Porn is not an option
- Thread starter Blondie
- Start date
I'd like to return to the issue of habituation...because it seems vital to know if there's a solution to the conundrum. If there isn't and the only option is to remain miserably horny all the time - in or out of a relationship - then it's harder to rationalize stepping away from porn use/promiscuity (as a short-term goal)...even though there are unquestionable personal benefits from stepping away from them in the longer term.
For one thing, turnover in relationships is exhausting and distracting despite the thrills of seduction/being seduced. It gets in the way of more meaningful contributions or one's life's work, whatever it may be.
My hunch is that the only way past the screaming insistence of our mating neurochemistry and its plans for our love lives is to incorporate into our partnerships some higher purpose, whether it be, for example, service to others or clearer spiritual perception. If the relationship is primarily based on pursuit of passion (physical gratification), with or without conservation of sexual energy, then the outcome is likely to be stagnation...or pursuit of more passion/dopamine as we try in vain to scratch our itch. And we know sexual novelty reliably raises dopamine, so it will remain on the menu, creating restlessness.
I recently read a book in which a great warrior ultimately realized that when he and his brother took over various principalities because they had the might to do it, they were giving the next strong warrior(s) permission to destabilize things again in the future. Endless war was the only possible outcome. Pursuit of passion as one's highest goal for relationships, hoping that with either one partner or a series one might find contentment, seems to be equally a dead/deteriorating end.
I'm not saying you're doing this, BTW. It's clear you are not, but equally clear that your mating neurochemistry is creating dissatisfaction and marring your contentment...to a degree. I'm merely saying that to the extent partners have a larger end than personal physical gratification, it becomes almost effortless to ignore such impulses. It almost seems like our reward circuitry needs something to strive for, and if we give it something larger to strive for, it leaves off driving us so relentlessly toward the lower-order mammalian appetites.
So, instead of focusing on our frustration at never being able to satisfy appetites that evolved never to be satisfied for long (because that is the job of mammalian survival instincts...to keep us focused on meeting their short-term urgings for resources and propagating genes), perhaps it's worth clarifying what your larger service might be.
I mention this only because your service to this forum is so inspiring. It's clear that part of you is reaching for this kind of larger service anyway. Is your current partner someone with whom you could engage in some larger, joint project? If not, perhaps that is the cause of your restlessness, rather than mere sexual novelty. In any case, I wouldn't jump ship until you have a clear idea of what your life purpose is and how she may, or may not, fit into it, or you may well be on a distracting merry-go-round rather than a path to greater contentment.
BTW, my thoughts about this are based on personal experience...both with the merry-go-round
and union for service to others.
For one thing, turnover in relationships is exhausting and distracting despite the thrills of seduction/being seduced. It gets in the way of more meaningful contributions or one's life's work, whatever it may be.
My hunch is that the only way past the screaming insistence of our mating neurochemistry and its plans for our love lives is to incorporate into our partnerships some higher purpose, whether it be, for example, service to others or clearer spiritual perception. If the relationship is primarily based on pursuit of passion (physical gratification), with or without conservation of sexual energy, then the outcome is likely to be stagnation...or pursuit of more passion/dopamine as we try in vain to scratch our itch. And we know sexual novelty reliably raises dopamine, so it will remain on the menu, creating restlessness.
I recently read a book in which a great warrior ultimately realized that when he and his brother took over various principalities because they had the might to do it, they were giving the next strong warrior(s) permission to destabilize things again in the future. Endless war was the only possible outcome. Pursuit of passion as one's highest goal for relationships, hoping that with either one partner or a series one might find contentment, seems to be equally a dead/deteriorating end.
I'm not saying you're doing this, BTW. It's clear you are not, but equally clear that your mating neurochemistry is creating dissatisfaction and marring your contentment...to a degree. I'm merely saying that to the extent partners have a larger end than personal physical gratification, it becomes almost effortless to ignore such impulses. It almost seems like our reward circuitry needs something to strive for, and if we give it something larger to strive for, it leaves off driving us so relentlessly toward the lower-order mammalian appetites.
So, instead of focusing on our frustration at never being able to satisfy appetites that evolved never to be satisfied for long (because that is the job of mammalian survival instincts...to keep us focused on meeting their short-term urgings for resources and propagating genes), perhaps it's worth clarifying what your larger service might be.
I mention this only because your service to this forum is so inspiring. It's clear that part of you is reaching for this kind of larger service anyway. Is your current partner someone with whom you could engage in some larger, joint project? If not, perhaps that is the cause of your restlessness, rather than mere sexual novelty. In any case, I wouldn't jump ship until you have a clear idea of what your life purpose is and how she may, or may not, fit into it, or you may well be on a distracting merry-go-round rather than a path to greater contentment.
BTW, my thoughts about this are based on personal experience...both with the merry-go-round
and union for service to others.
