Whammy raised to the power whammy - The beginning of the Journey

Phineas 808

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Don't be too concerned about it, akapal! Treat it as part of the overall addiction or habit you want to break.

Heartache Kid is probably right about it being related. It's the lower brain crying out for it's dopamine hit, and reacting to those urges will only feed the overall habit-patterns.

Break the habit-patterns, and end this thing!
 

akpal2

Well-Known Member
Day 3, having a craving to do either watch P or M just to touch. In fact today the urge to M is far more attractive than watching P.

Trying to keep busy and controlling the urges.
 

TheHeartacheKid

Active Member
akpal2 said:
Day 3, having a craving to do either watch P or M just to touch. In fact today the urge to M is far more attractive than watching P.

Trying to keep busy and controlling the urges.

Yeah I have the same thing where the M is more attractive than P sometimes.  But it's just the gateway drug, we know what urges await at the end of just M.  Think of it as your brain bargaining with you, it knows it has mostly lost (or maybe completely!) it's grip on you from a controlling standpoint in regards to P, you've proven that.  So now it's settling for just urging under the guise that you don't need P (which you don't, but again, gateway drug).  Take it as a sign of progress, and if you beat P, you can certainly get beyond this.  You've got this man, stay strong!
 

akpal2

Well-Known Member
Thanks Hak, much appreciate the insight and encouragement. Woke up with a raging MW this morning. Constant horniness in the background. Couldn't help myself and edged a bit to mental fantasy. Stopped it when I realized that this is going to make things worse.

On the upside it seems I can now get hard just to touch, without using any thoughts whatsoever, which is definitely progress.
 

zaraki888

Active Member
Hello akpal2,

How are you doing?

I used to do the same thing just like you described. checking out my erection and then one touch. One touch lead me to another until I have such strong cravings to urges.

For me it always starts with a sexual thought, a fantasy or with touching (sometimes accidental). One touch feels good after abstaining for a while but then I want to touch again. I ended up edging but no orgasm yet. Then the next day or the same day in a couple of hours I do the same but this time I do orgasm. This feels good until it get bored again and thoughts pops up in my mind. Eventually urges becomes stronger and stronger until I go back to p to peek. And it goes on and on until a relapse. For me it always follows the same pattern. Be careful and stay strong! The good thing, for every moment we resist, we get a little stronger in willpower and self control.

Take care






 

zaraki888

Active Member
Man! I had never thought of this...! That's kind of a good idea if it offsets the idea that we 'failed' our reboot or recovery efforts.

I remember back when we had counters (2014-15) that due to lapsing I ended up with two different counters, one for the main PMO, and the other for whatever else I had lapsed to, lol...!

Hello Phineas,
Thank you. :) I never thought about this either until writing to akpal2. haha!
Then you already did this a bit back in 2014-15. I used two counters in the past. One for PMO and the other for MO. But MO always leads to strong urges for me so it didn't worked out.

 
E

escapeandnevercomeback

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Understanding how this addiction works is the key of success. Porn is a button we push to give ourselves a dopamine high. The solution then becomes clear: We must stop pushing the button to get a dopamine high. Complete starvation of the addicted brain is the way to go, until porn dies in our head. It's one simple thing to do (but hard to do at the same time): No dopamine released by porn. It's very important understanding what porn is: Video, pictures and hyper sexual thoughts (porn flashbacks, porn induced fantasies). We can't make flashbacks and fantasies not come to our head for now because it's a symptom of withdrawal but we must not engage with it because this releases dopamine. We can't control porn because the definition of addiction is that the drug is in control. Therefore we must not try to control porn use, we must eradicate it completely. The one who has a different opinion about this is trying to give himself an excuse to avoid the inevitable suffering that comes with completely starving the addicted brain.
 

Phineas 808

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Hello Phineas,
Thank you. :) I never thought about this either until writing to akpal2. haha!
Then you already did this a bit back in 2014-15. I used two counters in the past. One for PMO and the other for MO. But MO always leads to strong urges for me so it didn't worked out.

Hahaha, you're welcome!

That's what my two counters were for, also. But really, at least for me, it was the same thing really. It was all the same habit anyway.

Now, I would really have to assess the situation, what happened, whether or not to reset if it were only MO. But, like yourself, it all serves the same neural pathways for me. The one almost inevitably leads to the other. This is why this time I'm careful to include everything, know that 'all roads lead to PMO', when it comes to all the outer habits that feed into and serve this beast.

