be a massive red flag to any reader. It's the same argument I heard in my childhood in a fundamentalist Christian culture, that is, if you dare question this or that tenant of faith, that's obviously the demons inside of you making you "think" so much. No thank you. This isn't a bash on any religion or recovery program, but as for me, that shit doesn't fly. God/nature gave you your mind to be able to think for yourself. If anyone tells you don't think too much, or you're too sick to think properly, mostly likely, you should walk right out the door and never enter again. Life's too short to put up with that nonsense. Of course I don't mean you should be uneducated about this matter either, that's a problem running in the opposite direction.
Do you know what's not a "grim prognosis?" You're brain's not fucked. Your dick will be okay. Your dick IS okay.
A funny anecdote. Whenever I'm depressed, I find my dick doesn't work like it does when I'm happy. Go figure! It doesn't NOT work, it just doesn't want to work. Does that make sense? It makes sense to me. Anyways. Imagine this, here comes an innocent guy whose dick didn't work one fateful night (yes that's me) and then he finds a "grim prognosis" on the internet. It reads: your dick is fucked because of your porn use. Your brain is fucked because of dopamine. P.S. You're fucked! And sure enough, no matter what was going on with his dick on that unlucky night, after this "grim dick prognosis" and the depression that soon followed, you can guarantee he will be experiencing dick problems for a real long time. Why? Because dicks don't fly on a depressing wind coming from the internet.
Now I'm not denying peoples' stories. Hell, I know I've had my own Little Richard story. It's a true story by the way. A tale as old as time. However, how do we know if some (many?) of these depressing dick prognoses didn't contribute to the problem? When you're depressed, it's a fact of life, the little man downstairs sometimes doesn't want to play. And why should he? He's not a slave to your wishes. I find it ironic and quite amusing, that the culture of this whole internet phenomenon has crated phrases like "porn flashbacks" and other descriptions of that nature. Yes, I've used them myself, but stay with me. This turn of phrase often implies unwanted "porn thoughts" and "flashbacks" of porn scenes. Some users describe themselves as being a "Slave in the moment." However, this internet culture has also created men who have become obsessed with their dicks, that is, slaves to the health of their dicks. I find this extremely unhealthy, and I guess it's time for me to come out of the closet on this issue. Last time I checked, being obsessed with something, can cause unwanted anxiety too, which can lead to a limp dick in the bedroom.
Now I'm not bashing this culture, hell, I've been writing on this subject for years. Nor am I saying anyone's story is not true. All I'm saying, however, is that there could be more to the story than just "porn fucked up my dick." That's all I'm saying. I've had my "problems" too, as you all know, but who's to say this dick prognosis from hell didn't also contribute to my problems over the years? I have a hard time believing it didn't. The mind is a powerful thing. After a relapse I would experience much anxiety and depression. Go figure!
Who knows.
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I have really enjoyed reading through this. It is a lot! To me, and I am not a recoverer, the difficulty with porn is when it impacts your life and relationships. So in the being simplistic, why does the viewer of porn use it consistently, and if it is disruptive look at the why, and use a different way to cope. I know I am assuming it is to feel good when you dont. So introspection would be helpful. Just a thought.
One of the things about AA model that would help with PA is they have groups for the spouses, partners, important people in the lives of members. Because it is helpful for many to have that support as we go through this with our partner.
That is all. Once again great reading.
One of the things about AA model that would help with PA is they have groups for the spouses, partners, important people in the lives of members. Because it is helpful for many to have that support as we go through this with our partner.
That is all. Once again great reading.
Blondie
Respected Member
Day 584
Thanks for stopping by, @Gracie.
You're right about the introspection too. A man (or woman) who is looking at porn, but needs to stop for his relationship or whatever, would need to learn how to be introspective. This is hard to do. But everyone can. Furthermore, and most importantly, he would need to NOT focus on the negatives, but the positives he would receive in his life if he quit. This is new for me and very helpful when reflected upon. The book mentions how often substance abusers (throw in porn users here) focus on the negatives (wife hating it, a moral issue, the porn industry) but at the end of the day, these things can't force a man to quit, or most men anyway. However, focusing on the positives of a life without porn, seeing that life would be better without it, that is, that life would be MORE happy, makes it "easier" to quit.