Blondie
Respected Member
Day 608 (20 months!)
@Androg, thank you so much for that beautiful and thoughtful post yesterday. It really made my day and I very much appreciate it. I've been thinking a lot about it, and have much to say, but don't have time at the moment to write a long post which it deserves, but I just wanted to let you know it meant a lot. Thank you.
Thanks @GBS! It's hard to believe, but true.
Well, I just discovered something called a Body Fat Percentage to Weight Calculator, and all I can say is, where has this been all this time? Anyway, it's good to know what I need to do to actually get to 15% body fat, but it's also a little disheartening to say the least. It looks like I need to loose exactly 20 pounds to get to my goal, and that is without losing any of my current muscle mass. Although this is a little humbling, it's also good to know EXACTLY where I am and what I need to do to get there. Fuck, why can't there be a Porn Mind to Recovered Mind Calculator?
Best all
@Androg, thank you so much for that beautiful and thoughtful post yesterday. It really made my day and I very much appreciate it. I've been thinking a lot about it, and have much to say, but don't have time at the moment to write a long post which it deserves, but I just wanted to let you know it meant a lot. Thank you.
Thanks @GBS! It's hard to believe, but true.
Well, I just discovered something called a Body Fat Percentage to Weight Calculator, and all I can say is, where has this been all this time? Anyway, it's good to know what I need to do to actually get to 15% body fat, but it's also a little disheartening to say the least. It looks like I need to loose exactly 20 pounds to get to my goal, and that is without losing any of my current muscle mass. Although this is a little humbling, it's also good to know EXACTLY where I am and what I need to do to get there. Fuck, why can't there be a Porn Mind to Recovered Mind Calculator?
Best all
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First_step_thousand_miles
Well-Known Member
With weight, I'd just remember one thing. The scale isn't the only thing that matters on fat loss -- what if you lost 5lb of fat but gained 2lb of muscle? Might be disappointing to see you only lost 3lb
To really measure fat loss (vs overall weight change) I'd look at your belt buckle. Rule of thumb is one loop on the belt is 8lb of fat loss, so see how much you've lost there. Since early this year, I think I've lost 2-3 buckles. Trying to lose another 2-3. You got this!
Blondie
Respected Member
Day 609
Thanks for the tip @First_step_thousand_miles! I think in this case it is in every respect a fat loss issue. A year ago at my lowest weight I was 192 lbs. and 18% body fat (my lowest weight and body fat ever), right now I'm at 208 lbs.. and 22.8%. And knowing now what I know from that Body Fat Percentage to Weight Calculator, with my current weight and composition, at 15% body fat I would be 188 lbs. Looking at this now I would definitely posit that that was one hell of a dirty bulking phase! But all joking aside, this is all new for me so I don't feel too bad, and it's nice to know and understand what I did wrong and what I did right over this last year. I was correctly looking at body fat percentages and food, but I didn't have the other piece of the puzzle, body composition and what that would actually look like on me, thus, I was stuck in an old paradigm of what I thought "I should be" or "look like", which brings me to my next point.
What are our old paradigms and how do they affect us?
For most of my adult life, funny enough, I thought my good and natural weight was around 210, and even in my early 20s when I was "working out" that was my normal weight and I saw nothing wrong with it. Obviously, I never knew anything about body composition, body fat percentage, or even eating the right amount of foods to actually bulk and build muscle, I was a tall skinny fucker who was utterly in the dark about such things! Nevertheless, two years ago when I embarked on my weight loss journey (I was 240 lbs.!), I still had all of those old paradigms about myself in my head, thus, with my new knowledge of body fat percentages, I figured when I got down to 210 I would be quite close to 15% body fat, how wrong I was! When I did eventually get to 210 (22% body fat) I couldn't believe how far I still had to go, I suddenly realized that what I had thought was "normal" for most my adult life, was actually way off base from reality. Then I thought, 200 lbs. will definitely get me there, I'll just drop ten more pounds, but nope, 200 lbs. was just 20%, absolutely healthy (especially for a 39 year old man living in America), but way off from where I wanted to be. Once again, I could not believe what I was seeing on the scale and in the mirror, is this what healthy actually looks like? This might all sound funny to read, but it was a real phenomenon in my head, and it was really hard to wrap my head around. Needless to say, I did decide to go further and I eventually got down to 192 and 18% body fat before I quit a year ago because I "feared" going down any further. However, yesterday, I finally discovered the Body Fat Percentage to Weight Calculator and the rest of the puzzle finally came into view, my old paradigm about myself and what I thought was "healthy" was utterly wrong and removed from reality. If I would have just stuck with my weight loss journey, I would have got to 15% body fat at 182 lbs. Then, I would have had plenty of room to bulk without getting too big like I am at the moment. Lessons learned and a crazy journey to boot, however, what does any of this have to do with porn? Well, glad you asked.
What are our porn paradigms?
