Objectifying Women

[jkkk]

If any guys have any techniques that you can share on how to deall with it, please do. What works for you? I now have the "Porn Doc" answers, so I know where to start (I started already the two-second rule, just without two seconds, now I'll stick to those two seconds), but any tips will be appreciated.

And yes, the feminine input - priceless.

Here is an exercise you should try because it's good that you admit you have a problem. I'm in the same
boat so hear me out;
The next time you're at the mall and please make sure you have a constructive reason to go and when
you're there, focus on the men. Take in their mannerisms and behavior. Forget about the ladies and
just notice men. When I say notice, I'm not suggesting starring at their crotch. I want you to observe
other oglers in this target rich environment. You will see how bad they look and how awful it is.
Essentially, what you see is yourself in action and you will be disgusted to think that you look just
as awful when you do it yourself.
You will learn that other men out there do what you do. The purpose of this is to be inspired to behave
differently.
I remember standing in line at Chipotle the other night. This dude in front me kept leering at this PYT
at the end of the line. It was so obvious because he had to turn around to do it. His body language
pretty much said it all. Now if you get a quick glance when she walked in, that's fine, quick glance and
back to facing in front of you. But he kept turning around and he might as well be salivating. It looks bad
and you don't want that for yourself.

I do have a serious problem. I always admitted PMO problem but I think that for years I did not have the balls to admit this. And this is an equally important problem. Or actually - the same problem as PMO (like its a PMO-subcategory, so to speak, or just another sex addiction behaviour).

Thanks a lot! Watching men. I will try Sound like a great exercise. I think not only because I could see how they behave, but this just sound like a brilliant exercise to keep focusing on something else.

Two things work well for me at the moment:

1. only one look for two seconds rule

2. realizing that she's not there for me / not dressing for me -> I think the power of that realization is that it hits the "Master of the Universe" myth on the head. I certainly have that issue.

It is amazing how PMO has changed my out look towards women...I grew up in a normal family with a sister and always saw women for what they really are, equal but different.  After years of porn use, I guess my views changed without my thinking about it or really realizing it until I became aware of my addiction.  PMO has led me to objectify women and see any attractive woman as a potential lust object, not for the person they really are.  What a horrible transformation.  This addiction goes much deeper then I first realized.  Now I am having to rewire my brain from the dopamine and other chemicals as well as change my habits and attitudes towards the female gender.  I attribute a lot to the constant novelty aspect of this addiction,  I had become a scanner of crowds, without even realizing I was doing it, I could pick out an woman who is attractive or revealingly attired quick as a wink.  I am on my way to stopping this ridiculous behavior.  There is nobody who I would rather have by my side then the woman I live with, so why continue to "hunt".

I'm 100% in the same situation - couldn't use better words to describe it. It really is comforting to know that one is not alone.

"Now I am having to rewire my brain from the dopamine and other chemicals as well as change my habits and attitudes towards the female gender." -> I actually really think that those habits and attitudes that so profoundly affects are just part of the addiction. Watching women, hunting, releases the dopamine and imbalances our brains from the chemical point of view. We might not watch P, but it is of no use if we keep letting ourselves to substitute it with scanning crowds. That what I think. This sh** seems "innocent", yet its no better than watching P - I would even go that far.

 

[LTE]

I am convinced that the problems of masturbation, porn use and ogling are all facets of the same flawed thinking. You can make it better.

 

[Wanttobebetter]

"We might not watch P, but it is of no use if we keep letting ourselves to substitute it with scanning crowds. That what I think. This sh** seems "innocent", yet its no better than watching P..."

That is an AMAZING observation, jkkk, truly a keeper! That's one of those realizations I'll take with me every day.  Thank you!

 

[LTE]

You nailed it, JKKK. If it gives you a burst of dopamine it feeds the problem. As I see it, when the reward circuit starts overwhelming natural levels of desire, whether for sex, food, alcohol or whatever, that's where the trouble starts.

 

[chicken]

objectifying women and PMO are definitely linked.  I mean how can you see all those images over years and years and not think that women serve only one purpose?  Just another way that this stuff rots your brain.  What a mess.

 

[SO Reboot Partner]

If any guys have any techniques that you can share on how to deall with it, please do. What works for you? I now have the "Porn Doc" answers, so I know where to start (I started already the two-second rule, just without two seconds, now I'll stick to those two seconds), but any tips will be appreciated.

And yes, the feminine input - priceless.

