Surprise

[Blue Bird]

Dear Gracie:

Hello. I read and paid attention to all your messages and I just can think that you are brave and a strong person.  I hope all the best for you and your husband on his recuperation.  Thanks for the time in writing all these messages. It is so important to listen a woman's perception of the addiction.

I confess I was very uncomfortable in reading wife's reports because I knew I would feel myself  very selfish and ashamed. I embraced the courage and opened your journal to read.  That was a task for me.

I am 52 years old and have a marriage of 17 years. Two daughters of 14 and 16.  I love my family and I feel I have been betraying my wife the same way you have described in your messages.  I feel very bad about it and want to recover and forget PMO.  My wife has put me against the wall several times for not having sex as much as she expected.  Of course, I always had an answer  and carried on the relationship  in a warm manner..... Not cold, not hot.  She does not know that I am in this forum and doing a reboot.  Since I began rebooting two weeks ago we are  much closer and happier together. I hope to begin soon intimacy with her again. I love her.

Your messages were very precious to me and will help me find the required strengh to stop it forever.

I admire you very much.

Kind regards.

Blue Bird.

 

[Gracie]

Bluebird,  I am glad that what I write helps people.  I try to put my feelings in writing as best I can.  I truly feel that everyone can move through this.  I won't say ge t past, because it changes the relationship.  It changes the way you view your partner.  But this can be done!  I know that it is hard for men to write in the journals of women.  It is often hard for them to journal after a woman had made a comment in the men's journals for some reason. 

I want you to know.  I believe in telling the woman.  It is hard.  It is tearful but then there are two fighting this thing and not just one.  I think that if the goal is for a man to be able to discuss the things that bother him that led to PMO then he needs to be able to talk about it all.  Not all the details about what was watched, just that it was watched.  Then there can be communication.  Communication is what helps it change. 

Got to go to work.  I will write more later.

 

[LTE]

Good points, Gracie.

 

[Jverhoye]

I agree, Gracie.  Communication is key!

 

[Gracie]

I am able to write today.  Sometimes I have the time but the emotion of writing is too much and then sometimes I want to write but have no time. 

As I looked over my last post about communication, I realized that I have had trouble communicating as well.  I could not talk about a lot due to fear of the unknown.  I cannot think of anything I was afraid of, it was just a generalized fear.  I suppose that was due to a combination of fear of rejection, failure, not being whatever I thought I should be or whatever I thought my husband wanted and I could go on and on. 

What made me realize this was a late night conversation because he could tell I was restless, which is a sign my mind is at work and I am having trouble voicing what it is.  Most of the time it is what was the thing that started this whole 15 years long thing in our lives?  This bad choice that he made.  (Trust me, it is a big step for me to be able to say he made a bad choice)  So I looked within me and was able to talk about when I had to choose to be away a lot to take care of a horrible situation involving my mother and how guilty I had felt at the time and still feel over choosing her over being with him and the kids at that time.  (My mother was emotionally very abusive to me)  And how could I choose that over him.  That situation occurred around the time he started pulling away and using porn.  Soooo after 2 years, I can reason things out better.  Because I do trust he is not going to use again.  I just have trouble with I am good enough.  But like I said, baggage.  Parents said not good enough and even though husband did not say it, in my mind he did so by demonstration.

Another good thing.  I was looking through some old things mostly paper stuff and in there was a lingerie catalog from 20 years ago.  I did ask him about it right away.  And because of where it was, I knew there had been no chance of recent or even years ago use.  We talked about it...and I did not go down the rabbit hole of emotion.  I put it in its own trash bag and took it to the can.  I am so proud!

Sorry this is rambling.  But just the thoughts of this morning.

 

[SO Reboot Partner]

I am able to write today.  Sometimes I have the time but the emotion of writing is too much and then sometimes I want to write but have no time. 

As I looked over my last post about communication, I realized that I have had trouble communicating as well.  I could not talk about a lot due to fear of the unknown.  I cannot think of anything I was afraid of, it was just a generalized fear.  I suppose that was due to a combination of fear of rejection, failure, not being whatever I thought I should be or whatever I thought my husband wanted and I could go on and on. 

