S
SO Reboot Partner
Guest
Gracie said:
Absolutely.
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- Thread starter Gracie
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Absolutely.
rider654321
Active Member
Hi Gracie, PMOV and SO Reboot Partner,
Thank you for your comments as I do appreciate your feed back and I value your perspective.
Reading your personal accounts, and in particular the way you describe the depth of the pain you went through once you found out reinforced why I feel it is better (at least in my case) to beat the addiction first and confess the success later.
The question was never moot, I did take on board your responses and applied them to my own circumstances, though our circumstances are different for many reasons.
I can't risk putting my wife through the same suffering and heartache you ladies have endured and bravely shared. I have no idea how my wife will react if I tell her the full truth. I could tell her a lesser truth to protect her from the gorier details, but then that would still be a lie.
The most significant pain will come from having to shatter my wife's understanding of what we have together. She has been hurt by men who physically cheated on her in her past marriage and while she was in two other relationships.
Even though I know this will sound like the most massive of lame cop outs, she thinks the world of me and us (even despite my ED issues), and I don't want to rob her of that sense of what she believes she has with me by telling her now.
I do understand what you mean SO Reboot partner when you made the comment "she already knows there something is wrong in the marriage", however, in my case she doesn't, because things have been the same all along.
I was having a battle with ED from the beginning of my relationship with my current wife. Erections were hit and miss from the start and I used Cialas with some success, but ultimately we found other ways to be sexually intimate that were enjoyable and satisfying when penetration wasn't possible. So within our relationship there hasn't been the noticeable lack of desire or an absence of regular sexual contact. Our sexual contact was just different in that there wasn't always penetration.
None of what I am saying is meant as an excuse to diminish the wrongness of my behaviour. The truth is my battle with p addiction long pre-dated my current wife's involvement in my life. The cancer of p addiction was in me well before she and I met.
Weighing up the pro's and con's I believe that for now this needs to be my burden. I have to shoulder this and protect my wife form the kind of emotional trauma you ladies have endured. I know I have to take full ownership of the problem and work though it to fix myself for my wife's sake and my own.
I am well on my way now thanks to the support and information found here.
Thank you for your comments as I do appreciate your feed back and I value your perspective.
Reading your personal accounts, and in particular the way you describe the depth of the pain you went through once you found out reinforced why I feel it is better (at least in my case) to beat the addiction first and confess the success later.
The question was never moot, I did take on board your responses and applied them to my own circumstances, though our circumstances are different for many reasons.
I can't risk putting my wife through the same suffering and heartache you ladies have endured and bravely shared. I have no idea how my wife will react if I tell her the full truth. I could tell her a lesser truth to protect her from the gorier details, but then that would still be a lie.
The most significant pain will come from having to shatter my wife's understanding of what we have together. She has been hurt by men who physically cheated on her in her past marriage and while she was in two other relationships.
Even though I know this will sound like the most massive of lame cop outs, she thinks the world of me and us (even despite my ED issues), and I don't want to rob her of that sense of what she believes she has with me by telling her now.
I do understand what you mean SO Reboot partner when you made the comment "she already knows there something is wrong in the marriage", however, in my case she doesn't, because things have been the same all along.
I was having a battle with ED from the beginning of my relationship with my current wife. Erections were hit and miss from the start and I used Cialas with some success, but ultimately we found other ways to be sexually intimate that were enjoyable and satisfying when penetration wasn't possible. So within our relationship there hasn't been the noticeable lack of desire or an absence of regular sexual contact. Our sexual contact was just different in that there wasn't always penetration.
None of what I am saying is meant as an excuse to diminish the wrongness of my behaviour. The truth is my battle with p addiction long pre-dated my current wife's involvement in my life. The cancer of p addiction was in me well before she and I met.
Weighing up the pro's and con's I believe that for now this needs to be my burden. I have to shoulder this and protect my wife form the kind of emotional trauma you ladies have endured. I know I have to take full ownership of the problem and work though it to fix myself for my wife's sake and my own.
I am well on my way now thanks to the support and information found here.
S
SO Reboot Partner
Guest
Rider,
My original comment isn't really a personal thing directed at you. Your decision is yours and I respect that.
The question "to tell or not to tell" seems to always come up around the time the guy is waking up to the impact of his diminishing hobby on not only his life, but the lives of others.
Every guy doesn't ask the internet what to do, but a lot ask - or it seems that way. Most will take the responses and decide not to tell for some similar reasons you gave above - minimize the "hurt" for the partner and "wait until I'm successful" are common refrains.