P-subs and edging, too, are a big part of it. I've learned that I can mess around with p-subs for a while before actually going to P or PMO, but as a serious rebooter (which is what I want to be), you have to avoid these behaviors at all costs. In other words, my reboot won't mean as much to me if I hit the goal of not PMO'ing, if instead I played around with P-subs the whole time!
 

akpal2

Well-Known Member
3 days ago I had a relapse to p subs (hypersexual thoughts and MO to them). The M just to touch isn't a lot of help to me. Eventually leads to p and mo as you said Phineas.

Today I was on autopilot and binged on porn for some reason. Not sure where it came from but for the first half an hour I couldn't even think about anything else. May have been a trigger due to stress. Just awful. Maybe binged on porn for an hour. Worst relapse in probably 3.5 months. I guess it was all building up to this. My meditation has been missing recently as well so I couldn't probably be mindful either.

Didn't MO but loads of P,. moving from video to video.

Restart. Day 0

Sigh. Ugh, I am so livid with myself.
 
E

escapeandnevercomeback

Guest
akpal2 said:
3 days ago I had a relapse to p subs (hypersexual thoughts and MO to them). The M just to touch isn't a lot of help to me. Eventually leads to p and mo as you said Phineas.

Today I was on autopilot and binged on porn for some reason. Not sure where it came from but for the first half an hour I couldn't even think about anything else. May have been a trigger due to stress. Just awful. Maybe binged on porn for an hour. Worst relapse in probably 3.5 months. I guess it was all building up to this. My meditation has been missing recently as well so I couldn't probably be mindful either.

Didn't MO but loads of P,. moving from video to video.

Restart. Day 0

Sigh. Ugh, I am so livid with myself.

It must've been a build up from days before. Complete starvation is the best way to do it but it's hard. Even though I started with the decision to really do it, it still "surprises" me how difficult it is to resist the call of porn dopamine. Fuck.
 

Phineas 808

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I?ve been there, akpal2, where it feels like ?second nature?- almost as if there were no resistance to it...

3.5 months is awesome time away from a heavy binge!

It sounds like you have a workable list of reasons that may have led up to this moment, and a weakened resolve. Focus a new plan of attack based on these weak points, and go again!

Always change it up, and you will find a rhythm and degree of determination that works for you. Above all, be merciful to yourself! Proud of you for even taking a swing at this thing!
 

akpal2

Well-Known Member
Thanks Phineas and escape for the kind words. Work stress is a definite trigger but it is impossible to eliminate work stress while you are in your working life. Will have to find more effective ways to deal with it. Mindfulness meditation has been extremely helpful to me but I find it extremely challenging to do as well. It's very easy to slack in it and which also lead to declining self control.

Man, this is so hard to continue. But the fight must go on.

So by end of day 0 I forced myself to MO just with touch.

Day 1 was calm and ok.

Day 2 today..let's see how it goes.
 

zaraki888

Active Member
Hello akpal2,

Have you tried to replace the urge with something else? I think urges are just dopamine entering below base line after a high. Humans are biological programmed to avoid pain I red so after a low, we want to feel good again. Have you tried to lift up the dopamine with something else not related to pleasure? Dopamine controls the reward and pleasure centre. I wonder if urges can be killed like this.

Pleasure: p subs, p, mo, eating junk food, alchohol, smoking, watching meaninless youtube cat video's

These give instant gratifications, give
a high but will followed by a low. I wasted time, I feel bad, low again

Reward: exercise, hobby, doing chores, cooking healthy food, working on life goals, helping others, take a walk enjoy the present moment, not watching p keep streak counting

These do not give immidiate instant gratifications or some does. However these give meaning to life, purpose and triggered the reward centre.

Take care
 

zaraki888

Active Member
Hahaha, you're welcome!

That's what my two counters were for, also. But really, at least for me, it was the same thing really. It was all the same habit anyway.

Now, I would really have to assess the situation, what happened, whether or not to reset if it were only MO. But, like yourself, it all serves the same neural pathways for me. The one almost inevitably leads to the other. This is why this time I'm careful to include everything, know that 'all roads lead to PMO', when it comes to all the outer habits that feed into and serve this beast.

P-subs and edging, too, are a big part of it. I've learned that I can mess around with p-subs for a while before actually going to P or PMO, but as a serious rebooter (which is what I want to be), you have to avoid these behaviors at all costs. In other words, my reboot won't mean as much to me if I hit the goal of not PMO'ing, if instead I played around with P-subs the whole time!


Hello Phineas 808,

I was thinking lately. What does it actually mean to be healed from P addiction? Is it just hitting the 90 days? Is it being healed from PIED, PE? Is it being able to have self control and not let the addiction control me anymore? I wonder if the 90 days does not only rewire the dopamine level in the brain, but it also acts as a habit former. Creating strong lasting habits.