This is the book's answer, not mine, but, I think there's much truth in it, especially when I compare it to my life. One thing the book addresses that I love the most, is that there is no such thing as "sex addicts" or "porn addicts," you name it. I love this. However, what this means for the partner of such a man, is that this man's "addicted brain" didn't "make him do it" but rather, he chose to do it. Over and over again. And by this I don't mean the argument that "A man chose another woman over you." No that's another whole issue that is not exactly black and white in my view, which you and I disagree with, so we won't even go there. However, what this does mean is that the partner's man IS/WAS in control of his actions (though it might not feel like it sometimes) and he chose to look at porn, even if he knew it would hurt his partner if she found out. That is the choice I'm talking about. With this model, there is no addiction here to "blame" it on, there never was. Just misinformation about the matter. For my Lady, she loves that I was honest and owned my nonsense. But yes, to see it through the lens of a non-addiction model, might for some partners, make them rethink some things. Who knows. I'm not a partner though. So I can't say.
Best
You all have a great porn-free Sunday.
Thanks for stopping by, @Gracie.
This is a massive question, and is probably different for every porn user. But you're on the money, because this book is asking, "why to substance/porn users use no matter the consequences? whether it be to their marriage, finances or whatever. Well the answer is, they use because it's enjoyable. END OF STORY. At the end of the day, viewing porn is their idea of the pursuit of happiness. Of course, we could argue that "their values are wacked out," but that is beside the point, and to address it as a "moral" issue only confuses the matter. Deep down inside a porn user, they still believe it brings more happiness than not, even with the consequences.
You're right about the introspection too. A man (or woman) who is looking at porn, but needs to stop for his relationship or whatever, would need to learn how to be introspective. This is hard to do. But everyone can. Furthermore, and most importantly, he would need to NOT focus on the negatives, but the positives he would receive in his life if he quit. This is new for me and very helpful when reflected upon. The book mentions how often substance abusers (throw in porn users here) focus on the negatives (wife hating it, a moral issue, the porn industry) but at the end of the day, these things can't force a man to quit, or most men anyway. However, focusing on the positives of a life without porn, seeing that life would be better without it, that is, that life would be MORE happy, makes it "easier" to quit.
This is the book's answer, not mine, but, I think there's much truth in it, especially when I compare it to my life. One thing the book addresses that I love the most, is that there is no such thing as "sex addicts" or "porn addicts," you name it. I love this. However, what this means for the partner of such a man, is that this man's "addicted brain" didn't "make him do it" but rather, he chose to do it. Over and over again. And by this I don't mean the argument that "A man chose another woman over you." No that's another whole issue that is not exactly black and white in my view, which you and I disagree with, so we won't even go there.
However, what this does mean is that the partner's man IS/WAS in control of his actions (though it might not feel like it sometimes) and he chose to look at porn, even if he knew it would hurt his partner if she found out. That is the choice I'm talking about. With this model, there is no addiction here to "blame" it on, there never was. Just misinformation about the matter. For my Lady, she loves that I was honest and owned my nonsense. But yes, to see it through the lens of a non-addiction model, might for some partners, make them rethink some things. Who knows. I'm not a partner though. So I can't say.Best
You all have a great porn-free Sunday.
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Blondie
Respected Member
I've been thinking more about the book, and how you could apply it to relationships and the problems porn can bring to them. I love how the book compares substance use (or porn) to any other activity. For example, the book compares looking at porn to someone who's into extreme sports: skydiving, rock climbing freestyle, you name it. Let's say a man has been doing these types of activities for years, he knows the consequences (death, being paralyzed), however, he takes the risks because of the happiness these activities bring him. Porn users do this all the time. Well, let's say this man meets his "dream girl" who loves him dearly, but now, here's the catch, she really has a problem with him doing some of these activities. Not because she's necessarily trying to "control" him, but because she doesn't want to lose him and wants his full attention (porn use), a story as old as time. Now here the man has a choice, as does the woman. He can choose to live the life he always has, the life that gives him the most joy knowing she might leave him if he continues. On the other side, the woman can decide to either "put up" with these activities or leave the relationship. But here's the interesting part. If the man truly feels that this relationship will make him happier than the his extreme sports, he will voluntarily tone down his activities, or even eliminate them entirely. But here's the catcher, the man has to decide on his own accord, and can't be shamed of his activities by his woman, otherwise, he will eventually "relapse" and freestyle climb El Capitan when she's out of town. Why? Because this is what brought him happiness all those years, and he's never really been "happy" every sense. Some might even say he's "addicted."