Our paradigms about porn are very similar to my old paradigms about my "correct" weight. When you've internalized a value system to such an extent, as to believe it and even act on it, even after being shown that it is false or even harmful to you, that is the sign that your paradigm needs to be changed for any long term growth to happen. And just like with my false ideas about health and normality, porn has a shit ton of false paradigms that one must rid themselves of to be able to move on to real truth and freedom.
Here is one of my old false paradigms concerning porn and my porn use.
Porn is actually pleasurable
This is common for many of us here, and it is extremely potent in its power to seduce us, especially at our weakest moments. The fact of the matter is, porn is neither pleasurable either in the moment, nor in the long run, simply because, that which destroys us in the end cannot be considered true pleasure. Porn might have been "pleasurable" when we first started out on our journey with it, often out of a sense of sexual curiosity, however, if you're here then that ship has sailed a long time ago. Pleasure is the wrong term to ever define porn again because it is not true pleasure. Thus, if you still find yourself thinking or saying to yourself, porn is fun and pleasurable, and I just wish I could take a little peek, then you're still living in that old paradigm. Say this instead, There is NO pleasure in porn. No, not even one bit.
What porn paradigms do you guys hate to a passion, yet, you still find yourself believing in? After yesterday's discovery about my health and what that might or could even look like for me, I'll be thinking more about how this relates to porn and the paradigms I formed over the years because of them.
Our paradigms are like the internal structures of a high rise building, while our habits, good or bad, are the external façade (windows, bricks etc.) that everyone sees. However, the internal structure connects all those nodes and floors of thoughts together, creating our habits, and thus, solidifying them into a whole building. Some foundations and internal structures are really strong and are able to withstand the greatest damage and forces, while others fall because of internal decay or original structural defects. What we all believe about ourselves and our reasons and rationalizations for our habits, can really affect us in the long term. Let us build strong foundations to support our good habits, and let us demolish our false paradigms that have created our bad habits and behaviors.
Peace!
Thanks for the tip @First_step_thousand_miles! I think in this case it is in every respect a fat loss issue. A year ago at my lowest weight I was 192 lbs. and 18% body fat (my lowest weight and body fat ever), right now I'm at 208 lbs.. and 22.8%. And knowing now what I know from that Body Fat Percentage to Weight Calculator, with my current weight and composition, at 15% body fat I would be 188 lbs. Looking at this now I would definitely posit that that was one hell of a dirty bulking phase!
But all joking aside, this is all new for me so I don't feel too bad, and it's nice to know and understand what I did wrong and what I did right over this last year. I was correctly looking at body fat percentages and food, but I didn't have the other piece of the puzzle, body composition and what that would actually look like on me, thus, I was stuck in an old paradigm of what I thought "I should be" or "look like", which brings me to my next point.What are our old paradigms and how do they affect us?
For most of my adult life, funny enough, I thought my good and natural weight was around 210, and even in my early 20s when I was "working out" that was my normal weight and I saw nothing wrong with it. Obviously, I never knew anything about body composition, body fat percentage, or even eating the right amount of foods to actually bulk and build muscle, I was a tall skinny fucker who was utterly in the dark about such things! Nevertheless, two years ago when I embarked on my weight loss journey (I was 240 lbs.!), I still had all of those old paradigms about myself in my head, thus, with my new knowledge of body fat percentages, I figured when I got down to 210 I would be quite close to 15% body fat, how wrong I was! When I did eventually get to 210 (22% body fat) I couldn't believe how far I still had to go, I suddenly realized that what I had thought was "normal" for most my adult life, was actually way off base from reality. Then I thought, 200 lbs. will definitely get me there, I'll just drop ten more pounds, but nope, 200 lbs. was just 20%, absolutely healthy (especially for a 39 year old man living in America), but way off from where I wanted to be. Once again, I could not believe what I was seeing on the scale and in the mirror, is this what healthy actually looks like? This might all sound funny to read, but it was a real phenomenon in my head, and it was really hard to wrap my head around. Needless to say, I did decide to go further and I eventually got down to 192 and 18% body fat before I quit a year ago because I "feared" going down any further. However, yesterday, I finally discovered the Body Fat Percentage to Weight Calculator and the rest of the puzzle finally came into view, my old paradigm about myself and what I thought was "healthy" was utterly wrong and removed from reality. If I would have just stuck with my weight loss journey, I would have got to 15% body fat at 182 lbs. Then, I would have had plenty of room to bulk without getting too big like I am at the moment. Lessons learned and a crazy journey to boot, however, what does any of this have to do with porn? Well, glad you asked.
What are our porn paradigms?
Our paradigms about porn are very similar to my old paradigms about my "correct" weight. When you've internalized a value system to such an extent, as to believe it and even act on it, even after being shown that it is false or even harmful to you, that is the sign that your paradigm needs to be changed for any long term growth to happen. And just like with my false ideas about health and normality, porn has a shit ton of false paradigms that one must rid themselves of to be able to move on to real truth and freedom.