If you had a communicable disease, would you tell your partner? Ebola? STD's? Do you kiss her if you have the flu? Not telling is like being Typhoid Mary, only for mental anguish and codependency.
As I delve more deeply into why I choose to react the way I did before and after learning "the secret", I see a pattern of behavior in myself that says I absolutely knew something was wrong. I worried and compensated and covered for him long before I knew what it was I was dealing with. I tried my best to hold my head high when he told his friends he had a "smoking hot secretary" in front of me.
I made choices that were not in my best interest, set weak boundaries, made allowances and centered myself around "supporting" him rather than being strong for myself. I adopted codependency behaviors that supported his addiction. I am trying to unwind that now, for me first and then to support him if he decides to kick this thing for good.
Addiction guarantees codependency in the partner. That burden may have developed or already there when the relationship started. I helped him be a pmo addict with a professional facade and a loving family and sacrificed my needs. It takes two to be married and an addict.
Not telling, the fear and shame, kept that engine running for many sexless years of tears and walking on eggshells and disconnection and disengagement and looking to him for identity as a woman and thinking there is something wrong with me.
[size=12pt]It seems kind, leaving a partner unaware, but it isn't. Not knowing means the partner can't make informed decisions to heal, while the addict can. It is selfish, imho.
[/size]
I respect your decision Rider, but understand you are taking away her ability to decide.
My original comment isn't really a personal thing directed at you. Your decision is yours and I respect that.
The question "to tell or not to tell" seems to always come up around the time the guy is waking up to the impact of his diminishing hobby on not only his life, but the lives of others.
Every guy doesn't ask the internet what to do, but a lot ask - or it seems that way. Most will take the responses and decide not to tell for some similar reasons you gave above - minimize the "hurt" for the partner and "wait until I'm successful" are common refrains.
If you had a communicable disease, would you tell your partner? Ebola? STD's? Do you kiss her if you have the flu? Not telling is like being Typhoid Mary, only for mental anguish and codependency.
As I delve more deeply into why I choose to react the way I did before and after learning "the secret", I see a pattern of behavior in myself that says I absolutely knew something was wrong. I worried and compensated and covered for him long before I knew what it was I was dealing with. I tried my best to hold my head high when he told his friends he had a "smoking hot secretary" in front of me.
I made choices that were not in my best interest, set weak boundaries, made allowances and centered myself around "supporting" him rather than being strong for myself. I adopted codependency behaviors that supported his addiction. I am trying to unwind that now, for me first and then to support him if he decides to kick this thing for good.
Addiction guarantees codependency in the partner. That burden may have developed or already there when the relationship started. I helped him be a pmo addict with a professional facade and a loving family and sacrificed my needs. It takes two to be married and an addict.
Not telling, the fear and shame, kept that engine running for many sexless years of tears and walking on eggshells and disconnection and disengagement and looking to him for identity as a woman and thinking there is something wrong with me.
[size=12pt]It seems kind, leaving a partner unaware, but it isn't. Not knowing means the partner can't make informed decisions to heal, while the addict can. It is selfish, imho.
[/size]
I respect your decision Rider, but understand you are taking away her ability to decide.
rider654321
Active Member
SO Reboot Partner said:
Thanks for your reply. I absolutely agree in circumstances like yours where you have been essentially trapped in a sexless marriage for years and been putting on a brave facade, discloure would be entirely appropriate and essential.
My relationship with my wife has been entirely different to your circumstances. None of the issues you describe in your last post that have been going on for years in your relationship have been happening in ours.
Beyond the ED issue that has been present from the beginning (and we found ways around that), there is nothing that stands out as abnormal in our relationship .... and I really do mean nothing. We remain sexual together regularly and there has always been an abundance of affection in our relationship even considering the usually ups and downs that go with any relationship. There has been no pain, no walking aroound on egg shells, no codependancy issues, and certainly no years of sexless living.
The only facade has been mine. I love my wife beyond what mere words can describe, but I've always had this struggle with porn addiction. The porn abuse is "me" and always has been "me". Which is why I feel it is "me" that has to take responsibilty for my actions and do what I am to overcome the addiction.
I do understand and appreciate your point of view. I see this as something I have to fix myself.
Again thanks for the feedback.
PMOVictory
Active Member
I have been following this conversation and chirped in on it as well.
Sure I see the validity in what every one has to say. I'm sure the last word still has not been spoken on this subject as yet.
I'm certain that as we differ from outward appearance, so out situations differ as well. I'm convinced that there can not really be a set rule for each situation. My dad has a saying, he is 71, does not talk a lot but when he speaks he speaks with wisdom. I still need to hear anyone els use this saying, but what it says is so true.
