Vomiting thoughts-Journey to Healing?

[Blondie]

Hi @Sammyjo,

One of the best things going on in our relationship is that when my husband travels he tells me he can't stop thinking about me, "it's like when we were first dating".

Right on for you, this is good. Getting off of porn will do that to you.

This has me thinking about dopamine. I would guess from what he said that I am now his dopamine hit (that's a good thing). BUT...thinking about the science behind P addiction, wouldn't this mean that eventually I won't give him a big enough dopamine hit? (Not a good thing) Feels like walking a tightrope.

This has not been the case with me. I know what you're saying, but the reality of the matter is it's just not the same thing. From what I understand, although I'm not a neuroscientist or anything, there's nothing wrong per se with dopamine, it's a completely normal chemical that we all need; and in a normal healthy person, it's a totally natural thing that will go up and down and fluctuate throughout your daily life. Nothing wrong with that. However, the problem with porn addicts is that the highs from porn are so unnaturally high, that the addict starts to feel nothing below a certain threshold, and thus, a new normal is created. This new normal brings such excitement to the viewer, that no real beautiful woman such as yourself could ever equal, and quite frankly, probably ten real naked woman in the same room with him could ever equal!

I feel bad saying this to you, and I felt like shit explaining this to my Lady as well, but to put it bluntly, there's no way you could ever compete with porn, thus, there's no way you could ever naturally get his dopamine levels to rise that high - and that's a good thing! Because with all those extreme highs comes with it, all those extreme lows, and all of it is unnatural and unhealthy. It has nothing to do with you not being beautiful enough, or sexy enough, or young enough, because, no matter what age or level of beauty nature might have provided any woman with, no one could ever compete with the utter variety that porn offers, not even a supermodel!

Porn is crack cocaine, but it's actually worse, because, unlike cocaine or alcohol, porn taps into something that is innate in us, our very sexuality. Us men love women, we love variety, we love sex, and quite frankly, for many men (most men?) those things are not easy to get (sadly even in many marriages), thus, porn is your worst enemy, offering you the world, while silently stabbing you in the back. Death by a thousand mouse clicks.

Needless to say, if your man is saying you're his dopamine fix, that means he's actually living in the real world again, the very world you inhabit, which I think is a great thing indeed.

And speaking of beautiful, thanks for this.

I DON'T want or need to hurt him back. I don't want to hurt for him, but I do (this is part of my core). I do need to be sure he won't hurt me again.

When I read that I really thought you were quite the woman, and it made me believe for a moment in humanity again - I have a dark soul . To be able to hold on to your grace and humanity, while still being so hurt and disgusted by this crap, is a testament to you and your quality as a woman. I really mean that.

I wish the best for you and your husband.

 

[Sammyjo]

When I read that I really thought you were quite the woman, and it made me believe for a moment in humanity again

Well so much for that. I have been resisting therapy, but will be going to counseling. We had a bad fight last night and I got very violent with him. I had that tantrum a couple weeks ago where I was throwing stuff. Not good. I am mortified with how I acted last night.

 

[ImBroken]

@Sammyjo - as always - you make me think of things that do not come naturally to me - I appreciate every step of your story that you have shared - it is ominous though to think you are “still going through it” at 7 months- but I get it. I heal wounds for a living and can’t even fathom a 7 month healing process where the infection is still active…and the patient is alive…LOL. And YES - you are all correct about the male/male thing being the same LOVE - what I was referring to was we FOUGHT TOGETHER for so many years to have the legal Right to marry…and when we did - we took vows - I guess I made them more special to me because at that point and time - I was really just like everyone else - same rights - same legal position - same standing in society - to be honest, I was resolved to never have that right in my lifetime. AND for all that is holy - I never saw myself getting divorced - I don’t want to be “divorced” - but I am left with few choices. I don’t think ANY of us would ever choose to be in this position…and it just sucks - this is a whole new level of pain and betrayal for me. With respect to your dopamine question - it is a great one - and in theory a resistance will build again and the mind might look for another source. There are some great reputable inhibitors - but I don’t know how people feel about pharmacology. I’m sure I would be in jail if I wasn’t on my antidepressant - I’m sure my spouse would have been pronounced dead on D Day. - I’m still working through the “There has got to be more to the story - more nasty little secrets - more depraved depth to his addiction” - just not up for it this weekend. AND the ever present feeling of a one-night stand, revenge cheat is stronger than ever…might just go through it to get it out of my system if/when the opportunity arises. I’m even prepared for it to be the most unfulfilling experience of my life…I just need to know. @Jlied - Thank you for the offer. I know its all fresh and new to me - I am on a constant search for THE WHY of it all - right now - he can’t tell me.