Here is one of my old false paradigms concerning porn and my porn use.
Porn is actually pleasurable
This is common for many of us here, and it is extremely potent in its power to seduce us, especially at our weakest moments. The fact of the matter is, porn is neither pleasurable either in the moment, nor in the long run, simply because, that which destroys us in the end cannot be considered true pleasure. Porn might have been "pleasurable" when we first started out on our journey with it, often out of a sense of sexual curiosity, however, if you're here then that ship has sailed a long time ago. Pleasure is the wrong term to ever define porn again because it is not true pleasure. Thus, if you still find yourself thinking or saying to yourself, porn is fun and pleasurable, and I just wish I could take a little peek, then you're still living in that old paradigm. Say this instead, There is NO pleasure in porn. No, not even one bit.
What porn paradigms do you guys hate to a passion, yet, you still find yourself believing in? After yesterday's discovery about my health and what that might or could even look like for me, I'll be thinking more about how this relates to porn and the paradigms I formed over the years because of them.
Our paradigms are like the internal structures of a high rise building, while our habits, good or bad, are the external façade (windows, bricks etc.) that everyone sees. However, the internal structure connects all those nodes and floors of thoughts together, creating our habits, and thus, solidifying them into a whole building. Some foundations and internal structures are really strong and are able to withstand the greatest damage and forces, while others fall because of internal decay or original structural defects. What we all believe about ourselves and our reasons and rationalizations for our habits, can really affect us in the long term. Let us build strong foundations to support our good habits, and let us demolish our false paradigms that have created our bad habits and behaviors.
Peace!
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Ezel
Respected Member
Congratulations my brother. You are the
light of this forum. God bless you Blondie. You keep doing your thing champ 
.
swimmer97
Active Member
Hell yes, please someone invent this. On a serious note. The science around our neurochemicals in our brains is still in stone age time. I wonder what is possible / is known in 100years from now. I wonder if porn is treated more like hard drugs especially for peoeple below 18.
Regrading the paradigms, very inspiring. I know exactly what you mean with these eye openers. They can change everything. GL on your weight loss journey. Please keep us updated. Keep killing
Blondie
Respected Member
Day 610
Thanks @Ezel, keep killing it brother and keep burning down those boats!
I'm well aware that it's hard to have a future with someone, when you don't even know yet what your future has in store for yourself! Fortunately or unfortunately, by my very nature, I've always liked to keep my options open, and I don't mean just with women, I mean everything: jobs and future career prospects, my ideas and philosophy and what I believe or don't, my interests and hobbies, and most importantly, my precious time, and what I want to do with it. Intellectually speaking, there hasn't been a road I haven't been down or at least considered for a moment, imagine that mind when it comes to choosing a woman? And like I said, I HAVE figured out a general direction of where I'm heading, but it's not a straight line from point A to point B or due north for that matter, no, it's more like a sweeping range in a north-westerly direction, with every mountain peak and valley being explored along the way. What can I say, I'm an artist at heart, and if I forced myself to not be this way (and believe me I've tried!) I wouldn't be me. But yes, this disposition of mine can make it extremely frustrating to know what I believe about anything, much less, what woman I should settle down with, that is, if I even what to settle down.
I think it would be great to have a life mission and share it with someone, my problem is, I'm still working on that mission to some extent, and I'm still trying to figure out who that someone should be. Maybe it's her (she is wonderful!) and I'm just stuck in the porn brain that's making my natural disposition go ever crazier with "female possibilities", or maybe I know the answer and I'm just using porn now as an excuse. However, considering how fucked and sexualized my mind was just a few days ago (not horny) the situation is slightly complicated. A couple of months ago, I thought I might actually need to leave this relationship, but now I'm not so sure.
I've been to several weddings over the last few years, and I always find myself asking, how the fuck to people do that? That is, walk down the aisle so giddy and ridiculously happy. Don't they know there's a 50% chance it won't work out? Do they not see if this was a business investment it would be considered the stupidest business decision ever? Don't they know someone will probably cheat or want to during the modern world's insane life expectancy rates? Don't they know that one of them statistically speaking is more likely than not just settling down because of fears of being alone and NOT because of something called "love" or "having found the one"? Don't they know that monogamy might have worked when we all died at the age of 60, but not with the future predictions of brain, heart and 12" cock transplants at the age of 160? Do they not realize that modern marriage is just a clusterfuck of Disney bullshit, Hallmark and Consumer Capitalism, with many men just wanting to lock down sex for "love" and quite a few women wanting the "wedding" but not the actual marriage?
Then I get all heartsick when thinking about this shit, and wonder how could it be that a guy so romantic as myself, would also be cursed with overthinking such matters!
Welcome to my brain
Thanks again for the post. It really meant a lot.