Of course, we could take this analogy even further. Let's say the woman had no clue of her man's freestyle rock climbing for many years, and she came upon his secret life by finding a hidden stash of "climbing magazines" in the closet. Oh shit. Now the shit has hit the fan. She's rightly furious and utterly pissed. Who could blame her? I don't. What's worse, she sensed something was "wrong" for years but never acted on it. Sometimes she felt in her heart that her man's attention was somewhere else in the relationship, especially when he went on those "weekend trips." She is devasted and now the secret is out. What an asshole. But here's the real catcher and the only point that should matter. Should the man feel shame for his secret activities, activities that have always made him happy? Or, should the man only be criticized for his lies, hiding and deceit all these years, that is, breaking the contract of the relationship? This book would argue the latter, and I definitely would agree.
Whether anyone agrees "morally" with porn or extreme sports doesn't matter in the end, especially when it comes to the pertinent question of how to quit this habit. No one should be shamed for the actions they legally chose to do. One might not like it, one might even think it's disgusting, or even morally wrong, but if it's legal and brings happiness to that person, it's not really anyone's business what they do or not do. However, when this habit is brought into a relationship, things DO change, because then you're dealing with two people, and the expectations of the relationship. The only shame (guilt?) the user should feel in this situation is the guilt of lying and not being honest with his partner. However, to shame him for his activities in of themselves seems to be problematic and just leads to more shame and often more porn use, or, extreme sports.
Once again, I'm not saying porn use is "cool," you all know that. What I am saying though is that maybe the problems in relationships with porn use could be better managed and "fixed," if the focus was on the lying, hiding, and mending the relationship, and NOT shaming the man, and demanding he drop his filthy "sex addicted" habit. Maybe he wants to change, or maybe he doesn't, but either way, it has to be his choice, otherwise, he will always resent it, and probably his partner too.
I think the book is correct, moralizing these matters is not the answer.
It's fun to experiment with reading this book that only deals with substance use, but then to apply them to porn, which is practically the same, but with some slight differences.
Peace
Of course, we could take this analogy even further. Let's say the woman had no clue of her man's freestyle rock climbing for many years, and she came upon his secret life by finding a hidden stash of "climbing magazines" in the closet. Oh shit. Now the shit has hit the fan. She's rightly furious and utterly pissed. Who could blame her? I don't. What's worse, she sensed something was "wrong" for years but never acted on it. Sometimes she felt in her heart that her man's attention was somewhere else in the relationship, especially when he went on those "weekend trips." She is devasted and now the secret is out. What an asshole. But here's the real catcher and the only point that should matter. Should the man feel shame for his secret activities, activities that have always made him happy? Or, should the man only be criticized for his lies, hiding and deceit all these years, that is, breaking the contract of the relationship? This book would argue the latter, and I definitely would agree.
Whether anyone agrees "morally" with porn or extreme sports doesn't matter in the end, especially when it comes to the pertinent question of how to quit this habit. No one should be shamed for the actions they legally chose to do. One might not like it, one might even think it's disgusting, or even morally wrong, but if it's legal and brings happiness to that person, it's not really anyone's business what they do or not do. However, when this habit is brought into a relationship, things DO change, because then you're dealing with two people, and the expectations of the relationship. The only shame (guilt?) the user should feel in this situation is the guilt of lying and not being honest with his partner. However, to shame him for his activities in of themselves seems to be problematic and just leads to more shame and often more porn use, or, extreme sports.
Once again, I'm not saying porn use is "cool," you all know that. What I am saying though is that maybe the problems in relationships with porn use could be better managed and "fixed," if the focus was on the lying, hiding, and mending the relationship, and NOT shaming the man, and demanding he drop his filthy "sex addicted" habit. Maybe he wants to change, or maybe he doesn't, but either way, it has to be his choice, otherwise, he will always resent it, and probably his partner too.
I think the book is correct, moralizing these matters is not the answer.
It's fun to experiment with reading this book that only deals with substance use, but then to apply them to porn, which is practically the same, but with some slight differences.
Peace
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Blondie
Respected Member
Let's try this little experiment. For the next ten seconds, don't think about the porn. Oh shit. I just did! I like this paragraph from the book, it describes the phenomenon of trying not to think of something, but of course, doing that makes you think it all the more. I've experienced this too when it comes to triggers, and this was way back in my time here at RN. I learned that planning a day "trying to not have triggers" was practically setting up a day TO HAVE MANY TRIGGERS. That's how human psychology works. Walking around with constant fear of triggers is the equivalent of sitting down with your calendar and writing, "I will think of porn today at 10 o'clock. Then at 10:09. Then I'm busy for the next 30 minutes, so I'll unfortunately only have time for six thoughts of porn over that period. And on and on it goes. Not only does this method not work, at least for most of us, it makes us weak and feeble, wanting to hide under a rock away from the world. That's not the life I want.