 

[Jlied]

Well so much for that. I have been resisting therapy, but will be going to counseling. We had a bad fight last night and I got very violent with him. I had that tantrum a couple weeks ago where I was throwing stuff. Not good. I am mortified with how I acted last night.

I’m so sorry to hear about that @Sammyjo i was hoping to hear about a good evening that created positive feelings. I hope you’re feeling better.

 

[Jlied]

@Sammyjo - as always - you make me think of things that do not come naturally to me - I appreciate every step of your story that you have shared - it is ominous though to think you are “still going through it” at 7 months- but I get it. I heal wounds for a living and can’t even fathom a 7 month healing process where the infection is still active…and the patient is alive…LOL. And YES - you are all correct about the male/male thing being the same LOVE - what I was referring to was we FOUGHT TOGETHER for so many years to have the legal Right to marry…and when we did - we took vows - I guess I made them more special to me because at that point and time - I was really just like everyone else - same rights - same legal position - same standing in society - to be honest, I was resolved to never have that right in my lifetime. AND for all that is holy - I never saw myself getting divorced - I don’t want to be “divorced” - but I am left with few choices. I don’t think ANY of us would ever choose to be in this position…and it just sucks - this is a whole new level of pain and betrayal for me. With respect to your dopamine question - it is a great one - and in theory a resistance will build again and the mind might look for another source. There are some great reputable inhibitors - but I don’t know how people feel about pharmacology. I’m sure I would be in jail if I wasn’t on my antidepressant - I’m sure my spouse would have been pronounced dead on D Day. - I’m still working through the “There has got to be more to the story - more nasty little secrets - more depraved depth to his addiction” - just not up for it this weekend. AND the ever present feeling of a one-night stand, revenge cheat is stronger than ever…might just go through it to get it out of my system if/when the opportunity arises. I’m even prepared for it to be the most unfulfilling experience of my life…I just need to know. @Jlied - Thank you for the offer. I know its all fresh and new to me - I am on a constant search for THE WHY of it all - right now - he can’t tell me.

I am on a constant search for THE WHY of it all - right now - he can’t tell me…….. you may not like to hear this but there isn’t always a reason as to why. Sometimes it just happens. The same with alcoholics or drug addicts, they may not be medicating any type of pain, sometimes they get hooked after casually using. It doesn’t matter so much the WHY as it does ending the behavior. He can always work in therapy later but the biggest thing for him ending that behavior I think should be first on his list.

AND the ever present feeling of a one-night stand, revenge cheat is stronger than ever…might just go through it to get it out of my system if/when the opportunity arises. I’m even prepared for it to be the most unfulfilling experience of my life……. Maybe I have no place to say this as the person who consumed and created chaos in my own marriage but I would advise against this. Right now you are hurt and your angry and any other emotion that goes along with them, but you doing that makes you no better, if your married it’s still cheating. If there is a 1% chance you two stay together doing that would all but end it. Is it worth doing for the realization that you’ll be unfulfilled? Take the high road, if you two end up separating you can walk out with your head high and know you took the high road. Just my two cents.

 

[Gracie]

@Jlied we know we cannot compete with porn. It is abundantly clear when we discover the use and realize how long exactly that we could not compete. I don’ Know that bold letters really make it that much clearer. And of course we want to know why. In the SO mind, we thought our partner was our one and only. Yep we believed the happily ever after fairy tale of our soulmate. We shared our secrets, our soul to our husband. I don’t know about the others here but I shared my soft underbelly with my husband. My body insecurities, my sexual insecurities. And though he may have “drifted” he chose every time he watched. He chose every time he ignored me sexually. He hid what he did. He did this with purpose. And yes I can remember that pain like it was yesterday. Even though it has been many years since discovery. He is the only one I truly shared myself with. And now? I am careful what I share. I hold a little back. I really do not know if he was totally truthful. But to gut a marriage relationship of many years with this...there is a why somewhere. And why do we want to know? Because it was the worst surprise ever. We did not know there was a double person in our relationship. We thought however stupid it was that our spouse would not throw us aside and choose fucking pictures over us. My husband and I have worked through this but a second time and I am out the door.