Here is an exercise you should try because it's good that you admit you have a problem. I'm in the same
boat so hear me out;
The next time you're at the mall and please make sure you have a constructive reason to go and when
you're there, focus on the men. Take in their mannerisms and behavior. Forget about the ladies and
just notice men. When I say notice, I'm not suggesting starring at their crotch. I want you to observe
other oglers in this target rich environment. You will see how bad they look and how awful it is.
Essentially, what you see is yourself in action and you will be disgusted to think that you look just
as awful when you do it yourself.
You will learn that other men out there do what you do. The purpose of this is to be inspired to behave
differently.
I remember standing in line at Chipotle the other night. This dude in front me kept leering at this PYT
at the end of the line. It was so obvious because he had to turn around to do it. His body language
pretty much said it all. Now if you get a quick glance when she walked in, that's fine, quick glance and
back to facing in front of you. But he kept turning around and he might as well be salivating. It looks bad
and you don't want that for yourself.

I do have a serious problem. I always admitted PMO problem but I think that for years I did not have the balls to admit this. And this is an equally important problem. Or actually - the same problem as PMO (like its a PMO-subcategory, so to speak, or just another sex addiction behaviour).

Thanks a lot! Watching men. I will try Sound like a great exercise. I think not only because I could see how they behave, but this just sound like a brilliant exercise to keep focusing on something else.

Two things work well for me at the moment:

1. only one look for two seconds rule

2. realizing that she's not there for me / not dressing for me -> I think the power of that realization is that it hits the "Master of the Universe" myth on the head. I certainly have that issue.

It is amazing how PMO has changed my out look towards women...I grew up in a normal family with a sister and always saw women for what they really are, equal but different.  After years of porn use, I guess my views changed without my thinking about it or really realizing it until I became aware of my addiction.  PMO has led me to objectify women and see any attractive woman as a potential lust object, not for the person they really are.  What a horrible transformation.  This addiction goes much deeper then I first realized.  Now I am having to rewire my brain from the dopamine and other chemicals as well as change my habits and attitudes towards the female gender.  I attribute a lot to the constant novelty aspect of this addiction,  I had become a scanner of crowds, without even realizing I was doing it, I could pick out an woman who is attractive or revealingly attired quick as a wink.  I am on my way to stopping this ridiculous behavior.  There is nobody who I would rather have by my side then the woman I live with, so why continue to "hunt".

I'm 100% in the same situation - couldn't use better words to describe it. It really is comforting to know that one is not alone.

"Now I am having to rewire my brain from the dopamine and other chemicals as well as change my habits and attitudes towards the female gender." -> I actually really think that those habits and attitudes that so profoundly affects are just part of the addiction. Watching women, hunting, releases the dopamine and imbalances our brains from the chemical point of view. We might not watch P, but it is of no use if we keep letting ourselves to substitute it with scanning crowds. That what I think. This sh** seems "innocent", yet its no better than watching P - I would even go that far.

^This is very thoughtful.

Those restaurants with the weird chicken wings and owl logo (like it has anything to do with owls) make a lot of money off the ogglers and those that feel like the "Master of the Universe"

Guys that don't fall for the hype have 1) More Bank and 2) a Genuine chance at a relationship

 

[LTE]

Those restaurants with the weird chicken wings and owl logo (like it has anything to do with owls) make a lot of money off the ogglers and those that feel like the "Master of the Universe"

Guys that don't fall for the hype have 1) More Bank and 2) a Genuine chance at a relationship

I've gone into Hooters many times because of a coworker that likes the place and, to be completely honest, it didn't trigger anything whatsoever in me. The waitresses are people, some are very nice, and it just did nothing to arouse me or cause ogling; and this was before I rebooted.

 

[Wanttobebetter]

Okay women, help me understand a couple things please...

Tights are not pants. Anybody agree? If a woman heads out for the day to pick up dry cleaning, put gas in the car and update her voter registration, wearing tights, what are her reasons for that clothing selection and what are her expectations for male reaction?

Tube tops. Somebody able to explain them from the female perspective?

Next, was the thong not invented to create a seamless, non-existent appearance under clothing?

I am trying and I am really doing better, but life is about perspective. What is the female perspective? What is the male perspective?  What should they each be?

 

[chicken]

Often women are the victims of the wider media...they see women in magazines and on tv wearing those types of clothes so they emulate that.  They often aren't thinking of anything else, especially not expecting men to leer.  There are however exceptions.  There are a certain percentage of women who want to be the focus of attention.  They all have various reasons for this, but that is their thing...even more twisted is that a smaller subset of these types will even want to give you shit for leering at them even though that was there intent all along.