Thanks @Ezel, keep killing it brother and keep burning down those boats!
Hey @swimmer97, yes, who knows, hopefully at that time they will start treating it like the problem it actually is and not just ignore it. And you're right about the science behind this, we really are just on the tip of the iceberg when it comes to knowledge of this stuff.
Thanks man, I will.
Hey @Androg, I would definitely agree, there needs to be a solution here in one way or another. I would say though that the "horniness" I was talking about recently was still porn induced, which I think has subsided a little over the last few days. I'm still horny like always, but I'm doing okay, what was going on there (the last week or so) was definitely the old porn pathways coming back for a moment and sexualizing everything, which is still surprising this far out but not that crazy.
Yes and yes. And the energy just thinking about it is mind numbing. I hate to think how much time I've lost thinking and over analyzing this relationship and what I should or should not do about it.
I agree with this too. Any kind of pleasure in the moment, if it removes pleasure and contentment in the future, is really not true pleasure in the truest sense of the term. I don't think I would leave this relationship just to "get some!" although yes, that's tempting sometimes when you have the option, and yes I know you're not implying that. And I also see and understand that sex is just one of the many pleasures of life and it's not the meaning of it, and we need some higher purpose than just having fun with our cocks out.
I think this last paragraph is my main "problem" and it's what I need to figure out, although to be honest I'm really tired of trying to "figure" this out, that is, the relationship part. As far as my purpose goes, that is also a work in progress but it is becoming more clear these days. What I'm going to school for is definitely a passion of mine, and I should be able to get a job with it afterwards, although I'm still not 100% sure that will be my main thing for the long run. One of my main problems is that I still don't have a clear vision of what I want just yet, although I know I'm heading in the right direction. I'm kind of a late bloomer to be honest, both by personality and because of circumstances from my childhood, which I won't be getting into here. Needless to say, although I'm forty and more mature than most of my peers at school, in some ways, I feel I'm in the same situation in life as many of them, that is, just trying to figure out life for the first time and not being stuck at some shit job, although I'm not under any delusions that anyone ever has it completely "figured" out. I don't feel bad about this truth per se, but it is the truth of the matter and it was one of the driving factors of my porn habit in my 30s, just feeling sorry for myself and my situation. Of course, on the flipside, I don't really know if many of the things 'society' or 'people' care about are really my cup of tea, that is, marriage, a large savings account, a house, kids and a white picket fence. There's nothing wrong with those things per se, but they've never been terribly important to me, possibly because of my previously mentioned circumstances, but also from my own values which I hold very dear to my heart. But this leads me to my relationship, and what I should or should not do.
I'm well aware that it's hard to have a future with someone, when you don't even know yet what your future has in store for yourself! Fortunately or unfortunately, by my very nature, I've always liked to keep my options open, and I don't mean just with women, I mean everything: jobs and future career prospects, my ideas and philosophy and what I believe or don't, my interests and hobbies, and most importantly, my precious time, and what I want to do with it. Intellectually speaking, there hasn't been a road I haven't been down or at least considered for a moment, imagine that mind when it comes to choosing a woman? And like I said, I HAVE figured out a general direction of where I'm heading, but it's not a straight line from point A to point B or due north for that matter, no, it's more like a sweeping range in a north-westerly direction, with every mountain peak and valley being explored along the way. What can I say, I'm an artist at heart, and if I forced myself to not be this way (and believe me I've tried!) I wouldn't be me. But yes, this disposition of mine can make it extremely frustrating to know what I believe about anything, much less, what woman I should settle down with, that is, if I even what to settle down.
I think it would be great to have a life mission and share it with someone, my problem is, I'm still working on that mission to some extent, and I'm still trying to figure out who that someone should be. Maybe it's her (she is wonderful!) and I'm just stuck in the porn brain that's making my natural disposition go ever crazier with "female possibilities", or maybe I know the answer and I'm just using porn now as an excuse. However, considering how fucked and sexualized my mind was just a few days ago (not horny) the situation is slightly complicated. A couple of months ago, I thought I might actually need to leave this relationship, but now I'm not so sure.
I've been to several weddings over the last few years, and I always find myself asking, how the fuck to people do that? That is, walk down the aisle so giddy and ridiculously happy. Don't they know there's a 50% chance it won't work out? Do they not see if this was a business investment it would be considered the stupidest business decision ever? Don't they know someone will probably cheat or want to during the modern world's insane life expectancy rates? Don't they know that one of them statistically speaking is more likely than not just settling down because of fears of being alone and NOT because of something called "love" or "having found the one"? Don't they know that monogamy might have worked when we all died at the age of 60, but not with the future predictions of brain, heart and 12" cock transplants at the age of 160? Do they not realize that modern marriage is just a clusterfuck of Disney bullshit, Hallmark and Consumer Capitalism, with many men just wanting to lock down sex for "love" and quite a few women wanting the "wedding" but not the actual marriage?