 

[Jlied]

Hi @Gracie I hope I’m not coming across like m justifying any of our behavior because there isn’t a justification for betraying the ones we have taken an oath with to love and protect. And you are correct, there is no competing with that beast, for anyone. A person can view more naked people in one day than a community could in a life time prior to internet porn. When I say time will help to heal I didn’t mean that the memory goes away. It’s been about 3 years for us now and my wife can still tell me that it still feels like yesterday at times. It may not be on fathers forefront of her mind like it was but the feelings and emotions can still bubble up and feel just as raw.

we did choose every time we viewed the content. We chose to masturbate every time over spending that time with our spouse. It’s messed up. For me as I’ve said before I knew what I was doing was going to have negative effects. I knew every time that it was wrong for me to do it. But I was hooked, I was not in control of my behaviors or emotions. The harder it tried to avoid doing that the harder the pull was until it was all I could think about. Maybe that all sounds like bullshit but it’s the best way I can describe it.

I understand there is always that need to want to know, but for me, I can’t tell you that I started looking at it as a kid, I didn’t understand it’s registering effects. By the time I was in a relationship and married it was just a part of my life. I wasn’t running from any pain or feelings that I can think of. I don’t have a good reason for why I did it other than curiosity at a young age, I associated the good feelings it gave my body with it and it became a source of enjoyment. Rather than picking up a hobby or learning a new skill I chose to self indulge.

I thank you for sharing your views and feelings, posts like this are great motivation for me to no go back to that place. It reminds me being present with my family is more rewarding than a couple of hours of self gratification followed by the crash and self loathing.

 

[ImBroken]

@Gracie - Once again - your written words, succinctly summed up my current state of being. As a person in recovery myself - I know there ALWAYS is a WHY. I do not feel wrong in asking what that Why is. I wish I didn’t have to - and I know that when the why is discovered - it will probably be another blow to my personal self worth…not something I am looking to add right now. There are SO FEW resources available for the SO…and please don’t misinterpret this is “ohhhhh poor us…nothing for the SOs except this forum….”
Aside from the gravity of the betrayal, the shattering of trust, the sheer disgust of the actions he took…viewing and writing/creating P - I feel totally unprepared to sometimes even respond to the addiction - and for that I am angry. This was such a long held secret and “my foes” are fantasies - non-tangible thoughts and emotions. It is a total mind fuck for me 24/7. What I dread most - is the time investment it will take on both parts - and I am just at the starting line. Maybe its because of my physical age - but I am a firm believer that LIFE IS FOR THE LIVING - and right now, it feels like I am anything but, living. As a 32+ year recovering addict and alcoholic - I also know that you cannot serve two masters during recovery. For now I am telling/letting my husband to focus on his recovery - put all his energies there. But my belief (today) is that he will never understand the extent of what he did to me through this addiction…and had he not been “caught” - he would still be doing it today. Its all so much - I have to pick and choose my times now to mentally battle the unknown…but I know an object in motion will stay in motion so I am trying to go through the motions.
@Jlied - please do not take this as a personal hit - but this forum is a place where I get to be angry at my husband - I just believe there is NO spouse or significant other who can come close to understanding the pain, the damage, the insecurity, the anguish that some of us go through. I read the other forums of the addicted. I’m so new into the process - I’m just so raw with emotion…maybe things will change in 6 months, a year, 5 years - but what will not change is that it happened. I didn’t ask for this. Had I known of this existence I would not have entered the contract. P is not my enemy….my SO is the person who chose P over us…over me…over everything. And there is no breathalyzer or blood test for whether he is abusing again…all I have is his word for now…I want to believe his words…but the track record of D day and the fallout have not left me with a good insurance policy. Right now I think I am numb - Im just in taking all of your words and your experiences - its excellent fodder for when and how I move MY life forward. Thanks to all of you friends.