Regardless of their reasons for dressing the way they do, it isn't something you or I can change.  What we can change is the way that we react and respond to this visual stimulation.  The ball is in our court.

 

[Bibbity]

Wantobebetter it's called Self-objectification.  You objectify us but even worse WE objectify ourselves.  We are taught from birth that our appearance is what matters the most to others.  Body dissatisfaction among women is at 90%+ and the media and porn perpetuate it by making us all try and fit into a very narrow and small mold of "sexiness".  Those who can't or don't just give up altogether.  I have felt for a very long time that my intelligence is at war with my sexuality.  I wouldn't wear high heels or anything remotely feminine for fear of not being valued for my mind.  It didn't matter because I was ogled anyway!  It's not always about what you wear.

My perspective as someone who is ogled quite a bit might help.  I have begun to restore my femininity because I really feel that the male gaze has taken it from me.  I view feminine clothes as "too sexual" when the reality is that men have been trained to view it in an objectifying way rather than a feminine energy sort of way. Feminine sexuality is very powerful and there is nothing wrong with that.  True masculine men can feel it but not succumb to it in a perverted way.  They can respect it and love it for what it is.  I have begun to wear high heels and nicer clothing (not revealing but feminine) and the looks have definitely increased but I am taking my power back.  It's a work in progress but I need to feel beautiful for me and part of that is seeing myself in a healthy way and wearing clothes that I enjoy...instead of trying to cover myself up to hide the fact that I have breasts, legs or an ass.  I'm no longer ashamed of my curves. 

I don't mind men who look and smile.  But those that look a few times and think you don't see them bother me.  They make me feel small.  I shrink away in shame.  Shame of my sexual body and what it brings to me.  Just today I was at the grocery store and was being looked at multiple times by a man who was there with his wife and kids.  His wife was overweight and she saw him looking at me.  I immediately felt her pain and wanted to slap the husband and tell him to "wake up", respect your wife!!  I was wearing leggings with a tunic that covered my butt.  I was not dressed to encourage.  Women will get this anyway if men find them attractive for whatever reason.  I think women who encourage this kind of ogling are narcissistic and feed off the energy.  OR perhaps they are just more secure in their feminine sexuality and can handle it.  Either way it's up to men to enjoy the feminine energy but don't take it to 'perve town"!!

And how ironic is it that while I was being looked at by other men my husband was in turn checking out others.  It just goes to show that your partners looks have nothing to do with this.  Now my husband realizes that looking and thinking a woman is beautiful is perfectly normal but where he goes after that thought is a choice.  I also wanted to add that if 10 guys looked or ogled me there were 10 that didn't.  Did they not find me attractive?  Probably they did find me attractive but they have the 'ogle' part of the equation under control.  I greatly admire those men and think their wives are so lucky 

 

[jkkk]

Those restaurants with the weird chicken wings and owl logo (like it has anything to do with owls) make a lot of money off the ogglers and those that feel like the "Master of the Universe"

Guys that don't fall for the hype have 1) More Bank and 2) a Genuine chance at a relationship

I've gone into Hooters many times because of a coworker that likes the place and, to be completely honest, it didn't trigger anything whatsoever in me. The waitresses are people, some are very nice, and it just did nothing to arouse me or cause ogling; and this was before I rebooted.

Thanks for all the kind words, everyone.

If I went to Hooters, I would find it very difficult to keep my eyes down. Dopamine would definitely be surging. That's just how this particular addictive pattern affects  some of us. As I wrote before malls are pretty risky places as well -> lots of people, lots of women, usually nicely dressed. But the same relates to a busy street on a Friday or Saturday evening. Lots of "objects" to lay your eyes on. And so "hunting" mode switches on.

objectifying women and PMO are definitely linked.  I mean how can you see all those images over years and years and not think that women serve only one purpose?  Just another way that this stuff rots your brain.  What a mess.

You're right. This is how it happens. This also how objectifying went invisible on my radar for such a long time. This is why this addiction is really difficult to tackle.

Often women are the victims of the wider media...they see women in magazines and on tv wearing those types of clothes so they emulate that.  They often aren't thinking of anything else, especially not expecting men to leer.  There are however exceptions.  There are a certain percentage of women who want to be the focus of attention.  They all have various reasons for this, but that is their thing...even more twisted is that a smaller subset of these types will even want to give you shit for leering at them even though that was there intent all along.

Regardless of their reasons for dressing the way they do, it isn't something you or I can change.  What we can change is the way that we react and respond to this visual stimulation.  The ball is in our court.

I agree.

It is true that some women dress provocatively but that is their right. They can do so.