What made me realize this was a late night conversation because he could tell I was restless, which is a sign my mind is at work and I am having trouble voicing what it is.  Most of the time it is what was the thing that started this whole 15 years long thing in our lives?  This bad choice that he made.  (Trust me, it is a big step for me to be able to say he made a bad choice)  So I looked within me and was able to talk about when I had to choose to be away a lot to take care of a horrible situation involving my mother and how guilty I had felt at the time and still feel over choosing her over being with him and the kids at that time.  (My mother was emotionally very abusive to me)  And how could I choose that over him.  That situation occurred around the time he started pulling away and using porn.  Soooo after 2 years, I can reason things out better.  Because I do trust he is not going to use again.  I just have trouble with I am good enough.  But like I said, baggage.  Parents said not good enough and even though husband did not say it, in my mind he did so by demonstration.

Another good thing.  I was looking through some old things mostly paper stuff and in there was a lingerie catalog from 20 years ago.  I did ask him about it right away.  And because of where it was, I knew there had been no chance of recent or even years ago use.  We talked about it...and I did not go down the rabbit hole of emotion.  I put it in its own trash bag and took it to the can.  I am so proud!

Sorry this is rambling.  But just the thoughts of this morning.

I love it when you journal, Gracie. You have a warmth and style that is genuine and honestly refreshing.

Relationships are like a bag of wire coat hangers, when you need to pull out just one, fifteen others are hooked on. Just the nature of things.

Have a beautiful weekend.

 

[LTE]

I am able to write today.  Sometimes I have the time but the emotion of writing is too much and then sometimes I want to write but have no time. 

As I looked over my last post about communication, I realized that I have had trouble communicating as well.  I could not talk about a lot due to fear of the unknown.  I cannot think of anything I was afraid of, it was just a generalized fear.  I suppose that was due to a combination of fear of rejection, failure, not being whatever I thought I should be or whatever I thought my husband wanted and I could go on and on. 

What made me realize this was a late night conversation because he could tell I was restless, which is a sign my mind is at work and I am having trouble voicing what it is.  Most of the time it is what was the thing that started this whole 15 years long thing in our lives?  This bad choice that he made.  (Trust me, it is a big step for me to be able to say he made a bad choice)  So I looked within me and was able to talk about when I had to choose to be away a lot to take care of a horrible situation involving my mother and how guilty I had felt at the time and still feel over choosing her over being with him and the kids at that time.  (My mother was emotionally very abusive to me)  And how could I choose that over him.  That situation occurred around the time he started pulling away and using porn.  Soooo after 2 years, I can reason things out better.  Because I do trust he is not going to use again.  I just have trouble with I am good enough.  But like I said, baggage.  Parents said not good enough and even though husband did not say it, in my mind he did so by demonstration.

Another good thing.  I was looking through some old things mostly paper stuff and in there was a lingerie catalog from 20 years ago.  I did ask him about it right away.  And because of where it was, I knew there had been no chance of recent or even years ago use.  We talked about it...and I did not go down the rabbit hole of emotion.  I put it in its own trash bag and took it to the can.  I am so proud!

Sorry this is rambling.  But just the thoughts of this morning.

I love it when you journal, Gracie. You have a warmth and style that is genuine and honestly refreshing.

Relationships are like a bag of wire coat hangers, when you need to pull out just one, fifteen others are hooked on. Just the nature of things.

Have a beautiful weekend.

I agree. I want to thank all of the ladies that post here. Hearing from the partners of men that have this problem is very helpful in gaining perspective regarding this problem.

 

[Gracie]

Well I thought I would write more today.  I was thinking of what we went through during that first year.  And the hardest thing was knowing that no matter how bad I hurt, he was the one that could heal me.  In the book, "Love you Hate the Porn", attachment is talked about.  We all have a primary attachment figure in our lives.  When we are young, that is our mother generally.  We look to her to provide love, nourishment, and security.  When she is around, all is well.  As we grow, we then begin to pull away and find another attachment figure.