Personally thinking about it now in my reboot,  I think MO is a slip up, not a relapse. I think a relapse is if a rebooter falls back to old habits (watching P all day, everyday and can't control himself anymore and gives up, doesn't care anymore)
Sex, MO is human nature not like cocaine. It is what makes us human. We can't deny it and completely remove it I think.

However MO can (it will absolutely) give strong urges to do it again and again followed by P eventually. That is the danger for a rebooter. Especially in the beginning when strong habits are not created yet I believe. Therefore any sexual stimulants needs to be avoided at all cost.

About the reset, I don't know. I hate to be on day 1 again. I will personally fool my brain into thinking nothing happened and add a couple of days on top of the 90 days. I added 45 days to my counter. I did made slip ups this week unfortunate on day 82. Then after I worked on methods how to kill urges. It really is as I wrote in my post, the porn cycle continues till relapse but avoiding cue's, triggers and urges is the easiest to keep going.

Yes I completely agree. P subs is just the mind searching for that dopamine high. Eventually just like William wrote, even just a magazine with a cover of a women can trigger us or even one touch of myself can trigger strong cravings. By the way I orgasm-ed without touch! With just one image photographed in dark and gray color, I saw one art silhouette of a female body that made me orgasm. I tried to stop the ejaculation which I succeed just 10 seconds or so but then that image I saw again in my mind and then I couldn't stop the orgasm anymore.

Therefore we should not watch P or these images and video's stay in our minds. It is not like cocaine which leaves the body. I was lucky I was strong enough not to go to P.







 
E

escapeandnevercomeback

Guest
zaraki888 said:
I was thinking lately. What does it actually mean to be healed from P addiction? Is it just hitting the 90 days? Is it being healed from PIED, PE? Is it being able to have self control and not let the addiction control me anymore? I wonder if the 90 days does not only rewire the dopamine level in the brain, but it also acts as a habit former. Creating strong lasting habits.
I think first thing we want to accomplish is getting rid of the craving for porn and porn flashbacks from our mind. Personally, if I get rid of this, it will be the biggest victory of my life. Not being suffocated by porn anymore. Once I get rid of this, I'm sure the mental chaos that I go through will change drastically or completely. 90 days is just the beginning, we are not done after 90 days we are done after we accomplish the... forever. Never ever going back to porn, this is the dream. All aspects affected by porn will change at that point. And if we could get rid of our porn addiction, I think nothing could fuck us up anymore because porn is a hell of addiction. One day it took me by surprise how difficult it was. I remember I had said to myself: "So porn is an addiction and I'm addicted? No problem, this is easy, it's not heroin, I will start tomorrow and never come back." This was in 2018.

Personally thinking about it now in my reboot,  I think MO is a slip up, not a relapse. I think a relapse is if a rebooter falls back to old habits (watching P all day, everyday and can't control himself anymore and gives up, doesn't care anymore)
Sex, MO is human nature not like cocaine. It is what makes us human. We can't deny it and completely remove it I think.
I don't like to think too much about what's a relapse, counters etc. What I like to say about this is that we first need to understand how this porn addiction works: It's pushing a button (porn) and getting a chemical reaction of dopamine that feels amazing. We are addicted to this dopamine pleasure, porn is the button we have to push to get it. Our goal is to not push the button and this means no watching porn and substitutes and not "playing" porn in our heads because both release big levels of dopamine. This is what I like to think about: Did I make a mistake by giving myself a dopamine high through porn? Okay, I should stop this shit and never repeat it. I don't really care if it's called relapse or not, it's definitely something wrong that I did. The more dopamine I give myself, the biggest the damage I do to myself. I also like to think in term of damage, the longer I do it, the worse it gets but the basic idea is that watching porn, even for a little bit, reinforces that part of the brain and we never get rid of porn from our heads. Porn follows us like a dog we feed (shit example, I couldn't find something else. I like dogs but only the dogs that don't want to bite me). When it comes to "playing porn" in our head, this almost always leads to watching real porn because we get the dopamine going and it's very hard to resist (don't get me started, I did this 2 days ago but I didn't watch porn, I edged to flashbacks. The only good thing in this shit is that I didn't actually watch, if I could call it a good thing. Anyway, in terms of what it does to the brain, I need more data to know the difference between watching and "playing" flashbacks in my head. I guess watching is more powerful because of the way I feel after that. Or could be psychological because I tell myself "Don't worry, you didn't watch porn" and when I watch I am depressed about watching?)