And if any of us, guys, showed up for a date and out date would nicely dressed is some revealing clothing, wouldn't we be happy? Whereas when we see her in the street, we just do not know what to do with our eyes and we say to ourselves "why did she put that tight thing on? She's asking to be abused!". So I think the perspective might change depending on which of the either side are we on any particular day

But we, guys, we can do something for ourselves (I believe it's more valuable even to us than to those women) and behave differently. I don't know how long will I manage in my resolve to stop oggling. I hope forever. But this is new to me. I knew I could not watch P, by which I mean any Pixels, M and do anything close to M, but to know that I cannot look how I looked at women for at least 10 years now... it's new.


I wanted to thank everyone who put out practical advice/techniques on this thread. They work

 

[SO Reboot Partner]

I've always been told I walk like I'm going somewhere. Head up and aware of my surroundings.

I'm going to add this one - pick your nose in public if you have caught the gaze of a creep. It has worked for me, just go up there like there's gold nuggets. Pretend to eat if needed. Act off, crazy. Take down license plates if needed. 

 

[Wanttobebetter]

The reason I brought the subject up is because there is such a totally convoluted set of factors that go into it, I may never understand completely.

I'm doing well, I really am. I'm being very observant of my actions, my movements and those of others in my vicinity. I'm getting better and at peace with my behavior and my progress. I respect both genders equally and see not solely gender issues but humanity and society issues.

I keep thinking this whole topic of men and women viewing each other in our everyday lives is so much more complicated than anyone has addressed.

This is not porn. This is not some cruel, consciousless, inhumane, phoney, profit making film production that grabs people out of their everyday lives and turns their minds to mush.

This issue of men and women observing each other in everyday life seems to be a dynamic that is evolving faster than our ability to comprehend it.

The whole thing is hugely frustrating, out of balance, even hypocritical, from both genders.
What the heck am I missing?

 

[Bibbity]

I think the issue is patriarchy.  Both men and women have feminine and masculine parts inside themselves.  The feminine in patriarchy is demeaned and diminished which hurts both men and women.  Any job that is "feminine" is paid poorly and any job that is deamed "masculine" is paid well.  We need to be doing doing doing which is a masculine energy.  Women therefore are very reluctant to be in their feminine.  They are becoming CEO's but not through feminine power but through masculine power.  This leads them drained at the end of the day and unable to step into their feminine.  Sex stops, they stop feeling any sort of pleasure.  The only value they feel they have (both men and women) is their status and earning power.

Men seek feminine power and when they can't get it through the women in their lives they seek it outside through overt sexuality.  Overt sexuality is feminine power and energy but it's a "shadow" aspect of it.  A man really wants authentic feminine energy.  The only thing in patriarchy that is valued about women is their sexual energy.  Men talk consistently about needing female energy when they give up porn.  Men who go to strip clubs talk about female energy.  This is what's missing from the real women out there.  No lap dances but true female sexual energy which radiates and nourishes. 

I have done quite a bit of my own personal research into this (including reading a study on women who work at Hooters) and these are some of my conclusions.  There is so much more!!

 

[Bibbity]

I'm reading a book right now about how to relate to men and it mentions that only emasculated men objectify.  Any feedback on that?  I think porn is the number one way to emasculate men in our society.

 

[Gabe Deem]

@ Bibbity

I'm reading a book right now about how to relate to men and it mentions that only emasculated men objectify.  Any feedback on that?

I think it is a blanket statement that doesn't apply to all men. Selfish, prideful, arrogant men objectify as well. I know because I was exactly that and never felt emasculated. Although, I will say in my opinion, emasculating a man is the fastest way to tune him out of a relationship and make him turn to others that desire him, either emotionally or physically.

 

[chicken]

I totally get what you are saying....it is such a delicate balance, which a lot of men fail to achieve, including myself.  I want to be that man who can admire a beautiful woman, smile and then leave it be.  It is something that I  am working on as I recover from my addiction.  It isn't the fault of the women out there, it is my own.  I love women and the world is a richer place for them.

 

[LTE]

I think the issue is patriarchy.  Both men and women have feminine and masculine parts inside themselves.  The feminine in patriarchy is demeaned and diminished which hurts both men and women.  Any job that is "feminine" is paid poorly and any job that is deamed "masculine" is paid well.  We need to be doing doing doing which is a masculine energy.  Women therefore are very reluctant to be in their feminine.  They are becoming CEO's but not through feminine power but through masculine power.  This leads them drained at the end of the day and unable to step into their feminine.  Sex stops, they stop feeling any sort of pleasure.  The only value they feel they have (both men and women) is their status and earning power.

