Porn is not an option
- Thread starter Blondie
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Blondie
Respected Member
new reality
Active Member
Good posts, Blondie. A few quick thoughts even though I don't have time right now.
I mentioned briefly that I had a reservation or two about what The Freedom Model says about trauma (or what I've gathered from the podcast, mainly, since I haven't fully read the book). My reservation was more about doing positive things rather than avoiding negative things. In my experience, trauma (and especially, a phobia which develops partly because of the trauma) can be a serious obstacle to achieving certain things (but not everything). I agree however, that trauma doesn't inevitably and incontrollably lead to addiction.
Sometimes a person might think that he wants to PMO more than anything else in the world, right now. But as you suggested, if the doorbell were to ring, for example, he will probably consider not being caught PMOing to be more important to his happiness than PMOing, and will abandon PMO for the time being.
I guess I have another thought or two but don't have time to type them out. Plus maybe I've expressed them before lol.
I mentioned briefly that I had a reservation or two about what The Freedom Model says about trauma (or what I've gathered from the podcast, mainly, since I haven't fully read the book). My reservation was more about doing positive things rather than avoiding negative things. In my experience, trauma (and especially, a phobia which develops partly because of the trauma) can be a serious obstacle to achieving certain things (but not everything). I agree however, that trauma doesn't inevitably and incontrollably lead to addiction.
Sometimes a person might think that he wants to PMO more than anything else in the world, right now. But as you suggested, if the doorbell were to ring, for example, he will probably consider not being caught PMOing to be more important to his happiness than PMOing, and will abandon PMO for the time being.
I guess I have another thought or two but don't have time to type them out. Plus maybe I've expressed them before lol.
Blondie
Respected Member
Blondie
Respected Member
Day 611
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that the book or podcast states to do more "positive things" to get over trauma, or avoid "negative things? I would agree that trauma and phobias can be a detriment to growth and success. I'm living proof of that, as are many others who have experienced much worse trauma than I. This trauma is a real cause and effect. If you we're sexually abused or beat by your parents, there will be a real cause and effect going on, not only physically but psychologically as well. This happened, and then this result followed, and much of it would be the same for every person who went through it. Furthermore, if you were neglected as a child, all children would experience the same effects, that is, hunger if no food, or being cold if no shelter etc. However, as you pointed out, this does not inevitably lead to addiction, and that's the key point. This is not a true cause and effect, and linking addiction to trauma is a false conclusion.
Hi @new reality!
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that the book or podcast states to do more "positive things" to get over trauma, or avoid "negative things? I would agree that trauma and phobias can be a detriment to growth and success. I'm living proof of that, as are many others who have experienced much worse trauma than I. This trauma is a real cause and effect. If you we're sexually abused or beat by your parents, there will be a real cause and effect going on, not only physically but psychologically as well. This happened, and then this result followed, and much of it would be the same for every person who went through it. Furthermore, if you were neglected as a child, all children would experience the same effects, that is, hunger if no food, or being cold if no shelter etc. However, as you pointed out, this does not inevitably lead to addiction, and that's the key point. This is not a true cause and effect, and linking addiction to trauma is a false conclusion.
Yes, this is a big one! We might say we had "no control" but that's not true. We have control. We can turn it off whenever we need to, and in fact, we do everyday. When we have to go to work. When our wives walk in the room. When our kids walk in the room. If we had "no control" we would keep on doing it when they walked in. But that never happens.
I would love to hear it! I think saying things over and over again is a good thing. If I didn't do that, this thread would be two pages long.
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Recovery Will Come
Active Member
Over 600 days is incredible!! Keep going!!
new reality
Active Member
I'm talking more about the podcast. I'll approach it from a different angle. The hosts are coming from a Twelve Steps background, as in Alcoholics Anonymous and similar groups, and indeed the Twelve Steps mentality has had a massive influence elsewhere, as we've mentioned.
The hosts often push back against advice given in Twelve Steps to focus on recovery and focus less on other goals, plans etc. that you might have, in case it messes up your recovery or something. So, fair enough that The Freedom Model hosts want to push back against this mentality and "empower" people to go for their goals without being paranoid about their "recovery" falling apart. It's not their fault if they inadvertently "trigger" a few people like me. However, even so perhaps they should do more to acknowledge obstacles that may be in the way of people wanting to achieve such goals, whether those obstacles be psychological, financial, situational and so on. A bit like how it's generally not great to say to a depressed person, "Oh man it would be SO EASY to solve your problems, just do this, this and this".