 

[Jlied]

@ImBroken i don’t take any offense to what you say and I hope that I have not offended you by anything I have said. You are absolutely correct in saying that no one can know the pain as the hurt partner feels when they are blind sighted like you have been. We, the abusers have no ability to prove we are not relapsing like those of other kinds of addiction, you’re right about that. All we have is our word which let’s face it, doesn’t carry any weight at this point. That’s why I think becoming clean has to be done for yourself firstly and your spouse secondly. We can’t expect you to trust us and we can’t be offended when you don’t. Getting clean for ourselves makes it easier to persevere when we get challenged not just by P but by the doubt and anger we will receive from our spouse. For me I started getting better for my wife and kids, but I had to make it more for me as I realized I cannot lean on my wife for all the support I need. This isn’t her problem to fix.

i just want to say that my words are coming from my experience, I can’t say this is true of everyone nor is there a single road map that applies to everyone else. i just want to be as helpful to others as I’ve benefited from the help of other people when I first went through this. If at any point I over step any boundaries I apologize. I’m just trying to offer up perspective from my point of view.

this is a great community and I think the fact that people struggling with addiction can intermingle with those who have been hurt by it is powerful. It’s community, it’s fellowship, and I think with everyone sharing their testimony we all benefit.

 

[Sammyjo]

I didn't feel like writing much the other morning, but this is what happened. ..I feel the need to be brutally honest.

A little background. Before finding out the first time about his P use, I knew something wasn't right for a couple years. There were a LOT of signs, I won't (probably can't even remember all of them), be he went from a very loving husband to a cold fish over night. The worst was that he went from having sex with me right before leaving on a trip and again the second he got home to not being able to get it up if he was facing me (literally overnight). Then ED became a problem no matter what the position. For 2 years I thought he was cheating, I asked he denied. Eventually it turned into him telling me that I had a self esteem problem and I needed help (which I got).

During that time there were many nights where if I had just a little too much to drink a switch would flip and I would go from happy buzz to an interrogator. He eventually shared with me 1 certain person that he was viewing. He knew EVERYTHING about her life - more than he knew about me. I cried and screamed at him, he said if he knew it would hurt me that bad he never would have done it. I would continue to badger him occasionally on nights I had too much to drink. Over time less and less. But there was always some ED issues. Fast forward 10 or so years to this April. I was very calm when I approached him after finding out. There have been tears and badgering questions but no yelling and screaming. But when I have too much to drink (this is like once a weekend now, so probably another issue I need to deal with) I can't let anything go and I get mean.

This weekend I noticed he averts some of my questions. This was what I couldn't let go. Long story short when we got home my switch had flipped. I don't actually recall much of what I said to him, but I was very mean. He was sharing how worn out he feels and I basically said "oh boo hoo, poor you" and went back to badgering. He started packing a bag, not sure what I said about him packing but he repeated called me the C word (we have never been name callers) and then I went after him physically. I started throwing him around and hitting him. He didn't fight back in the least. I am tiny and he is almost twice my weight in muscle, and I was pushing and tossing him around like it was nothing. He covered his face and I hit him repeatedly. I was LITERALLY out of my mind. I don't know if he stopped me or if I stopped. Luckily I didn't cause any physical damage other than an hole in his brand new sweatshirt. He left and went to a hotel.

I am blown away - he came back in the morning and we talked. He actually did most of the talking. He thinks this all means I hate him. I think it's because I want to hurt him back but won't cheat on him. Somehow he was able to push right past this and by the end of the day was loving me like nothing happened. Regardless, it's clear I have issues I need to deal with. I don't like this person I am when the switch flips, she scares me. Obviously I can't have a fun buzz night anymore so drinking needs to go, but I need to figure out why I can't let things go.

I left a few messages for therapists over the weekend, but it sure seems as though the therapists around here who are any good are not accepting new patients. Hopefully I can find a decent one.