Men seek feminine power and when they can't get it through the women in their lives they seek it outside through overt sexuality.  Overt sexuality is feminine power and energy but it's a "shadow" aspect of it.  A man really wants authentic feminine energy.  The only thing in patriarchy that is valued about women is their sexual energy.  Men talk consistently about needing female energy when they give up porn.  Men who go to strip clubs talk about female energy.  This is what's missing from the real women out there.  No lap dances but true female sexual energy which radiates and nourishes. 

I have done quite a bit of my own personal research into this (including reading a study on women who work at Hooters) and these are some of my conclusions.  There is so much more!!

I only have gone into strip clubs a handful of times and I have long believed that what men want when they go there is not the obvious. When a man is married and in a loving relationship he is around a woman that trusts him and is not embarrassed to be seen by him, even in the nude. It's not about excitement or lust, it's about trust and the comfort of knowing that you have a devoted mate.

The times I went into strip clubs I was not aroused once I was inside, it was more a matter of seeking comfort, even under ridiculous circumstances with blaring music, etc. After the first few times I found myself talking to the dancers and it wasn't sexy talk, it was fairly mundane. I talked to one girl about her college courses and whether she was able to have a boyfriend. It was a pleasant chat between two people a generation apart in age. For the most part, nothing was said that would have raised eyebrows had the conversation taken place in a very public setting.

I'm reading a book right now about how to relate to men and it mentions that only emasculated men objectify.  Any feedback on that?  I think porn is the number one way to emasculate men in our society.

I think it's overly broad, but not entirely inaccurate. The entire relationship between the genders is out of kilter these days. Many men don't act honorably towards women and many women are justifiably defensive. The competitiveness of the workplace and the high cost of living has hurt both genders.

Let's put it this way, a lot of men are emasculated these days and a lot of women are forced to deal with life without any support or help from the father of their children. This isn't about capability, women are capable of fending for themselves and providing for their young, but life is a lot less stressful when two people cooperate together, provide emotional support and to share the practical tasks involved in life.

 

[Bibbity]

In reading the book I see it as a very widespread problem.  Emasculation is taking place even unbeknownst to the women doing it.  Our media does it consistantly.  The image you see of men is the "bumbling idiot" to be made fun of.  I am guilty of doing it and not even knowing it and mothers do it to their boy children without realizing it. 

Of course its not the whole picture and there are of course unhealthy men out there but I think the vast majority of men are turned into unhealthy men in this way.  I see men as simply wanting to be loved and respected but there is a specific way they need that, something I am only now learning about.  In my relationship for example I was so much in my masculine that there was no room for my husband.  Why would he treat me like a lady when I didn't act like one!  I was doing everything to the point of exhaustion but rather than enlist his help I quietly resented him.  When we started working on our relationship and I started exploring my femininity (an exploration that began because of my husbands objectifying other women ) I began to realize how feminism gave women the impression that they had to be men (and by the way I am a feminist!).  I started taking a step back, being more in my feminine, honoring that part of myself and my husband stepped up in a BIG way.  He is now truly my partner and best friend.  He is my rock!  I made room for him.

Love the input LTE, Chicken and Gabe!

 

[LTE]

In reading the book I see it as a very widespread problem.  Emasculation is taking place even unbeknownst to the women doing it.  Our media does it consistantly.  The image you see of men is the "bumbling idiot" to be made fun of.  I am guilty of doing it and not even knowing it and mothers do it to their boy children without realizing it. 

Of course its not the whole picture and there are of course unhealthy men out there but I think the vast majority of men are turned into unhealthy men in this way.  I see men as simply wanting to be loved and respected but there is a specific way they need that, something I am only now learning about.  In my relationship for example I was so much in my masculine that there was no room for my husband.  Why would he treat me like a lady when I didn't act like one!  I was doing everything to the point of exhaustion but rather than enlist his help I quietly resented him.  When we started working on our relationship and I started exploring my femininity (an exploration that began because of my husbands objectifying other women ) I began to realize how feminism gave women the impression that they had to be men (and by the way I am a feminist!).  I started taking a step back, being more in my feminine, honoring that part of myself and my husband stepped up in a BIG way.  He is now truly my partner and best friend.  He is my rock!  I made room for him.

Love the input LTE, Chicken and Gabe!

That's interesting info. I think that women are great people to be around. They can do anything they want to and are capable of incredible levels of skill and determination. The lady that owns a bit of my heart is a very accomplished person and incredibly independent; I am very happy when she makes room for me and allows me to be part of her life.