More soon hopefully.
Blondie
Respected Member
Day 612
Hi, @new reality.
I find the podcast to be helpful, though like everything else, I don't always agree with it all.
I hope we keep on talking, new reality.
You all have a great porn-free Sunday.
P.S.
We also watched a "sexy" movie last night together with a moderate amount of T&A. Since reading this book over the last month and a half, I've been watching a movie here and there that I never would have before because of my fear of being "triggered." Knowing now that there is no such thing, and that it was only a false belief, that is, a false cause and effect, has been truly liberating. Thus, the "mythology" of seeing some random tits and ass (or not random) and suddenly "finding myself" watching porn or strip cams, has been almost completely dismantled from my thoughts. Sometimes I've had to stop and think about it it for a moment, but then I realize there is no true connection between the two, and that's it. At this point, it's almost sad and completely laughable that I even thought there was such a thing not very long ago.
But here's the deal, not very long ago...
I thought I was a life long addict
I thought my brain was fucked and wired to porn
I thought seeing a sex scene or boobies automatically "leads me like a zombie" to watch strip cams
I thought and believed in many more false causes and effects
I wouldn't recommend anyone do what I did last night, unless, you really have started to dismantle these false beliefs from your thoughts. Otherwise, yes you might very well be "triggered." However, I honestly believe now it won't be the T&A that is triggering you, but in fact, it will be your beliefs that they do, that will be causing the trouble in your life.
I feel like a human again
Not hiding in the shadows
But living in the light
How you choose to see your world, is how you will act in it.
Hi, @new reality.
Yes, I get this. I actually have probably listened to a quarter of their podcasts, so I know what you're saying. It's a lot of good stuff, especially in regards to explaining the book and filling out their philosophy better, however, it is lacking when it comes to what you're saying. They do talk a good bit about Cognitive Behavioral Therapy which I think is great, although I've never sought it out professionally. This would make sense too because CBT is all about beliefs and how they influence your actions and moods, which is very similar to the Freedom Model approach. Good stuff. However, I do see that the podcast lacks in other departments, and could be annoying when they say, just do this and that, and your life will be better!
I find the podcast to be helpful, though like everything else, I don't always agree with it all.
I hope we keep on talking, new reality.
You all have a great porn-free Sunday.
P.S.
We also watched a "sexy" movie last night together with a moderate amount of T&A. Since reading this book over the last month and a half, I've been watching a movie here and there that I never would have before because of my fear of being "triggered." Knowing now that there is no such thing, and that it was only a false belief, that is, a false cause and effect, has been truly liberating. Thus, the "mythology" of seeing some random tits and ass (or not random) and suddenly "finding myself" watching porn or strip cams, has been almost completely dismantled from my thoughts. Sometimes I've had to stop and think about it it for a moment, but then I realize there is no true connection between the two, and that's it. At this point, it's almost sad and completely laughable that I even thought there was such a thing not very long ago.
But here's the deal, not very long ago...
I thought I was a life long addict
I thought my brain was fucked and wired to porn
I thought seeing a sex scene or boobies automatically "leads me like a zombie" to watch strip cams
I thought and believed in many more false causes and effects
I wouldn't recommend anyone do what I did last night, unless, you really have started to dismantle these false beliefs from your thoughts. Otherwise, yes you might very well be "triggered." However, I honestly believe now it won't be the T&A that is triggering you, but in fact, it will be your beliefs that they do, that will be causing the trouble in your life.
I feel like a human again
Not hiding in the shadows
But living in the light
How you choose to see your world, is how you will act in it.
I just wanted to say, you're an inspiration. The most I've gone in my life is 60 days, so I haven't still hit the escape velocity you had hit when you started this 3 years ago. It's truly inspiring to know that:
A) this is possible
B) even as I do that, I might still have some rought patches ahead... but that's OKAY if it happens as that can be the path to recovery as your story demonstrates
I wonder if you might be able to give me any advice, especially if you happened to successfully help others in the past and have come up with a "formula" or approach that tends to work? I'm sure if you do there is some in the previous page, but there would be a lot to go through!