Porn is everywhere.
"Hot" women are everywhere
Alcohol is everywhere
Drugs are everywhere
These substances are not the problem, our choices are the problem, and the "feelings" we have attached to our substance of choice.
"There’s more bad news. To deal with this “chronic disease,” you’re told that
you’ll need to take on a recovery-centered lifestyle, which entails constant
work. This means that you will need to go to meetings every day; get
involved in active service work outside meetings to help other alcoholics
and addicts; avoid places where people drink and drug, including regular
family holiday parties and weddings; avoid triggers, such as driving by that
old bar or part of town where you scored drugs; avoid images of drugs and
alcohol on television; make sure you don’t feel stress, anxiety, anger, or
depression, or else you’ll relapse; work on every life issue you have, or else
you’ll relapse; never have so much as a sip of alcohol or puff of a joint ever
again for the rest of your life because it’ll turn you into an uncontrolled,
substance-using zombie. And the list goes on and on."
If we think of ourselves as "uncontrolled, porn-using zombies" we must definitely will be acting accordingly throughout the day.
Porn is everywhere.
"Hot" women are everywhere
Alcohol is everywhere
Drugs are everywhere
These substances are not the problem, our choices are the problem, and the "feelings" we have attached to our substance of choice.
"There’s more bad news. To deal with this “chronic disease,” you’re told that
you’ll need to take on a recovery-centered lifestyle, which entails constant
work. This means that you will need to go to meetings every day; get
involved in active service work outside meetings to help other alcoholics
and addicts; avoid places where people drink and drug, including regular
family holiday parties and weddings; avoid triggers, such as driving by that
old bar or part of town where you scored drugs; avoid images of drugs and
alcohol on television; make sure you don’t feel stress, anxiety, anger, or
depression, or else you’ll relapse; work on every life issue you have, or else
you’ll relapse; never have so much as a sip of alcohol or puff of a joint ever
again for the rest of your life because it’ll turn you into an uncontrolled,
substance-using zombie. And the list goes on and on."
If we think of ourselves as "uncontrolled, porn-using zombies" we must definitely will be acting accordingly throughout the day.
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Blondie
Respected Member
I'm still rereading the Freedom Model of Addiction when I have the time, but work has been crazy, so it's been dramatically less this week. However, I'm about two weeks out from finishing this book the first time, and my head space when it comes to this issue of identifying as an "addict" or "sex addict" has improved considerably. I've dropped those terms faster than I thought I could. Perhaps because I always questioned them to begin with? I don't know, either way, life when it comes to my thoughts about these issues seems at peace now. This next quote makes you think about the problems of "identifying" as an addict, or even the idea of "recovery." Maybe this weekend if I have the time, I will read the research he cites in this quote. It sounds fascinating!
@Phineas 808 and I used to respectfully disagree about whether to call our past porn use escaping from a "prison." I used to think so, but he did not. Now I think he was correct about that. However, NOW I wonder if porn wasn't the prison, but, the idea of "recovery," that is, that I was destined to be a "slave to temptations, and that I would struggle for the rest of my days, WAS A PRISON. A prison of the mind and its capabilities to overcome what one man decides to change. I don't have an answer here. But it's fun to ponder on.
You all have a great porn-free Thursday.
"One of the most important discoveries we’ve made over the years is that
shedding the identity of addict or alcoholic and focusing on creating
whatever life you want for yourself is far better than focusing on
“recovery.” We know this confuses some of you because you think you
want recovery and we’re putting it down. Once you understand what
“recovery” means in the realm of substance use problems, you’ll decide it’s
not what you want.
If you’ve never been involved with the recovery society, its groups or
treatment programs, you might think recovery is a good thing because you
define it as getting over a substance use problem. But if you’ve been in the
recovery society, you know that’s not how the term is defined. As we
described above, “recovery” is a lifestyle built around the negative addict
self-image and focused on fighting the disease of addiction. Recovery has
no end. It’s a state of limbo in which you constantly fear relapse and sustain
a self-image of fragility that keeps you in self-doubt and fosters permanent
victimhood. This definition is also codified into official policy in language
suggested by the White House whereby the term “former/reformed addict”
should not be used but instead replaced with the terms “person in recovery”
and “not actively using” (Ferner, 2015). Of course, in this model “not
actively using” means you are still a “person with substance use disorder.”