The attachment figure we have as adults is usually our husband or wife.  We choose someone for a lifetime relationship.  Threis relationship is built on love, trust and commitment to each other.  Somewhat like a three legged stool.  When one of those legs is gone, the attachment is weakened.  For me the trust was gone.  By watching a smorgasboard of women, he chose someone other than me.  It matters not to me whether I was the one all the time is his mind or not.  There is not room for two.  And looking and masturbating effectively removes thoughts of me.  He also chose to hide this for all those years. That broke the trust even more.  So here we are then trying to figure it out.  One of the things I had to say outloud during that time was: "I love you anyway."  This helped. A lot.  As we worked on healing, I realized how big the wound was.  It was unlike anything I had ever experienced.

As you know the mood of the recovering person are all over.  There were times he looked like he loathed me.  I felt ugly, used and stupid during that time. It was like he was someone else.  But I kept working and he did too.  He was the bandaid that could cover my gaping wound.  We had to grow a new attachment.  That involved learning new ways of connecting.  One of the things he said was it was easier to give up the porn because I knew about it.  It gave him incentive to change.  He said that he had thought about it before, but since I didn't know, I wasn't being hurt.  He said he now knew the realtionship was very damaged.  We have rebuilt trust.  He knows I cannot ever go through a time like that again.  The only way he know though is because we talk. 

We are now re-attached.  We are stronger than ever.  But only because, we shared what happened.

 

[LTE]

Great thoughts, Gracie.  It points up an important fact, porn, maturation and the objectification that accompanies these behaviors are poisonous to relationships. This problem goes far beyond ED.

 

[SO Reboot Partner]

After all this, Gracie, you surely have the deed to his heart.

 

[LTE]

After all this, Gracie, you surely have the deed to his heart.

When I was married I was terribly ashamed of myself but I yearned to be caught and confronted because I thought that this might help me to break free. By helping him and investing in him I am certain that you will own his heart forever.

We men can be jerks sometimes. It's a combination of our masculine aggressiveness, libido, pride, insecurity and our imperfections, but sometimes we definitely resemble the south side of a northbound horse. But we do love the ladies in our lives and we appreciate and take note of the times when our lady friends see through to our good traits. I know that I do and when I get so much as a crumb of sincere admiration and appreciation from a woman I care for it makes me feel very good inside. 

Gracie's thoughts about a primary attachment figure really struck a chord with me. That person has been missing from my life since I was divorced and it was like losing a part of myself. I'm not denying that I deserved it, I did indeed. But I need that emotional attachment and that is much, much more important that sex. One of the big problems that I see in today's world is that sexual gratification has been placed in a primary position and the emotional bond is thought to be dependent upon good sex. Life experience has taught me otherwise. When the emotional bond is healthy, sex will be fulfilling and satisfying. If the emotional bond is not healthy you can read all the sex manuals on earth and it won't do any lasting good. IMHO, sexual intercourse is the ultimate expression of emotional closeness and that closeness is the source of true satisfaction.

 

[Gracie]

Yes, I do have the deed to his heart.  And finally, two years after the start of this journey, I can truly say that I feel that.  I post here my thoughts on how we got through this.  Six months ago even I was still very emotional.  And I still have those moments but less often.  But they are me not him and they are not moments where I think he is going back to the old ways.

The attachment is a big thing.  Geoff Steurer actually has a video where he talks about this and how it affects couples dealing with porn addiciton.  It is very good.  It let my husband see why I felt adrift.  It helped me understand why I felt that way. 

I still feel it is important for wives to know what husbands are dealing with.  The attachment cannot be there if there are secrets.  When men say the wife can't handle it because of what they looked at, I can honestly say when I found out, what he looked at did not matter.  I did not ask for every detail.  But had we not had an honest conversation and an occasional fight about it, we would not have made it through.  I respect him so much more because he did talk about it and he let me vent, and cry.  He has always said however long it takes, he is not going anywhere.  And neither am I.

 

[LTE]

Yes, I do have the deed to his heart.  And finally, two years after the start of this journey, I can truly say that I feel that.  I post here my thoughts on how we got through this.  Six months ago even I was still very emotional.  And I still have those moments but less often.  But they are me not him and they are not moments where I think he is going back to the old ways.

The attachment is a big thing.  Geoff Steurer actually has a video where he talks about this and how it affects couples dealing with porn addiciton.  It is very good.  It let my husband see why I felt adrift.  It helped me understand why I felt that way. 