A) this is possible
B) even as I do that, I might still have some rought patches ahead... but that's OKAY if it happens as that can be the path to recovery as your story demonstrates
I wonder if you might be able to give me any advice, especially if you happened to successfully help others in the past and have come up with a "formula" or approach that tends to work? I'm sure if you do there is some in the previous page, but there would be a lot to go through!
Blondie
Respected Member
Day 615
Hi, @der. Thanks for stopping by!
I will get back to you when I can. I'm a little busy at the moment. I would say though, if you have time to read something in the next few days, the last five pages are the best of all the 172 pages I've written so far. I've changed my ideas about a lot of this recently and it seems to be working. I'll write more soon.
Best
Hi, @der. Thanks for stopping by!
I will get back to you when I can. I'm a little busy at the moment. I would say though, if you have time to read something in the next few days, the last five pages are the best of all the 172 pages I've written so far. I've changed my ideas about a lot of this recently and it seems to be working. I'll write more soon.
Best
achilles heel
Respected Member
It’s very motivating to see someone actually succeeding and giving new insights on a “life after addiction”, didn’t believe it was possible and I’m not anywhere near to have gained enough distance to porn to judge on your theories about triggers and not going back.
I honestly think that I’m going to be a life long addict who has to keep this under control at every second for the rest of my days and sometimes this thought kills all motivation. I hope to be proven wrong.
I honestly think that I’m going to be a life long addict who has to keep this under control at every second for the rest of my days and sometimes this thought kills all motivation. I hope to be proven wrong.
Blondie
Respected Member
Blondie
Respected Member
Hi @der. I hope things are well for you. Sorry it's taking me a while to get back to you. Things are busy.
60 days is quite a lot, so don't feel like it's not. Every time we accomplish something like that, it only shows us that it's entirely possible to do this again and again. I've definitely have had plenty of "rough patches" on this journey, in fact, we all have, so don't get discouraged if you run into one here and there.
Well, my advice currently will be different than it has been in the past, though, some of it has remained the same. I would pick up the book The Freedom Model, which you can find for free online. I've been reading it, and rereading the last few months, and it has been lifechanging for me. The basic gist of it is this
We are not addicts
Our brains are not messed up from porn use
and even if the "are"
this doesn't hinder us from stopping this habit
We are in charge of our behavior
Nothing is "controlling us"
We always have the freedom to choose
And we have the freedom now to not choose porn
End of story
I could go on and on, and if you read the last ten pages of my thread, so see that I do. However, this works for me, because in many ways, many of these themes have been running through my thread since the beginning. But the book really clarified all of these running motifs into one glorious whole. Nevertheless, this seems to be working for me, but it might not for you. To each their own. My advice would be, read the book, and apply it to your life and see if it works.
Best,
and good luck!
Hi, @achilles heel, thanks for stopping by!
Since you stopped by my thread and I'm not on yours, I feel I have the right to preach my message.
First of all, I must say, this is not my theory. I wouldn't lay claim to that. Most of what I've written lately comes from the book The Freedom Model, which I would highly recommend. You can find it for free online. I can't recommend it enough. However, I can't say or promise it will work for you, because we are all different and our needs are different. I also can't deny that my thoughts and ideas about this book have been influenced by the fact that I am quite far from my last porn experience. Furthermore, just to be perfectly clear, I don't deny that "triggers" are not real, in the sense that we all have felt that pull to look at porn after first stopping. However, I would I now interpret that "pull" or "trigger" the same as the pull to keep eating more food, after I've decided to loose weight. For the first weeks of my diet, I can't deny I feel "triggers" or the pull, either from my habit of over eating, and my brains habit formation because of my previous actions, or something else. However, if I really want to loose weight, I can easily move on from the triggers, because the end goal seems more promising and happier than not. I now feel the same about my porn viewing. Life is better without it. Especially living in harmony and truth with my Lady.
Again, since you're on my thread, I have to strongly disagree with you.