Then I get all heartsick when thinking about this shit, and wonder how could it be that a guy so romantic as myself, would also be cursed with overthinking such matters!
Welcome to my brain
Thanks again for the post. It really meant a lot.
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Those are profound, important thoughts.
FWIW, I'd try to stay open to the possibility that you can receive useful insights via inner listening (and, indeed, already are/can be). There's no reason they should align with conventional values. Quite possibly you already do this. Pro tip: insight feels qualitatively different from appetite-driven impulses...although the latter can be a lot louder. It's also different from rational thought, and generally comes as a "flash" or "click."
I'd be slow to bolt out of any current course of action without such an insight. Often we're learning something important when when we think we're just wasting time. So seek guidance and wait. At this point in life you probably want to keep the empty joyrides to a minimum. They waste too much time and energy.
Trivia: Socrates spoke of his daemon, his term for his inner wisdom. He said it never told him what to do, but made it clear what he should not do.
FWIW, I'd try to stay open to the possibility that you can receive useful insights via inner listening (and, indeed, already are/can be). There's no reason they should align with conventional values. Quite possibly you already do this. Pro tip: insight feels qualitatively different from appetite-driven impulses...although the latter can be a lot louder.
It's also different from rational thought, and generally comes as a "flash" or "click."I'd be slow to bolt out of any current course of action without such an insight. Often we're learning something important when when we think we're just wasting time. So seek guidance and wait. At this point in life you probably want to keep the empty joyrides to a minimum. They waste too much time and energy.
Trivia: Socrates spoke of his daemon, his term for his inner wisdom. He said it never told him what to do, but made it clear what he should not do.
Blondie
Respected Member
swimmer97
Active Member
Loved reading this by the way. I feel every argument. I see lots of parents from friends that were the greatest honeymoon parents and still are divorcing after X years in marriage. Not even considering that awful economic side of marriage, i think that it is actually doing more bad than good when you put on these invisible handcuffs. Maybe my perspective will change but for now i see it as something simply not worth. I think its healthier for both sides to enjoy the feeling of beeing free. This feeling of being free again i think makes it easier to stick to one another even tho this sounds like a paradoxon.
Blondie
Respected Member
Yeah, I think the biggest problem with marriage, is not necessarily the idea of it, or even that you're "supposed" to be monogamous, but just the fact that it hasn't changed in its basic assumptions and outlook, while the whole wide world has utterly changed around it. It worked great, or mostly great, when everyone was encouraged to get married at a young age and divorce was looked down on and culturally shamed. Thus, it "worked" in the sense of what marriage has always traditionally been, that is, giving birth to the next generation through a partnership that might have been fulfilling, but more times than not, was pretty average at best. This whole idea of "romantic love" or finding "the one" and all the sentimental nonsense that goes along with the institution these days, not to mention the religious "morality" thrown in as well, just didn't exist for many cultures throughout the world in history. However, now that the world has utterly changed, and I'm not saying it's all for the better by the way (though I'm glad women have more freedom to be honest), the old ways of doing things simply don't work anymore, or at the very least, they need to be seriously rethought.
As far I'm concerned, most of the "sacred" parts of marriage were ordained by the priests and kings who never followed any of those sacred rules themselves (monogamy), no, those rules of holy matrimony where only for the plebs, think of David in the Bible or any king or noble for that matter in history. These people didn't have to follow the rules, but they had no problem using "God" or "religion" or the "good for society" to enforce their rules on the people. Now I'm not saying they all did this, nor am I saying monogamy is bad; however, Marriage isn't a holy institution, Marriage is a social institution created by evolutionary and cultural needs, and often for the needs of the men on top of the hierarchy. Just look how restless men are these days after the sexual revolution, how many men can't find a woman to commit to, much less a woman for even a night of sex (And no I'm not blaming women!) And look at all the women who are heartsick and on antidepressants in our society, older women waiting for the "perfect man", aka, the top 20% of men, whom will never come a-knocking, and you'll see why it was imperative for kings and rulers to play "god" and control society by the institution of marriage. One might even say that marriage creates order out of chaos. Why? Because every man in society on the scale of 3 to 10 gets a woman and can thus be productive for society (aka the king) and the women, since they're not in charge of picking the men, or at least not completely, will be given to a man who is equal to her in looks and stature, and if she's lucky, maybe just a little better. Hot players fucking 6s were not allowed! Think Pride and Prejudice
Both sides politically have it wrong and both are ironically similar in their ideological views about marriage and sexuality, but just in different ways. The conservatives with their monogamy forever mantra, only one sexual partner a lifetime trope, their naïveté about the nature of human sexuality, especially men's need for sexual variety (women too), and the shaming that comes with that, has real problems that need to be addressed. Plus, their overt moralizing about an institution that isn't moral but practical, and there incessant insistence for black and white solutions doesn't help the situation, not to mention their sometimes (though not all) sexist views on women and their sexuality. On the flip side, the left utterly denies both biology, evolution, and the differences between the sexes. Furthermore, the left has their own version of naïveté, but it's different than the right. Whereas the conservatives' naïveté comes from denying human sexuality in many of it's forms and varieties, the left denies all reality and goes for absolute freedom, promoting hookup culture while ignoring the consequences of it, and ironically becoming puritanical when trying to "fix it". Furthermore, the left blames all men for the faults of the few, while the conservatives blame the nature of men (men need to man up!), while conveniently forgetting the nature of women, à la Jorden Peterson.
