Moving Forward

[Blondie]

Congrats, @PrometheusUnbound.

Happy to be feeling that rather than ashamed and trapped that's for sure!

This is great.

 

[PrometheusUnbound]

@Blondie Thanks for the support! It's inspiring.

 

[PrometheusUnbound]

No PMO Day 32; no MO day 13; no SUBS day 4

Feeling as strong as I have in a while.

I've started reading The Freedom Model for Addictions. I'm not sure I agree with everything it's arguing but I am finding it compelling (and effective thus far) reading. It is helping me reflect on things more than I have been for some time, but I'm only part of the way through and am personally quite muddled about things in general right now. I stopped identifying as an addict some time ago, as I wasn't finding that helpful. At some point I stopped referring to it internally as having an addiction but I have found it useful to use the language of addiction and recovery in taking things seriously, and also removal of some of the shame of it - maybe I've been using it metaphorically. I have been referring to 'relapses' and other concepts associated with recovery, but I think this is for lack of better terms. I do think pathologising has helped me build enough drama to start making changes. But I view it like the Buddhist parable of the boat. When it stops being useful, I hope to leave it behind and not carry the boat with me inland. I do like the idea so far that one's mindset can give or remove the power that compulsive habits can have over you. I don't agree that free will is absolute, and that you either have it or you don't. Anyways check out @Blondie 's thoughts and writings for a structured and in-depth discussion of its ideas.

 

[GBS]

Hey Prommers, you’re doing well.

I read all the stuff @Blondie wrote on The Freedom Model for Addictions. I am glad you’re enjoying it too. I have also dipped into it, just not read it cover to cover. I love the idea of basically finding the calmness to move from “being addicted” to a place of normal respect for the thing one was (past tense) addicted to. Don’t see it as the enemy or battle lines are drawn forever.

The simple thing for me is I just don’t quite trust myself with porn, and anyway (and very clearly) it’s a relationship damager. So my view is I have permission (not sure who from) to say I was an addict, but I am not now. I like that…..just not 100% certain I believe myself. Hey ho.

 

[Blondie]

@PrometheusUnbound, and @GBS, it looks like we got ourselves a fucking book club. What's next, War and Peace?

But I view it like the Buddhist parable of the boat. When it stops being useful, I hope to leave it behind and not carry the boat with me inland.

This is beautiful. I love it. Yes, I still count "days" too. Why? because it helps me at the moment. I think it's always smart to pick and choose whatever works.

I love the idea of basically finding the calmness to move from “being addicted” to a place of normal respect for the thing one was (past tense) addicted to. Don’t see it as the enemy or battle lines are drawn forever.

I love this, too. There's a real peace knowing deep down inside, that I'm free and totally normal like everyone else. Which means I'm still fucked up, but just in normal ways.

All three of us mention using "recovery terms" because it feels like they compel us forward, thus giving us "motivation" for real change, even if one day we drop them. I know the book would say this is a "fear driven mindset." I think for myself it is, because, counting days for me always has given me motivation, what is more, I use the fear of the last "relapse," or the fear of "going back to cams and hurting my Lady" as momentum to drive me to "to the land of no porn." None of these things are bad in of themselves, but I do wonder to what extent this means I'm still stuck in the mentality of warfare and fear, for a lack of a better word.

Is this good or bad?

Have I made this decision fearfully or rationally?

Would it be better to loose the fear and think of it like any other decision? Like quitting Coke in my example.

Is the fear making me more sustainable to relapse, or is it reining me in?

I have no answers here, just thinking out loud.

I love the dialogue.

 

[PrometheusUnbound]

No PMO Day 35; no MO day 16; no SUBS day 7

@GBS Cheers Gibbers I am actually doing pretty well. I've been pretty busy with work, but also getting back on track. I did a fast today because I wanted to set myself a goal and do it. I've also been consuming an unhealthy amount of junk food and want to break out of the cycle. Like you, I can't trust myself with porn (although apparently I have been for a good part of this year!), but I love your change in identity.