However MO can (it will absolutely) give strong urges to do it again and again followed by P eventually. That is the danger for a rebooter. Especially in the beginning when strong habits are not created yet I believe. Therefore any sexual stimulants needs to be avoided at all cost.

I think it's not good if we masturbate thinking about porn. Doing it without porn... I don't know, I always feel like my brain wants me to do this so it could give me chaser effect and push me hard toward porn. I would only use masturbation (if one can do it without thinking about porn) as the last resort, as eliminating the sexual energy without doing it edging to porn. But I feel that doing something physical should be tried first because what happens to me is that I feel those urges like a lot of energy accumulating inside me. When I'm physically tired, I don't really have urges.

About the reset, I don't know. I hate to be on day 1 again. I will personally fool my brain into thinking nothing happened and add a couple of days on top of the 90 days. I added 45 days to my counter. I did made slip ups this week unfortunate on day 82. Then after I worked on methods how to kill urges. It really is as I wrote in my post, the porn cycle continues till relapse but avoiding cue's, triggers and urges is the easiest to keep going.
I hate to be on day 1 too, that's why I've removed the (actually cool) counter I had in my signature. It's too depressing to say "I was at day 21 now it's day 1." Maybe fooling your brain that nothing big happened could work psychologically, make you feel better and minimize the urge for more medication(edging/PMO)? I don't know what to say, I've never being able to do it myself.

Yes I completely agree. P subs is just the mind searching for that dopamine high. Eventually just like William wrote, even just a magazine with a cover of a women can trigger us or even one touch of myself can trigger strong cravings. By the way I orgasm-ed without touch! With just one image photographed in dark and gray color, I saw one art silhouette of a female body that made me orgasm. I tried to stop the ejaculation which I succeed just 10 seconds or so but then that image I saw again in my mind and then I couldn't stop the orgasm anymore.

Therefore we should not watch P or these images and video's stay in our minds. It is not like cocaine which leaves the body. I was lucky I was strong enough not to go to P.
P subs release that dopamine and of course the addicted brain loves that. They must be avoided. Everything happens in the brain. And yes, I am able to O without jerking my dick too, I've done it many times. In the beginning it was just a curiosity to see if I could do it now I wish I didn't.

Of course seeing something gets stored in the brain and it creates crazy craving. This is the main reason why we shouldn't peek and I know it's very difficult. Sometimes I'm in the train and I get an accidental look at someone's phone with a picture and I can't look away, it's like that dopamine that gets released pushes my brain to keep looking there. Everything happens in the brain and it's very strong, unfortunately.

By the way, I'm happy you've mentioned William. His page on Reboot Nation should be read by everybody, in my opinion. I say things that I've learned from reading him. What I've learned from his is this: The porn dopamine is the problem and we must make an effort not to give ourselves a hit from porn. Porn flashbacks also release dopamine. This is number one thing we should do and second, in my opinion, is eliminating the sexual energy because we don't need it by the end of the day when we get to sleep anyway and this could help with urges.
 

akpal2

Well-Known Member
Thanks guys, for the detailed discussions on my profile. I am he now to stop mental fantasy. Want to stay away from it because it's been artificial and like porn.
 

Phineas 808

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@ akpal2 ~

You're welcome, brother.

Good to see you. That's a good idea, and you can do it. What I used to do (I know it sounds harsh), when a sexual fantasy came into my mind, I would see the 'actor' thrown into hell! Or, sumarily executed! That seemed to work, lol...! Others say, when a fantasy comes, visualize a big red X covering it, and dismiss it.

@ zaraki888 ~

I think you're spot-on about what recovery from P is supposed to look like, lasting habit change.

I can cautiously agree somewhat about MO, as this happened to me back in September (around my birthday, ha!). At the time, I didn't see it as a 'lapse', and kind of dismissed it. This is helpful for me to do, if and when this happens (which hasn't for over 112 days now). If I can keep going, then I will. But, as you also point out, there will be an increased danger of either lapsing full on into P, PMO, or building an unhealthy habit around M.

Of course, too, these above habits come with the unhealthy P-subs and edging, which only flood our receptors with dopamine, which is behind all our problems anyway.

Great discussion!
 

akpal2

Well-Known Member
Phineas, Lol, I like the idea of having the actors thrown into hell for all the trouble they've given me. A big red X is also a good idea.

It is hard to control fantasy, that has been a killer p sub for me, many times even more harmful than P.
 

Phineas 808

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Yes, you can do it! Just remember, you're not judging yourself... but use imagination to fight imagination, and the more abrupt you halt it in mid-flight the better!

And, of course consistency is a must!
 
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