Is there any wonder people turn to porn than deal with this insane shitstorm of lies, deceits and ideological hypocrisy?
Of course, marriage in of itself can be a beautiful thing, and obviously, it's a great outlet to have a family if you so desire. Furthermore, there's nothing wrong per se with sanctifying something of this earth, especially something as "sacred" as bringing in the next generation. However, rituals and rites are one thing, rigid religious or ideological thinking is another. I'm not cynical about marriage per se, but I do think modern men need to be real careful about how they choose to approach something so serious and potentially devastating if they marry the wrong girl. It's funny, although women are the ones who watch the romantic movies, it's us men who are the true idealists and romantics when it comes to "marriage" and having the "perfect wife and kids". I think modern men need to approach the matter with wisdom and foresight, and realize that marriage today is not the marriage of their fathers, and most definitely not of their grandfathers. The rules of the game have changed, and those who do not fully understand this fact will surely loose the game. Although there is nothing wrong with nostalgically looking at the past through rose-colored glasses, it is also doubly true we don't go riding to town on horses anymore, unless you're me!
This is true
Farewell
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Blondie
Respected Member
Exactly, which is why the rich can afford the "chaos" and the plebs cannot, think Elon Musk, Hollywood elites and all the rich people I've ever known. Their lives can be utter chaos sometimes, but the difference between them and the poor is they can actually afford it, the rest of us not so much. For most of history, the elites have pushed "traditional values" on the plebs, because at that time it was expedient and useful for them, now it seems "chaos" is more expedient for power grabs. To me this isn't a matter of morality, it's more about realizing the world is not the same as it used to be, and acting accordingly. The world has changed: condoms, birth control, easy divorce, a culture that praises women leaving a "bad marriage" while telling men to "man up" if he does (the conservatives). We're not playing by the same rules anymore, and men need to know that.
I think a normal father should want that. But I do think some fathers, especially on the more patriarchal side, get too evolved in the daughter's sex life. Women aren't children, they should be able to have sex and be responsible for their own actions just like us men should be able to. Having sex before marriage, or having more than one partner, doesn't mean a woman is a whore (not saying you think that). These extreme dichotomies on both sides are really annoying and do no good for the conversation.
I'm glad I could furnish a further platform for your views. I'm also glad you acknowledged that I am not saying women shouldn't have sex before marriage. I was just hypothesizing about where these rules come from. And my sentences were intended to be read together.
My guess is that parents typically have always wanted their kids to leave the nest and set up stable circumstances, and that many mores were created toward this end. Casual sex is destabilizing, just as is constantly watching erotic novelty (due to lingering dissatisfaction, as you have noted). The long-term costs are high, both to the individuals and society.
That said, I hope something larger is at work here, and that the painful breakdown of society may help us rethink things radically...just as you apparently think. I certainly don't think the genie can be put back in the bottle. Nor do I think that would be the most beneficial outcome. But the situation is very messy just now.
Personally I don't think marriage is the problem. In my view, the problem is the widening distance between men and women, and the growing distrust between them. Perhaps marriage has always been an economic "deal," but while it served some larger purpose, it may have "worked" for most, as you say.
Now, though, without some larger purpose for union between the sexes than physical gratification, connections very easily dissolve into mutual exploitation, habituation, uneasiness, and growing distrust. The "Why bother?" sentiment spreads. Rates of sexual activity are, in fact, plummeting with each generation. It's like watching someone pull down a zipper, quite apart from the gender-bending phenomenon.
And yet, from personal experience, I can say that given a union dedicated to a higher purpose, one that is not selfish, it is not so challenging to stay in a satisfying intimate relationship. Both partners tend to be willing to look past the random resentments of daily life because they have a larger goal in mind. That goal used to be having kids, and for some it may still be.
But the goal need not be physical progeny; other creations are possible too. That's why I urge people to think about what their life purposes might be and how their unions can satisfy both spouses at that level.
I'm also glad you acknowledged that I am not saying women shouldn't have sex before marriage. I was just hypothesizing about where these rules come from. And my sentences were intended to be read together.My guess is that parents typically have always wanted their kids to leave the nest and set up stable circumstances, and that many mores were created toward this end. Casual sex is destabilizing, just as is constantly watching erotic novelty (due to lingering dissatisfaction, as you have noted). The long-term costs are high, both to the individuals and society.