@Blondie I think these are all the pertinent questions. I think the freedom model is maybe simple rather than 'easy' per se in that it still takes a lot to change your mindset. Maybe the journey to finding what works for you is as important as actually finding what works for you. And with regards to fear, I found when I started here especially I was so scared of relapsing (with good reason) that even though my streaks were getting longer, I think I was setting myself up to fail. I think that what the freedom method offers is permission not to panic, and I am finding that liberating currently.

And yes, I love that we're in a book club!! Funnily enough I think on the day you posted I was thinking about whether I would read War and Peace in this lifetime. My brother forced his way through and I've always respected him for that.

 

[Blondie]

I think the freedom model is maybe simple rather than 'easy' per se in that it still takes a lot to change your mindset.

I love this. Exactly. Just because it's simple doesn't mean it's easy. We do have to put in the work, but for me, this work doesn't feel so "heavy," but rather, quite rewarding and I can see peace already.

Maybe the journey to finding what works for you is as important as actually finding what works for you.

Nicely said!

And with regards to fear, I found when I started here especially I was so scared of relapsing (with good reason) that even though my streaks were getting longer, I think I was setting myself up to fail.

Absolutely. I sure know I was setting myself up to fail. But then again, this whole idea of "failure" and "relapsing" comes from all this stuff that we're talking about. At least speaking for myself, if I hadn't had any of these ideas of a "diseased mind" or a brain "hooked on porn" it's hard to imagine I would have gone down the road that I've just come from. But who knows. However, now I know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

I think that what the freedom method offers is permission not to panic, and I am finding that liberating currently.

Yes! I love the not panicking part of this. Because then you can face it in a rational way, with no fear in your heart. Asking yourself "Why do I still prefer this habit sometimes? What false belief do I have that makes me go to it in certain moments? These are the questions that can bring real change to your life, without the baggage of shame and the fear of a "lifer." No thanks.

And yes, I love that we're in a book club!! Funnily enough I think on the day you posted I was thinking about whether I would read War and Peace in this lifetime. My brother forced his way through and I've always respected him for that.

This just made my weekend.

Best

 

[PrometheusUnbound]

No PMO Day 37; no MO day 18; no SUBS day 9

A big reason I quit drinking was that the hangovers started to far outweigh the pleasure I was getting. I also saw that I was drinking to get through things I didn't really want to do. And I was also dealing with the consequences of decisions that I perceived alcohol as giving me license to make. So the cost of it was clearly higher than the reward; and when that sunk in I was able to quit. Porn has been more difficult - partly because it has been there longer, and also because it's on tap everywhere; but also perhaps because the shame has made it very difficult to honestly evaluate the pleasure/positives I thought I was getting out of it. And those were many, and many horrible. These days I spend more time feeling miserable about porn than I do using it. The effect it has on others is also weighing on me more than it used to. And I have used it as an excuse to justify things I would 'normally' view as reprehensible. Slowly but surely the idea that the downsides outweigh the upsides is sinking in.

 

[PrometheusUnbound]

No PMO Day 38; no MO day 19; no SUBS day 10

Wishing everyone the focus they need to not look at porn and achieve their goals this week.

 

[Blondie]

Same to you, @PrometheusUnbound.

 

[PrometheusUnbound]

No PMO Day 39; no MO day 20; no SUBS day 11

We had to take our son to the hospital in the middle of the night because of an asthma attack. He is ok now thankfully. Didn't sleep well. Decided it was a good idea to binge on Reddit and YouTube for hours despite having a 12 hour work day today. Groggy and rueful! At one point considered MO as a salve. Decided to extend my goal to one month instead. Going to think more about why I do the late-night before heavy work days; it seems to be a pretty ingrained behaviour at this point. Grateful I don't have that extra layer of shame and that my family is well.

 

[Blondie]

Going to think more about why I do the late-night before heavy work days; it seems to be a pretty ingrained behaviour at this point.

Hey, @PrometheusUnbound. sorry to hear about your son.