I think the thought that we are life long addicts is one of the worse things we can think. And I don't blame you for that thought by the way. You've been (We've been) told that over and over again, so much so that we believe it without ever questioning it. This is not our fault. However, each of us are in charge of the information we look at and believe in, especially as adults, and since this is such a massive factor in your life, I would highly suggest you stop and think, is this really true? Perhaps read that book just to give you a different perspective. It doesn't mean it's all "correct" either, but it will remove you from the echo chamber of the "porn addiction" model. Then, you can choose for yourself which parts to believe in on both sides of the aisle, making you in the end a more rounded man and individual. I had never heard about this information until recently, and when I did, the scales fell from my eyes.
However, I completely agree with you. Thinking and believing that this will be a lifetime battle, wipes out all determination. How could it not?
I sincerely ask you this. When you look at porn, who is in charge? Is it your addicted brain? is it you? is it both? Are you fighting yourself? Or, are you fighting something "outside of you?" If it's your brain, who is in charge of your brain? If it's not you in charge, then who is it? Who else is there besides you? Here's another question, is it you who decides to go to work in the morning, then your brain helps you, by making it easier with its great learning capabilities (aka, learning how to drive to work, or a route to a new job)? Or is it the other way around? Your brain decides to drive to work, and you are "compelled" to go along with it? And if that's really true, are we even human, with no thoughts or agency of our own, but mere animals tossed about by our biochemistry? The problem with the addicted brain model is that it has completely backwards. It posits that we have practically no control whatsoever, or loss of control. However, that's not what the brain does. It's NOT in charge. WE are.
In the morning, I decide to go to work, and then, my brain helps me with that task. It helps me by automating the route (especially a new one!), automating the skills to drive, and so forth. So much so, that I hardly have to think about it, it "just happens." However, my brain doesn't "compel" me like a zombie to walk to the car uncontrollably. It doesn't compel me to "find myself" driving when I didn't decide to. No. None of these things just "happen" unless I've chosen them to happen. All the brain can do is facilitate what decisions I've made, and that's it. So it's true, I could say my brain is "hardwired to porn" just like it's "hardwired to drive automatically." This is true. It's a habit we've done over and over again, thus, the brain has been doing what it always does, that is, make it easier for us to do. But that's all it can do. It doesn't force us to look at porn, just like it doesn't force us to drive when we don't want to. All it can do is help when we decide to do these activities.
We have control
We have control
We have control
Mind over matter
Best my friend
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Blondie
Respected Member
Addendum
I was just thinking over what I wrote about above, and I want to add something because there's more nuance to this. I wrote above that "my brain doesn't "compel" me like a zombie to walk to the car uncontrollably." This is true and I stand by it. However, I think when many people mention their "zombie" like behavior, they are speaking in the sense that it seems their actions seem "mindless" and that they're just "drifting along" when they are looking at porn. I think this is true. Nevertheless, I will use the car analogy again because it fits perfectly. When we've been driving for years, and especially around our house and our route to work, we know the roads like the back of our hands, and it's almost mindless when we're driving. This is also why there's more accidents by people's houses than not. This is because our brains are hardwired to the roads in our daily lives. They have automated our driving so much that we don't even "think" about it. It almost "just happens." This is similar to looking at porn for hours on end. We've driven the roads and neighborhoods of Porn Hub so many times, that it's all automatic and just "happens" naturally. However, say, if a pedestrian would happen to walk into the road, or say your wife into your living room, suddenly, we are pulled out of our "zombie" like existence and decide to change course. And this makes sense. We have been in charge the whole time, however, the activity we are doing is so automated, it can feel like it's not in our control exactly. But our actions to save ourselves in both situations show us that we do and did have control, it was only the brain functioning as it does, that gives us the illusion that we did not have control. However, where we run into problems is when we transfer this real sense of "mindless" activity to the decision on our part to either walk to the car to drive, or go to our computer and look at porn. These are real decisions that are happening even it they don't "feel" like it. They are not mindless. Sure, it's a habit to walk to the car every morning, just like it's a habit to walk to the computer to whack one, however, this is a decision on our part, and just like we can choose not to drive to work, we can choose not to look at porn.
Okay, I'm done now.
You all have a great porn-free Saturday.