He says; "Every husband kisses his wife in his own way."
To me this says it all.
Stay strong and be Blessed!
Sure I see the validity in what every one has to say. I'm sure the last word still has not been spoken on this subject as yet.
I'm certain that as we differ from outward appearance, so out situations differ as well. I'm convinced that there can not really be a set rule for each situation. My dad has a saying, he is 71, does not talk a lot but when he speaks he speaks with wisdom. I still need to hear anyone els use this saying, but what it says is so true.
He says; "Every husband kisses his wife in his own way."
To me this says it all.
Stay strong and be Blessed!
I favor disclosure, but as a single man it's a fairly easy opinion for me to hold. Ultimately, we all bear our own burden and must decide according to our circumstances, experiences and our personal values. Nonetheless, carrying a secret around will take a toll.
In my last marriage there was one piece of information, non PMO related, that I withheld from my wife and I believe that it damaged my health to carry this weight upon my shoulders. I'm sorry that I chose as I did.
The other thought that comes to mind is to compare PMO to adultery. While they are not one and the same, they are both ways of seeking sexual satisfaction apart from your spouse. I would never condone one concealing adultery from their mate and I find it hard to come up with a point of demarcation that would make it unacceptable to conceal adultery but acceptable to conceal PMO. I don't have a definitive answer on that one.
In my last marriage there was one piece of information, non PMO related, that I withheld from my wife and I believe that it damaged my health to carry this weight upon my shoulders. I'm sorry that I chose as I did.
The other thought that comes to mind is to compare PMO to adultery. While they are not one and the same, they are both ways of seeking sexual satisfaction apart from your spouse. I would never condone one concealing adultery from their mate and I find it hard to come up with a point of demarcation that would make it unacceptable to conceal adultery but acceptable to conceal PMO. I don't have a definitive answer on that one.
rider654321
Active Member
lte said:
It's impossible to argue against the wisdom in those words, Ite.
S
SO Reboot Partner
Guest
Hey Guys,
What ever path you choose, I wish you well.
I still believe the addiction creates a lot of cognitive distortions to protect itself - ie (and this is NOT toward any one individual, only observations of many posts) I-don't-want-to-hurt-her and this-is-my-problem
The first step in any 12 step program is admitting one has no control over their addiction. This is a big step because addiction wants to be in control. This problem is bigger than you. Until that gets addressed, you won't get better and tell her later.
Also, just about every addict wants to be convinced to sobriety with a story that is similar to their own and shoot down anyone's advice that doesn't reflect exactly the same circumstances. I haven't read a single account where the addict recovered 100% all on his own without telling his partner - that includes wife, gf or partner.
Addiction thinking is really clever - don't tell the wife/gf because it could hurt me, but say its because I don't want to hurt her. (Also, real life accountability isn't a counter on the internet.) It takes some courage, trust and commitment to heal to face that.
As I said in my first post about this, it is really just an observation. It may not be time for admitting a lack of control over the addiction. Perhaps one isn't ready. That is okay, because it has to be okay.
What ever path you choose, I wish you well.
I still believe the addiction creates a lot of cognitive distortions to protect itself - ie (and this is NOT toward any one individual, only observations of many posts) I-don't-want-to-hurt-her and this-is-my-problem
The first step in any 12 step program is admitting one has no control over their addiction. This is a big step because addiction wants to be in control. This problem is bigger than you. Until that gets addressed, you won't get better and tell her later.
Also, just about every addict wants to be convinced to sobriety with a story that is similar to their own and shoot down anyone's advice that doesn't reflect exactly the same circumstances. I haven't read a single account where the addict recovered 100% all on his own without telling his partner - that includes wife, gf or partner.
Addiction thinking is really clever - don't tell the wife/gf because it could hurt me, but say its because I don't want to hurt her. (Also, real life accountability isn't a counter on the internet.) It takes some courage, trust and commitment to heal to face that.
As I said in my first post about this, it is really just an observation. It may not be time for admitting a lack of control over the addiction. Perhaps one isn't ready. That is okay, because it has to be okay.
rider654321
Active Member
SO Reboot Partner said:
Hi So Reboot partner,
Oh that is true too. There's definitely part of me that choosing not to disclose because I know it will make my life harder, I absolutely accept that proposal.
S
SO Reboot Partner
Guest
rider654321 said:
Ask a man if he wants to walk into a buzz saw and if he is sane, he will say "No, I do not want to walk into a buzz saw." Avoiding and keeping secret what is unpleasant or difficult is sane, the problem is that is exactly what addiction uses to survive by disconnecting the user from support.