I still feel it is important for wives to know what husbands are dealing with.  The attachment cannot be there if there are secrets.  When men say the wife can't handle it because of what they looked at, I can honestly say when I found out, what he looked at did not matter.  I did not ask for every detail.  But had we not had an honest conversation and an occasional fight about it, we would not have made it through.  I respect him so much more because he did talk about it and he let me vent, and cry.  He has always said however long it takes, he is not going anywhere.  And neither am I.

It sounds like the two of you have turned this problem into an opportunity for growth.

 

[PMOVictory]

Hi Gracie

I want to thank you for all the wise words you share with us. Thank you also for replying on my comment on the post you shared with us on what happens to wife's when they realise that their husbands use porn.
The most important thing for any porn addict to realise is that: If you think you can fix this thing by yourself while hiding it from everyone else you will not achieve anything!
This is one reason why this forum is so successful in helping addicts to recover.
It is also helping you to be accountable towards other people.
The most help however will come if you can involve your partner in supporting you. I know, for many years I believed that I can fix this by myself. This is not true and a total lie from the enemy! No matter how difficult it might be, take your first step to recovery and tell your partner that you are having a problem and that you need help. Yes it will devastate her to realise that you were cheating on her. But it will also turn out to be your best support that you will ever get or have.
I wish I knew this before I was caught red handed. It would have saved me a lot of embarrassment and shame, and definitely would not have damaged the trust relationship as badly.
Very important is to then have an open relationship. At first you will have to listen to a lot of blaming, and answer a lot of questions. This is natural, remember your partner needs make out this in her mind, and need to make sense out of all of this.
Be patient! Reaffirm your commitment to her! Be patient!!! Listen, and give her time to vent.
Do not think that this will be something that will be there the one day and the next day it will be history. NO!! It will take time!
Be patient, Be honest, Be transparent... no matter what!
Then the healing will come, for both of you... and you will be blessed with a wonderful marriage. Free of baggage, guilt, and shame.
If handled with the necessary respect for each other and your relationship. You will end up with the best marriage ever!

Once again thank you for everything you mean for this forum!

 

[PMOVictory]

I Posted the first part of my story.

VICTORY over PMO

Have a look and realise how totally lost I were

 

[LTE]

I Posted the first part of my story.

VICTORY over PMO

Have a look and realise how totally lost I were

where?

 

[PMOVictory]

Hi Ite

I posted my story under the 40 + section titled VICTORY over PMO

 

[Gracie]

I just noticed something in reading some of the men's journals here.  As there are posts about wives/girlfriends and amount of sex with them, I see references to "do you still find her attractive?"  Now we as women are told it is not about us, or our attractiveness, sometimes physical changes after having a baby,  etc.  But there it is.  Also there is the question are we sexually available enough for the men. 

First of all, I have yet to see a woman on these boards speak of the physical  attractiveness of their partner.  All of us from the older group are aware of the fact that we and our partners are older.  Yet we do not talk about this.  I also understand that I may be different, but once I chose my guy, that was it for me.  But this is not an item that we say, "I am not able to get excited because well, I just don't find him "hot" anymore.  And yes I get men are visual, but we are too.  Seeing my man in my favorite shirt, or naked is exciting to me, even though he has put on 70 pounds since we married.  This brings me to physical changes when babies are born.  This one is less frequent but I see it.  Really?  We are birthing your child, or we have had children and you expect us to not have physical changes?  I had a friend whose husband wanted her to have surgery to "tighten" things up.  Well there is a point of view that will get us wanting your body.  Please recognize this is often beyond our control. 

Then there is our "sexual availability" to our men. Believe or not we want sex and intimacy too.  For many of us that are married to or are with a porn user here is something to consider.  Your lovemaking changes when you are addicted to porn.  You act different in everyday life.  You act differently at work.  You act differently with us.  You act differently when you have and or want sex.  It is not intimate, it is not lovemaking.  You want the sex life you had at the beginning?  Then take us out on dates.  Take us dancing.  Hold our hands, light up your eyes everytime we walk into a room.  Tell us we are beautiful.  Don't tell us this just to get us in bed.  Be sincere.  Sit next to us.  Be interested in what we have to say.  Cherish us.  Do not disrespect us by looking at other women all the time.  Or glancing and think we don't notice. 