I was just thinking over what I wrote about above, and I want to add something because there's more nuance to this. I wrote above that "my brain doesn't "compel" me like a zombie to walk to the car uncontrollably." This is true and I stand by it. However, I think when many people mention their "zombie" like behavior, they are speaking in the sense that it seems their actions seem "mindless" and that they're just "drifting along" when they are looking at porn. I think this is true. Nevertheless, I will use the car analogy again because it fits perfectly. When we've been driving for years, and especially around our house and our route to work, we know the roads like the back of our hands, and it's almost mindless when we're driving. This is also why there's more accidents by people's houses than not. This is because our brains are hardwired to the roads in our daily lives. They have automated our driving so much that we don't even "think" about it. It almost "just happens." This is similar to looking at porn for hours on end. We've driven the roads and neighborhoods of Porn Hub so many times, that it's all automatic and just "happens" naturally. However, say, if a pedestrian would happen to walk into the road, or say your wife into your living room, suddenly, we are pulled out of our "zombie" like existence and decide to change course. And this makes sense. We have been in charge the whole time, however, the activity we are doing is so automated, it can feel like it's not in our control exactly. But our actions to save ourselves in both situations show us that we do and did have control, it was only the brain functioning as it does, that gives us the illusion that we did not have control. However, where we run into problems is when we transfer this real sense of "mindless" activity to the decision on our part to either walk to the car to drive, or go to our computer and look at porn. These are real decisions that are happening even it they don't "feel" like it. They are not mindless. Sure, it's a habit to walk to the car every morning, just like it's a habit to walk to the computer to whack one, however, this is a decision on our part, and just like we can choose not to drive to work, we can choose not to look at porn.
Okay, I'm done now.
You all have a great porn-free Saturday.
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Thank you @Blondie I have already read the freedom model, and I've used a similar methods for 2 other habits in my life. Something about porn is just not clicking, maybe deep down I still feel it's the best path for me? It's absurd, but can't explain otherwise how many urges I'm having while I've had times in the the past where it felt very natural and great to quit porn. Thank you for your encouragement and message!
ps: indeed that's the issue, I still feel porn is fun and can bring good stuff. But if I grow up and evolve, I realise that's not the case and have a glimpse of real insight and wisdom: as I do that just now, urges fully disappear. Porn is not the happy path: nor in 10 seconds, nor in 1 week, nor in 1 year, nor ever. Why would I ever want to do that? When I have such clarity, my struggles end and I feel at at peace.
ps: indeed that's the issue, I still feel porn is fun and can bring good stuff. But if I grow up and evolve, I realise that's not the case and have a glimpse of real insight and wisdom: as I do that just now, urges fully disappear. Porn is not the happy path: nor in 10 seconds, nor in 1 week, nor in 1 year, nor ever. Why would I ever want to do that? When I have such clarity, my struggles end and I feel at at peace.
achilles heel
Respected Member
Since you stopped by my thread and I'm not on yours, I feel I have the right to preach my message.
…
Again, since you're on my thread, I have to strongly disagree with you.
First of all: Thank you very much for answering in such detail, I read it with much interest and will read the book you recommended.
Feel always free to answer with all honesty, either here or over there at my thread, it’s not a “safe space” and I appreciate your thoughtful insights a lot - you’re a great help and I would never get offended by someone telling me “Look at your approach, it isn’t working, here’s (maybe) why…”
But I think I didn’t express myself right, because I pretty much hope you’re right and I’m wrong. That’s why I thought it was interesting you could watch a movie with some explicit content without “getting triggered”.
I’ve got my experience from quitting a moderate cocaine addiction and even over five years later I sometimes have dreams about consuming again and deep down there is this voice telling me once in a while “All damage aside: That was some great fun back then!”. I don’t want to go back there and I do feel like I’m in control, but it’s never going to be the way it was before becoming an addict. My brain lost its “innocence” and those paths are there. The distance I gained is now very strong and I can even go to parties where others consume and not even a white line in front of me would cause any trouble at this point. But the memory of its effect is there, the dreams are there (maybe 2-3 times a year) and once I’d do a single line I’d be a frequent user again instantly! It honestly scares me, because my cocaine habit was not nearly as bad and over such a long time as my porn consumption (over two decades). At some point of recovery there is this voice in my head telling me “You can’t fight this battle forever, give in and stop torturing yourself”. Reading your perspective from the other side is giving me hope, but at the same point I strongly internalized this thought of “I’m an addict and will never return to normal.” and can confirm that it does hold me back. I’m looking forward to get another perspective and will read the book.