I don't want to see you walk into a buzz saw. I hope you can at some point come clean, because it will mean you are reaching out for your real support group. I really do respect your decision. What you decide has to be right for you. When the time is right.... I'm starting to sound like a Cialis commercial.
rider654321
Active Member
SO Reboot Partner said:
Your not sounding like a commercial SORP. I do appreciate your perspective, and like Ite's wisdom, its impossible to fault your logic.
My decision is ultimately mine to make and I do so with the best of intention, and with an understanding of my wife's past relationship experiences. My wife has endured a lot of pain in her past. Emotionally distant parents and a dysfunctional family growing up. She was a repeat runaway from the age of 14. Was in and out of forster care till 18. Her first sexual experience was as the victim of a rape. Every partner she has had in life had cheated on her physically which she then internalised as being somehow her fault, simply because it just kept happening to her. She had battled depression and suicidal thoughts for years, and though she doesn't know I have read them, I found private letters from her daughter from that time in her life where her daughter was pleading with her not to end her life. It is gut wrenching stuff to read.
At age 50 she meets me. For the first time in her life she has a loving family that embraces her and has a partner who supports her to grow emotionally. She has flourished in our relationship and grown so much as a person. She has been able to build up a strong sense of herself and an even stronger sense of us. She not only loves the life we share, she is in love with the life we share.
Dispite my addiction we have kept each other satisfied sexually and there is no sign that anything is outwardly wrong in our relationship whatsoever, other than I carry the heavy burden of my secret life that long pre-dates her involvement in my life and has nothing to do with anything she has done or not done.
I know that if I confess it will make me feel better, but it has the chance of sendinng her into a downward spiral of emotional dispair. She will realise she has lived yet another lie and will most likely internalise that and lead her into further self destructive thoughts. I love her and know her well enough to know that I can not possibly do that to her.
I am on the right path now and I feel strong and assured that porn is finally out of my life for good.
I do respect everyone's opinion on the issue of disclosure and I agree that truth and honesty is the preferred option, though I also accept there are mitigating circumstances and valid reasons where protecting a person from the truth might be the better course of action too.
PMOVictory
Active Member
Time for me to chirp in on the conversation again.
Rider, I think if anybody should know the best it will be you. IMO go with your gut.
Having read all that you shared about your wife, and I guess it is only scratching the surface, I can not but think that you will do what is best. I know, as you do, that the time will com e for you to share it with her. But the way you will be doing it will be long after your reboot and getting this devil out of your system. Rebuild, as you are presently doing, your relationship on a solid foundation free of PMO. Your wife will know that there is something different and then you can seise the opportunity at the right time to share with her that because of your relationship and you being happy with her it was possible to rid this thing out of your life never to return.
Ite, Gracie & SORP Isn't this what the forum were created for. Exchanging knowledge, Ideas and opinions, helping others to take everything in consideration so that they can make up their minds, knowing that they still have the final say, but were informed about all the possible pitfalls.
To all of you and the rest of the Reboot Nation
Stay strong and receive the Blessing!
Rider, I think if anybody should know the best it will be you. IMO go with your gut.
Having read all that you shared about your wife, and I guess it is only scratching the surface, I can not but think that you will do what is best. I know, as you do, that the time will com e for you to share it with her. But the way you will be doing it will be long after your reboot and getting this devil out of your system. Rebuild, as you are presently doing, your relationship on a solid foundation free of PMO. Your wife will know that there is something different and then you can seise the opportunity at the right time to share with her that because of your relationship and you being happy with her it was possible to rid this thing out of your life never to return.
Ite, Gracie & SORP Isn't this what the forum were created for. Exchanging knowledge, Ideas and opinions, helping others to take everything in consideration so that they can make up their minds, knowing that they still have the final say, but were informed about all the possible pitfalls.
To all of you and the rest of the Reboot Nation
Stay strong and receive the Blessing!
The intent was not to shut rider down. The intent is to show that people do find out about the porn use. It cannot be hidden forever. I was like his wife with a bunch of stuff. (child abuse, child sex abuse, rape, domestice etc.) I can tell you that if my husband came to me and said hallelujah I am healed and oh by the way for x number of years when I was with you I was a porn addict and I brought this with me but decided you would only be hurt by the knowledge. I would be upset because he did not trust my love for him enough to tell me and kept the secret so he is just lumped with the abusers that made my life the way they wanted it to be. Because dear men here, when you do not share you control the marriage. You are making it what you want it to be. It feels like with are not worth trusting. This is why women have to take a step back. What we thought our marriage was is not true. This is why SORP is not taking responsibility for her husband's choices. We all have to reach that point. Because we want to share, we want to be two united against this thing.