When I've found myself doing things like this, that is, things that are self-sabotaging, it's often some kind of a distraction. Whether it be porn (which is what I would have done before I changed habits) or an innocent behavior like you mentioned, there's always some "idea" we've attached to it, that says "when I do XZY I feel better." Or maybe after sometime of doing it weekly (a repeated behavior), we say to ourselves "I NEED to do XYZ to feel better." Either way, these things obviously don't "fix" anything, it's just something we've given them "power" to fix. I know for myself, a few days ago, I was feeling anxious about work, but instead of doing what I often do in that moment, I was proactive and worked on a few projects for an hour. After this hour, I didn't feel any "need" to wander aimlessly on the internet like I do sometimes. I relaxed for a few, then fell right to sleep.

Maybe this helps, maybe this doesn't, but there you go. But I think you're right on the money asking the "Why?"

Keep killing it.

 

[PrometheusUnbound]

Hey, @PrometheusUnbound. sorry to hear about your son.

When I've found myself doing things like this, that is, things that are self-sabotaging, it's often some kind of a distraction. Whether it be porn (which is what I would have done before I changed habits) or an innocent behavior like you mentioned, there's always some "idea" we've attached to it, that says "when I do XZY I feel better." Or maybe after sometime of doing it weekly (a repeated behavior), we say to ourselves "I NEED to do XYZ to feel better." Either way, these things obviously don't "fix" anything, it's just something we've given them "power" to fix. I know for myself, a few days ago, I was feeling anxious about work, but instead of doing what I often do in that moment, I was proactive and worked on a few projects for an hour. After this hour, I didn't feel any "need" to wander aimlessly on the internet like I do sometimes. I relaxed for a few, then fell right to sleep.

Maybe this helps, maybe this doesn't, but there you go. But I think you're right on the money asking the "Why?"

Keep killing it.

Thanks @Blondie He is a lot better now. Was just a timely reminder that not everything is going to be rainbows. Nice work on bucking the trend in that moment. I hear the phrase "the way out is through" or "in" a lot and I guess that is an example of it. That facing something takes away a lot of the power of it. I was talking about phone use with a friend the other day and he was saying that he uses it before sleeping for hours and that it doesn't even make him feel happy. And I felt the book talking out of my mouth..."but you think that it will make you happy, and that's why you choose to do it". And for a second the answer was so obvious. And then I remembered I was in the same boat and it hadn't seemed so simple when I was experiencing it. So yes, I have attached the idea that I will feel better to that behaviour. I think that is where I need to start.

Thanks mate.

 

[PrometheusUnbound]

No PMO Day 41; no MO day 23; no SUBS day 13

Using some of the perspectives in the book has left me feeling a but lighter recently. I recommended it to a friend who has been struggling with alcohol, especially during a separation from his wife. He hasn't drunk for a week now and is enjoying it a lot. I reached my 3 week goal of no MO. Not sure if I will extend it or not right now. Not MOing has drastically reduced the amount of time I spend in sexual fantasy, which is making things easier in general, despite having a fair few urges to do it.

I hope everyone has a great weekend.

 

[GBS]

So glad you’re back on the road Prommers. Coming on here regularly is like my hard check in. I know I could probably stop journaling but somehow the daily discipline keeps me going and provides another layer to my recovery. So I am thrilled you’re back on here as regularly as you are.

As for the no MO streak, you know it’s my mantra. Keep going if you can. See if you can do 30 days. All best wishes to you.

 

[Blondie]

Using some of the perspectives in the book has left me feeling a but lighter recently. I recommended it to a friend who has been struggling with alcohol, especially during a separation from his wife. He hasn't drunk for a week now and is enjoying it a lot.

Hey, @PrometheusUnbound, this is great to hear. Is there any particular perspective that has helped you recently? I would love to hear it. I know for myself, de mythologizing what porn "does for me" and my beliefs around it, has been a real eye opener. I'll be writing more about this when I get the time. Also thrilled to hear about this with your friend.

 

[PrometheusUnbound]

So glad you’re back on the road Prommers. Coming on here regularly is like my hard check in. I know I could probably stop journaling but somehow the daily discipline keeps me going and provides another layer to my recovery. So I am thrilled you’re back on here as regularly as you are.

As for the no MO streak, you know it’s my mantra. Keep going if you can. See if you can do 30 days. All best wishes to you.