Recovery keeps the bogeyman of addiction alive and well in your mind, and
that’s a tragic mistake.
“Recovery” is both a set of ideas (the self-image of “addict/alcoholic” or
“person with substance use disorder” according to new language guidelines)
and a set of actions (work to battle the disease of addiction). Both the ideas
and the actions obscure what lies at the core of personal change.
Research has shown that belief in the disease model of addiction leads to
“relapse” into problematic substance use (Miller, Westerberg, Harris, &
Tonigan, 1996) and multiplies binge use at an alarming rate (Brandsma,
1980). As soon as people enter addiction treatment and learn these ideas,
their risk of fatal overdose goes up and peaks immediately after they
discontinue addiction treatment (Pierce et al., 2016). The self-image of the
struggling, helpless addict taught by the recovery society increases
substance use problems and leads people to struggle longer. The conclusion
is, treatment creates addicts and alcoholics!"
@Phineas 808 and I used to respectfully disagree about whether to call our past porn use escaping from a "prison." I used to think so, but he did not. Now I think he was correct about that. However, NOW I wonder if porn wasn't the prison, but, the idea of "recovery," that is, that I was destined to be a "slave to temptations, and that I would struggle for the rest of my days, WAS A PRISON. A prison of the mind and its capabilities to overcome what one man decides to change. I don't have an answer here. But it's fun to ponder on.
You all have a great porn-free Thursday.
"One of the most important discoveries we’ve made over the years is that
shedding the identity of addict or alcoholic and focusing on creating
whatever life you want for yourself is far better than focusing on
“recovery.” We know this confuses some of you because you think you
want recovery and we’re putting it down. Once you understand what
“recovery” means in the realm of substance use problems, you’ll decide it’s
not what you want.
If you’ve never been involved with the recovery society, its groups or
treatment programs, you might think recovery is a good thing because you
define it as getting over a substance use problem. But if you’ve been in the
recovery society, you know that’s not how the term is defined. As we
described above, “recovery” is a lifestyle built around the negative addict
self-image and focused on fighting the disease of addiction. Recovery has
no end. It’s a state of limbo in which you constantly fear relapse and sustain
a self-image of fragility that keeps you in self-doubt and fosters permanent
victimhood. This definition is also codified into official policy in language
suggested by the White House whereby the term “former/reformed addict”
should not be used but instead replaced with the terms “person in recovery”
and “not actively using” (Ferner, 2015). Of course, in this model “not
actively using” means you are still a “person with substance use disorder.”
Recovery keeps the bogeyman of addiction alive and well in your mind, and
that’s a tragic mistake.
“Recovery” is both a set of ideas (the self-image of “addict/alcoholic” or
“person with substance use disorder” according to new language guidelines)
and a set of actions (work to battle the disease of addiction). Both the ideas
and the actions obscure what lies at the core of personal change.
Research has shown that belief in the disease model of addiction leads to
“relapse” into problematic substance use (Miller, Westerberg, Harris, &
Tonigan, 1996) and multiplies binge use at an alarming rate (Brandsma,
1980). As soon as people enter addiction treatment and learn these ideas,
their risk of fatal overdose goes up and peaks immediately after they
discontinue addiction treatment (Pierce et al., 2016). The self-image of the
struggling, helpless addict taught by the recovery society increases
substance use problems and leads people to struggle longer. The conclusion
is, treatment creates addicts and alcoholics!"
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Exactly! I typically use the term recoveryism, that folk need to recover from recoveryism, the idea that one is perpetually 'in recovery'- even for a life time! And this, despite being 'sober' for X-amount of years...!
Seeing a potential dependency on these unwanted behaviors as a process, that one is 'addicted' (or simply habituated depending on severity), isn't to the behaviors or substances themselves, but to the whole process. So, a mind-blower is that even most of recovery is itself a part of that process.
I've found to be true in my own experiences that the less I think about this stuff, the better. Even if I've stumbled or fumbled, the quicker I can forget about it, the healthier for me. But, looking back from where I've come, this whole process took up way too much real estate in my mind.
So, why would we go about, identifying ourselves as an addict, hopelessly without power (which disempowers us), and create a lifestyle that literally orbits around this process, even if in the name of recovery?
Better to recognize ourselves as 'recovered'- especially if these things are no longer habits or depended on in our lives to cope.