 

[Jlied]

Hello @Sammyjo I’m sure that was really difficult write and thank you for sharing that with us. Of course it’s never good to lay hands on each other but I’m sure all of your hurt, your rage, your betrayal that you’ve been suppressing for years couldn’t be held back any longer. I would guess you can’t let things go because you feel like either haven’t gotten the answers you need or because of the trauma you are stuck replaying those events out over and over in your head. I still go through this with my wife from time to time, especially if something happens that triggers and uncomfortable response. I’m sure you keep asking him questions as a way to reassure yourself he is still giving you the same consistent answers that don’t make you feel like his story is changing.

I’m glad to hear you’ve identified drinking as a problem for the time being and are putting a hold on it while you seek help for yourself. Just know you aren’t alone as you have this community to fall back on for support.

 

[Gracie]

Jlied I owe you an apology. I had pointed out to me that Blondie used all caps. I am so sorry.

 

[Jlied]

Jlied I owe you an apology. I had pointed out to me that Blondie used all caps. I am so sorry.

I’m not sure I follow, I’m don’t recall seeing a post directed towards me in all caps.

 

[ImBroken]

Oh @Sammyjo - I wish I could give you a hug - here comes a cyber one. I want you to be very careful in owning much of this. This betrayal was done to us. Right now, I personally think my betrayal is beyond repair. There are no f’ing rule books on this…no guidelines…we as SOs get crap in the way of support (beyond this group) - I have searched and searched - you did what you felt you had to do. Dealing with all of this is total bullshit - we never signed up for it…in my opinion cancer would be easier to deal with. Our opponent is a fantasy, a non-reality and unattainable thing…and they consumed it over and over and over and over and there is no guarantee they will not do it again. I give you a hell of a lot of credit for not keeping the shit in - sorry it got physical - but I have envisioned many horrible ways my spouse could be hurt. Take it easy on yourself. Also - there are some great talk/videoconference therapists - I found one who specializes in the male/male relationship. Again, I am a newbie - but I stand by my statement - My SO will NEVER have an inkling of the damage HE and P have done to me. We got into it tonight pretty bad as well - he had the balls to ask me if I was starting a relationship with a friend of mine…a friend who knows about our situation and has comforted me through laughter and phone calls. How dare he f’ing ask anything of me. You are jealous or threatened by what I may be doing…well fuck you. I don’t do tit for tat - and how dare you even ask…this coming from someone who if he wasn’t caught would still be consuming porn, writing porn and jerking off 5x a day.
Bottom line we all have to be selfish and take care of ourselves….the P addiction is really the worst I have come face to face with…

 

[Sammyjo]

@ImBroken Thank you for the tip on the video conference therapists...I'll have to do further research as it feels a bit sketchy to me but I will definitely spend time on it today as I've still not had any return calls from therapists.

There are no f’ing rule books on this…no guidelines…we as SOs get crap in the way of support (beyond this group) - I have searched and searched - you did what you felt you had to do

You're right, there is very little help. But I didn't do what I felt I had to do, and I don't know where it came from. I am (apparently I now have to say "was") never a violent person, not even a little bit, and very kind. I don't understand where this came from and it scares the crap out of me. I don't want to be this person. I can not begin to tell you the disdain I feel for myself right now. It also makes me wonder if this is how my husband feels every time I bring up his P issue and what it did to me.

It was said on another thread that both partners deserve empathy. The reality is that up until I became unhinged I would have quietly disagreed with this. I felt like "He chose this, not me, HE didn't give one crap about me in the choices he made, He should feel like crap" etc. I had no empathy for him and, I didn't feel he deserved any, he brought this on himself. When I went after him the other night it was not a choice (that's the scary part). It was literally as though a stranger had taken control of my actions. (Not making excuses, simply explaining). I now wonder if P addiction is something like that...like it becomes "not a choice", out of control. Anyway, ironically, now that I have this wonderful newfound disgust for myself I seem to have empathy for the pain my husband must be going through.

It's a very strange place to be in, an ugly place not of my choosing and doing things I never would've thought I was capable of.

One last thing. There is some commentary on another thread about my actions. I didn't have to share this with the world, I could've kept it to myself and looked like the perfect lady. I chose to put this nasty reality out there because it just MIGHT help another SO. Yes there are warriors here working hard, and I did not mean to take away from that or diminish it in any way. I had a ridiculously horrible moment, I am not excusing it and certainly not saying it was ok. I am simply sharing it to stay "real".