Thanks for the little push Gibbers. I did decide to break the streak at 24. Mainly underwhelming and not what I was somehow building it up to be. 30 is my next goal now. For me in my daily life, journaling in general keeps me grounded, aware of where I am, and more focused on what I need to be doing so I am a firm believer in it.

Hope you have a great week.

 

[PrometheusUnbound]

Hey, @PrometheusUnbound, this is great to hear. Is there any particular perspective that has helped you recently? I would love to hear it. I know for myself, de mythologizing what porn "does for me" and my beliefs around it, has been a real eye opener. I'll be writing more about this when I get the time. Also thrilled to hear about this with your friend.

Thanks @Blondie My friend, who is enjoying the book, and yesterday morning sent me a picture of day 9 crossed off on his calendar, said what is good for him is that it presents a clear thesis at the beginning and then proceeds to reiterate that main point over and over in various ways and he feels it starting to stick. He had been in the circle of drinking to drown out stress and then wondering why he did the next day. I think this repetition is what is helping me. I am reading it as a method - and to me it's a little like brainwashing or propaganda but I think that is ok because I essentially agree with the premise.

It's mainly that it's helping take away the power I have given a set of actions. The more I hear that I am not addicted, or that there is no such thing as addiction, the less addicted I feel. The more I consider that I make decisions because I think they will make me happy, the more I can make better decisions about what will make me happier. It's not that I don't personally believe that addiction doesn't exist, but for my situation it seems a powerful mindset to work within. And goddammit, whatever mess there has been in my personal life in the past month, I feel so much better with a porn hangover and wondering who I am. It's that that feels more clear right now - and the book is helping shine a light on that.

The things I don't like about the book are perhaps the same things that I like about it. It seems to present a lot of things as true which aren't necessarily, much in the same way as a lot of the materials that it refutes. Points such as 'free will is an absolute' are perhaps useful for the model but not necessarily helpful beyond it. And when it comes to going into details of examples, and how to do things beyond its philosophy I do find suddenly it gets pretty shaky. I feel like it discounts a lot of neurological science and other things for ideological reasons. So it's not for everyone, whether it's harmful as some have said, I'm not sure. But in the same way as Allen Carr's Easy Way to Give Up Smoking did for me, I am finding it a compelling almost hypnotic tool for changing my attitude.

I think that might have been a bit garbled. I am not exactly clear on all my thoughts right now but I am certainly glad to have found it on your page.

Hope you have a great week.

 

[PrometheusUnbound]

No PMO Day 44; no MO day 1; no SUBS day 16

Almost half way to 90. Had a quick and slightly underwhelming MO yesterday morning after not setting a goal after 21 days. I'm going to do a 30 day break this time. Not using subs is making a lot of the difference at the moment. MO usually serves as an escalation to unhealthy behaviour for me because it's combined with other bad habits. But because I'm being more disciplined in a number of directions I'm not going to do my 3 in 24 hours needing more stimuli each time.

Wishing everyone a great porn-fee week.

 

[Blondie]

Thanks @Blondie My friend, who is enjoying the book, and yesterday morning sent me a picture of day 9 crossed off on his calendar, said what is good for him is that it presents a clear thesis at the beginning and then proceeds to reiterate that main point over and over in various ways and he feels it starting to stick. He had been in the circle of drinking to drown out stress and then wondering why he did the next day.

This makes me so happy. That's great to hear! I do believe the book does repeat its message over and over again, while adding more to it chapter by chapter. As you say, this is both good and bad. Since I've been rereading it, that part of it has shown itself to be true. However, this is also what I need, because this message needs to be pounded into my head. I'm not an addict. Damn that makes me happy.

I think this repetition is what is helping me. I am reading it as a method - and to me it's a little like brainwashing or propaganda but I think that is ok because I essentially agree with the premise.