That said, I hope something larger is at work here, and that the painful breakdown of society may help us rethink things radically...just as you apparently think. I certainly don't think the genie can be put back in the bottle. Nor do I think that would be the most beneficial outcome. But the situation is very messy just now.
Personally I don't think marriage is the problem. In my view, the problem is the widening distance between men and women, and the growing distrust between them. Perhaps marriage has always been an economic "deal," but while it served some larger purpose, it may have "worked" for most, as you say.
Now, though, without some larger purpose for union between the sexes than physical gratification, connections very easily dissolve into mutual exploitation, habituation, uneasiness, and growing distrust. The "Why bother?" sentiment spreads. Rates of sexual activity are, in fact, plummeting with each generation. It's like watching someone pull down a zipper, quite apart from the gender-bending phenomenon.
And yet, from personal experience, I can say that given a union dedicated to a higher purpose, one that is not selfish, it is not so challenging to stay in a satisfying intimate relationship. Both partners tend to be willing to look past the random resentments of daily life because they have a larger goal in mind. That goal used to be having kids, and for some it may still be.
But the goal need not be physical progeny; other creations are possible too. That's why I urge people to think about what their life purposes might be and how their unions can satisfy both spouses at that level.
GBS
Respected Member
Gents, this is a great philosophical discussion. Absolutely loving reading your dissertations. I won’t dive in the middle because I am not sure I can add much. But if we want to think about a societal breakdown, errr….what happened to true love?
One of my sons is off to university in the autumn. We were on a dog walk the other day. He told me that he and his girlfriend have had a grown up chat about how they will deal with their relationship when they are apart and in different institutions. At one point he said…”it wasn’t difficult to decide what we should do because we love each other”. I patted him on the shoulder, told him he was a hero, and we started talking about our deep love of football (what you crazy yanks call “soccer”)!
One of my sons is off to university in the autumn. We were on a dog walk the other day. He told me that he and his girlfriend have had a grown up chat about how they will deal with their relationship when they are apart and in different institutions. At one point he said…”it wasn’t difficult to decide what we should do because we love each other”. I patted him on the shoulder, told him he was a hero, and we started talking about our deep love of football (what you crazy yanks call “soccer”)!
Blondie
Respected Member
Day 613
Thanks for the comment @Androg
To be honest, this is all conjecture, though it is something I've read a good deal about. It's a subject that really interests me and I find the question "How did we get here?" very pertinent for myself when it comes to not just "fixing" the porn problem, but also, why do we even have to fix this in the first place?
Thanks @Androg.
Thanks for the comment @Androg
Same here. One might say I'm philosophizing about this, or one might say I'm utterly talking out of my ass!
To be honest, this is all conjecture, though it is something I've read a good deal about. It's a subject that really interests me and I find the question "How did we get here?" very pertinent for myself when it comes to not just "fixing" the porn problem, but also, why do we even have to fix this in the first place?It is very messy and there's a lot noise on both sides that gets more attention than they should; however, I think for most of us in the middle, who have good and noble intentions, it's not hard to see the troubling signs brewing up ahead. Some might see it because of their religion, or some such as myself, more in a pragmatic historical sense, but either way, we've tasted the goblet of truth and it's hard to go back now.
Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with marriage, my concern is the cultural around which the institution of marriage finds itself in today, thus my warning to young men. Marriage is beautiful and necessary for most of us, maybe even for ol' Blondie one day, but the problem is that marriage is an institution that needs to be supported by the periphery cultural institutions that it inhabits, and that has completely changed over the last 60 years or so. Like I said, some of those changes are a good thing, but some of them probably not so much. Therefore, my warning to young men is just be conscious of this fact, because, just as you thought it was okay to look at thousands of naked women over the years and society even backed up your bullshit lifestyle, don't be deceived that your "perfect woman" has not ALSO been affected by the society that she lives in, especially when it comes to what exactly is a marriage and the expectations behind it. If you just want to hook up and have fun (which I personally don't have a problem with) great, just be careful and respectful, but if you really want to get serious with a woman, then your standards need to go way the fuck up. We live in a culture that says women are always right and men are by default always WRONG. Modern men hear this shit is just laugh and think it's funny. It's not. Thus, if you happened to marry one of those ladies who thinks this (and unfortunately even many good women do), well, you might just find yourself and your "perfect lady" five years down the road in a real shitstorm, that's all I'm saying. Choose with your mind and NOT your dick.
Truth. The "hook up culture" basically consist of the top 20% of men and the top 50% of women. However, since they're just hooking up, their sex life is not very consistent, of course, for everyone else, it doesn't exist at all.
Yes I believe this is possible.
I'm still working on this one!
Thanks @Androg.
This is beautiful @GBS. I'm glad he's found someone he really loves.
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