If two committed people each putting in 50 percent and yes I know it changes, this is just a math thing. And one holds back 2 percent for themselves then we do not have the full 100 percent. It is the little bits here and there that are held back that makes the foundation start to not look great. It makes it easier to hold back. Secrets are not good because they are eventually found out. And if you do not want to hurt someone, then don't keep them. They wither in the light of day.
If two committed people each putting in 50 percent and yes I know it changes, this is just a math thing. And one holds back 2 percent for themselves then we do not have the full 100 percent. It is the little bits here and there that are held back that makes the foundation start to not look great. It makes it easier to hold back. Secrets are not good because they are eventually found out. And if you do not want to hurt someone, then don't keep them. They wither in the light of day.
rider654321
Active Member
Hi Gracie,
Firstly I want to say how sorry I am to hear you too went through those kind of things in your life
I do get what your saying Gracie and I know your not trying to shut me down. I respect your honest input to the discussion though the closest agreement we're going to reach is to agree to disagree
I do have to say that if I was to tell my wife that I had beaten the addiction, I would do so with far more tact and diplomacy than the words you've chosen to describe how such a conversation might go
Through our own life experiences each of us develops our own personal filter through which we see and evaluate things. I'm certain we both make decisions based on what we believe is best for the given set of circumstances as we know them at the time.
The important thing is I'm here to fix a problem I've had for years. It's my problem. I created it. I was the one that fuelled it over the years, and I was the one that became seemingly powerless to ever stop it.
I'm here now to fix the problem and for the first time I have the right information, the right tools and the right mindset. And importantly, I now know "why" all of my previous attempts to quit failed.
What matters is I am here and I'm making serious progress in the right direction and maybe my journey might even encourage others who are walking the same path?
Firstly I want to say how sorry I am to hear you too went through those kind of things in your life
I do get what your saying Gracie and I know your not trying to shut me down. I respect your honest input to the discussion though the closest agreement we're going to reach is to agree to disagree
I do have to say that if I was to tell my wife that I had beaten the addiction, I would do so with far more tact and diplomacy than the words you've chosen to describe how such a conversation might go
Through our own life experiences each of us develops our own personal filter through which we see and evaluate things. I'm certain we both make decisions based on what we believe is best for the given set of circumstances as we know them at the time.
The important thing is I'm here to fix a problem I've had for years. It's my problem. I created it. I was the one that fuelled it over the years, and I was the one that became seemingly powerless to ever stop it.
I'm here now to fix the problem and for the first time I have the right information, the right tools and the right mindset. And importantly, I now know "why" all of my previous attempts to quit failed.
What matters is I am here and I'm making serious progress in the right direction and maybe my journey might even encourage others who are walking the same path?
PMOVictory
Active Member
The math does not work like this in a marriage. For each to put in 50% will and can not work.
Each must put in 100% for the math in a marriage to add up to 100% 8)
Okay we will split the math hairs. One that thinks their marriage is a certain way gives 100% but the other because of their need to keep a secret gives 98% or 90 or what ever just to keep that secret is not 100 percent committed because there is a secret that affects the marriage pretty directly. Then that person says I only kept this secret to protect you. The point is that is not what is happening. The secret keeper is protecting themselves so they do not experience the pain of dealing with the issue. This can be about any secret not just porn. It can be about money, family, jobs anything. The secret keeper is controlling the marriage they are controlling the outcome so that when the secret is told it is at the best time for them to tell. All in the name of protection.
Even coming from an abusive background, having everything out in the open about anything is much better than trying to guess. Mainly because we lived a life of secrets. And if people feel responsible for someone's pain they probably are causing some pain. Talk about it and then help each other.
Even coming from an abusive background, having everything out in the open about anything is much better than trying to guess. Mainly because we lived a life of secrets. And if people feel responsible for someone's pain they probably are causing some pain. Talk about it and then help each other.
S
SO Reboot Partner
Guest
PMOVictory said:
How much for the p addiction discount (or p-pilferage rate) in your marriage percentage participation paradigm? Gracie's point was that P diminished the marriage by 2%, I think it is closer to 92.6%
PMOVictory
Active Member
Your points are adding up ladies!
Thank you 8)
Thank you 8)
We try to help. This addiction distorts so much thinking. Just remember women are tougher than men think. And from my work with victims I know the truth can always be handled. It may be painful, it may be tough but it is the truth. Secrets and lies of omission are like vapor you never know what is in your hand and you can't see it or identify it.