Absolutely. It's completely like brainwashing or political propaganda. However, I believe that's how it should be, because, quite frankly, in my cynical view of the world, all things are, including humans. I've been listening to their podcast, The Addiction Solution (definitely check it out) and it's clear that the authors have seen some real shit when it comes to AA and the recovery community. That doesn't mean all AAs are that way, but, when you hear their stories, you can see where they're coming from. They were both born into AA because of their families and their families' addictions, and they have seen the worst of it. Thus, because they see (I think rightly) that most of all the recovery community's ideas come from AA, including the multi-billion dollar rehab industry, they rightly believe they have to fight like hell to get their message out. This doesn't mean I agree with everything, but I completely understand where they're coming from. It's going to take a true paradigm shift to change things on a cultural level. Of course, this is what the founder of AA did nearly hundred years ago. He got his message out through "propaganda," no matter if it was scientifically true or not. That's how all things take root, be that political ideas, religion, or even science for that matter.

It's mainly that it's helping take away the power I have given a set of actions. The more I hear that I am not addicted, or that there is no such thing as addiction, the less addicted I feel. The more I consider that I make decisions because I think they will make me happy, the more I can make better decisions about what will make me happier. It's not that I don't personally believe that addiction doesn't exist, but for my situation it seems a powerful mindset to work within. And goddammit, whatever mess there has been in my personal life in the past month, I feel so much better with a porn hangover and wondering who I am. It's that that feels more clear right now - and the book is helping shine a light on that.

That's great to hear. I think our beliefs about these matters mean much more than we'll ever know. I actually don't think I am, or ever was addicted, so maybe we disagree there. However, I totally agree, whatever works and gets us the results we want, is all that matters. To know I'm free. To know I'm not an addict. To know I'm not a sex addict, brings tears to my eyes. A gigantic weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I'm a free man. No matter what my counter says.

The things I don't like about the book are perhaps the same things that I like about it. It seems to present a lot of things as true which aren't necessarily, much in the same way as a lot of the materials that it refutes. Points such as 'free will is an absolute' are perhaps useful for the model but not necessarily helpful beyond it.

I hear you here. I'm not one to buy anything ever without thinking about it for a long time, especially at first glance. And just because I've thought the Your Brain on Porn model had some questionable ideas sometimes, doesn't mean I would buy this idea and philosophy right away either. However, since I've always had some doubts about many of these ideas, when I found this book, which validated many of my own intuitions and thoughts, I immediately had a gut reaction to it. Since I'm such a doubter in general, to find something that resonates with me on a deep level is extremely hard to find, especially with this addiction. You read book after book, and it makes you feel like you can't even trust yourself, or that, your brain is so screwed, you should be highly cautions. It almost feels like gaslighting, though I don't think it's on purpose. However, with this book, I was like, holy shit, I'm not fucking crazy. There are "addiction professionals" out there in the world who think the same way I do, but put it out there way better than I ever have. It was a relief to put it bluntly.

As far as the free will concept goes, I agree, that's an extremely complicated question that no philosopher has ever proved in one way or another. It's obviously a simple version of it. However, that's not a bad thing because, at least for myself, I'm not thinking about the grand view of free will when it comes to deciding if I'm going to look at porn or not. It's a pretty individualized decision that the universe has no say in. That is to say, on a micro level, it works. On a macro level, yeah it probably falls apart. But that doesn't bother me one bit, because, if it works, it fucking works.

I feel like it discounts a lot of neurological science and other things for ideological reasons. So it's not for everyone, whether it's harmful as some have said, I'm not sure. But in the same way as Allen Carr's Easy Way to Give Up Smoking did for me, I am finding it a compelling almost hypnotic tool for changing my attitude.

I'm not sure how far you've read, but I thought it gave a fair view of neurological science when considering the book as a whole. It didn't seem they were knocking the whole thing, but only, questioning parts of the narrative when comparing it to the data of post addicts and some logical fallacies. These facts, or studies, I have never seen before in any neurological study. Of course, as you say, it doesn't mean they're "right" either, however, it does makes you walk away with a more nuanced view of the whole thing.

I think that might have been a bit garbled. I am not exactly clear on all my thoughts right now but I am certainly glad to have found it on your page.

Thank @new reality for this. It was though him I found it.

I'm not much of a religious man these days, but I feel as if I'm Paul from the Bible, and "the scales have been lifted from mine eyes."

Thank you, @new reality!

Best, @PrometheusUnbound.

Let's keep talking about this. It's always fun.