I remember when I had been single for 11 years after my divorce at 21.  A friend asked me when I would know I was with the right guy.  I told her, "When I am sitting in a room talking to him and I do not notice anyone else in the room, either already there or walking in, that is the one for me."  And he was.  And I was. But then along came porn.

I know this is long.  But I wanted to say this.

 

[LTE]

I just notice something in reading some of the men's journals here.  As there are posts about wives/girlfriends and amount of sex with them, I see references to "do you still find her attractive?"  Now we as women are told it is not about us, or our attractiveness, sometimes physical changes after having a baby,  etc.  But there it is.  Also there is the question are we sexually available enough for the men. 

First of all, I have yet to see a woman on these boards speak of the physical  attractiveness of their partner.  All of us from the older group are aware of the fact that we and our partners are older.  Yet we do not talk about this.  I also understand that I may be different, but once I chose my guy, that was it for me.  But this is not an item that we say, "I am not able to get excited because well, I just don't find him "hot" anymore.  And yes I get men are visual, but we are too.  Seeing my man in my favorite shirt, or naked is exciting to me, even though he has put on 70 pounds since we married.  This brings me to physical changes when babies are born.  This one is less frequent but I see it.  Really?  We are birthing your child, or we have had children and you expect us to not have physical changes?  I had a friend whose husband wanted her to have surgery to "tighten" things up.  Weoull there is a point of view that will get us wanting your body.  Please recognize this is often beyond our control. 

Then there is our "sexual availability" to our men. Believe or not we want sex and intimacy too.  For many of us that are married to or are with a porn user here is something to consider.  Your lovemaking changes when you are addicted to porn.  You act different in everyday life.  You act differently at work.  You act differently with us.  You act differently when you have and or want sex.  It is not intimate, it is not lovemaking.  You want the sex life you had at the beginning?  Then take us out on dates.  Take us dancing.  Hold our hands, light up your eyes everytime we walk into a room.  Tell us we are beautiful.  Don't tell us just to get us in bed.  Be sincere.  Sit next to us.  Be interested in what we have to say.  Cherish us.  Do not disrespect us by looking at other women all the time.  Or glancing and think we don't notice. 

I remember when I had been single for 11 years after my divorce at 21.  A friend asked me when I would know I was with the right guy.  I told her, "When I am sitting in a room talking to him and I do not notice anyone else in the room, either already there or walking in, that is the one for me."  And he was.  And I was. But then along came porn.

I know this is long.  But I wanted to say this.

That is a great post, Gracie. IMO, sex is something shared between loving partners, but it is not the central thing in a marriage. Our popular culture all but worships sex, while, at the same time, assigning taboos right and left. Masturbation turns our sexual interests inward and is the enemy of intimacy. Intimacy is where it's at. 

 

[SlaveToRighteousness]

When I was a PMO addict,

1. the shape and condition of my wife's body was a huge concern to me,
2. my wife's "availability" for sex (and in particular, exciting sex) was a huge concern to me,
3. I wasn't happy with my wife's body,
4. I wasn't happy with my wife's availability for sex or lack of interest in variety.

Since quitting PMO,

1. the shape and condition of my wife's body is nowhere near as important to me,
2. my wife's "availability" for sex (and in particular, exciting sex) is nowhere near as important to me,
3. I am happy with my wife's body,
4. I am happy with my wife's increased availability for sex and of level of interest in variety.

Over the past year as I have made my wife the only outlet for my sexual energy and as I have treated her like a woman that I am in love with, my wife has actually become much more open sexually and is willing to experiment and have fun in a way that she wasn't before, back when I tried to force her to be like the porn women I used to look at all the time. At the same time, my own interest in experimenting and variety has returned back to a "normal" level, and we have essentially met each other in the middle of the spectrum.

I am inclined to think that most men who complain about their wife's body or availability for sex are probably comparing their wife to an unrealistic standard promoted by porn that simply cannot be met by real women, and as long as men hold on to that standard, they are never going to be satisfied.