(Bottom line for any SO's reading)- In keeping it real, I wish I had spoken more of the harsh things to my husband that crossed my mind. I kept a LOT in because they were not kind words and I was trying to remain the kind person I have always been. I showed him the hurt, but refrained from expressing the anger, or more truthfully, convinced myself the anger was actually hurt and expressed it in that manner. I can only believe that my violent outburst was all that I held in finally came to a head (again, not an excuse). And this is where therapy will hopefully help - show me how to express my anger in a productive way, because apparently I am not used to having to express it.

 

[Jlied]

@Sammyjo and @ImBroken I don’t know if it’s taboo in here to reference another podcast, however, sex, lies, and addiction with Dr. Rob references resources for spouses going through betrayal trauma, I believe he has a website as well where they make it a bit more convenient to find that information. I used to listen to him a lot and enjoyed his content.

 

[Gracie]

@Sammyjo I am glad you share your feelings and trials here. If people would go back to 2014 and read the posts of. SOs they would see that the pain we feel is quite normal. I remember the feelings I first had and I thought I was going crazy. I literally became suicidal. What kept me going? My grand kids. I had a violent childhood and a violent first marriage. So I too held my anger in. Because of my work, I did not do name calling personal attacks. I tried to figure it out. Where did I fail? What did I do or not do? How big of a hit could my self esteem take? We as wives hear: Women whose husbands watch porn do things wrong in the bedroom. His eyes won’t wander if you look a certain way or weigh a certain weight. Society makes it our fault. Look at all the makeup . How many kinds of mascara are there? Do men even notice our eyelashes? And then the other side as we know as SOs looking for help is well all men look at porn it’s no big deal only pictures don’t get your panties in a wad. That is so much shit. My husband’s personality was so different. Even our sons started asking what was wrong. We had a partner that made a decision about our intimate sex life without a conversation with us. We did not know. And now when they have ED is it because they miss the porn? Or for those of us that are older is it age? We can’t know. All we can do is work through the best we can. And don’t ever think we have to be somewhat understanding because “it is only pictures not pussy”. I asked how deep is your love for me if all it took for you to sideline our marriage and sex life was anyone that was naked? He would watch on our tv in our bedroom and one night during a nightmare I was talking and I said there are too many people in this room. He told me about it the next day. It never occurred to him that he let them in our bedroom. Our place.

 

[Sammyjo]

He would watch on our tv in our bedroom and one night during a nightmare I was talking and I said there are too many people in this room. He told me about it the next day. It never occurred to him that he let them in our bedroom. Our place.

Wow! That really sums it up!

I was doing a lot of reading about anger and aggression the last couple days, I read a statistic that something like only 9% of angry interactions turn violent. Really puts me in a small, ugly category. What I found interesting (not justifying anything, just found it interesting) was that I spoke privately with a few online friends who've had similar situations, 3 of the 4 admitted to becoming violent with their spouse on a least 1 occasion post trauma. What this tells me is that the topic needs more visibility and investigating.

Think about that for a minute...statistical data states only 9% of angry interactions end in violence yet I found 3 of 4 women who have been through a similar situation also became violent - they only shared it after I opened up.

Perhaps it's because the felt as ashamed as I do about it, doesn't matter, sure sounds like that number is higher than 9% and it certainly needs to be addressed.

Additionally in my searching I could find no articles addressing a sudden change like I experienced. It's all about repeated behaviors.

I did find some good content on escalation of anger which at least helps me understand what might have happened. I will post that later when I've got a bit more time.

Thank you @Jlied and @Gracie for the tips on Dr. Rob and Kevin Skinner. I will check it out.

 

[Blondie]

Those are some crazy statistics @Sammyjo, really interesting and sad.

Thanks for sharing those with us, and also your story about the other night with you and your husband. It's good for us to see what this nonsense can do to our partners emotionally, even if it's hard to read sometimes.

Best to you.

 

[GBS]

Just wanted to say @Sammyjo that I read all the above. Sorry for your pain. Move forwards with your husband beside you. Don’t always look back on mistakes. We addicts can’t go back. We wish we could. Healing is an onwards exercise.

my very best wishes to you and your husband.