Difference between SOs and Addicts

[Gracie]

I think that as a partner, when I read the men's stories, they are concerned about sexual performance that has been changed by porn viewing.  We women are concerned with the communication that has changed.  I feel that the differences create difficulty in the recovery process.

Speaking for myself, if sex were no longer an option (through illness or injury) I would want to make sure that we could sit down and talk to one another and find enjoyment in things we could share.  And I am sure that as sex went away for us, we all asked our husbands what was wrong.  And typically, they said nothing.  So along we go in this state of "nothing is wrong" but something feels very wrong.  Then we are considered to be not interested in sex because we can't just "turn on".

I wish I would see men asking how can I better communicate with my wife.  How can I make her feel better about herself.  Or men saying, "Boy, I really screwed the pooch this time.  I need to help my wife."  It is centered around, "Will I get a hard on after 90 days?"  " or I really miss masturbating I can't do this.  It becomes discouraging for us here to not see the men concerned about what we women are concerned about.  Then we think our men must be thinking what these men are thinking.  And so the dog chases its tail.  For every time I have said to the men in a forum, reach out to your wife.  Search for and spend as much time with her as you did your porn women and you will be amazed, I have a man that says, "You don't understand, my wife does not like sex."  The thing is I do understand, I became that woman.  My husband did not sleep in bed with me.  He didn't go to bed at the same time.  He didn't talk to me.  Sex was a release, it was not lovemaking.  There was no enjoyment.  And as a result, no I did not want sex.

But when I said, "I don't know if I can get past this. (porn)  I may have to leave.  And went into a deep depression, he started to change.  We talked a lot.  We cried a lot.  and yes I yelled.  I hurt.  It was a pained yelling.  But we talked.  And so we are a lot better.  We take time for each other.  We kiss, we touch.  We put each other first.  I still hurt.  But if not for him realizing that it was not a "dick thing", we would not be here today.

 

[beautifulbreakdown]

THIS ^
Spot on. All of it.

 

[Emerald Blue]

Gracie, you are so correct. When I read some of the men's stories I have also noticed that many seem to be focused on performance and not so much about the negative effects on their relationships. Of course there are some men who want to re-establish intimacy with their wives and girlfriends, and some who are aware of the effects of their porn habit on their partner's self esteem and sexual confidence.

But....in *some* cases quitting porn seems more like some sort of competitive sport that if they "win" by abstaining for a certain period of time they will attain some kind of near-mythical sexual prowess and virility. I've seen some guys asking questions about whether going to a strip club and having a lap dance counts as having a healthy porn-free sexual experience with a "real woman"!! I'm hoping that those guys are the rare exception.

You are absolutely right about the rift in communication that occurs when one partner develops a relationship with porn to the detriment of the relationship. The longer the porn habit continues, the greater the divide. Eventually those little day to day expressions of love stop, like leaving little notes for each other, the compliments dwindle, the admiring glances just don't happen any more, you find yourself spending your free time doing your own thing. All the wife/GF know is that there aren't any signs of sexual interest from her man. She thinks that there must be something wrong with her, that the problem must be her looks or her size or her shape or her age. What's the alternative? We could have an affair or a fling, but we made our marriage vows and we love our men, so that's not an option. So we put and shut up with their porn and put on a brave face and learn to live without intimacy. Even though we are hurting and our partner's behaviour is damaging, we stay.

Over time, the hurt grows deeper and our self esteem crumbles away to nothing. We lose our sex drive because there's no point in having one! Just about every one of us has made our feelings clear about our partner's porn use, we want them to quit, but nothing changes. They just become better at hiding the evidence. If we are "lucky" then the relationship will reach a crisis point and usually it's the partner and not the porn compulsive who screams out "enough is enough!" when she is at breaking point. It's an awful place to find yourself in. I was on the verge of self harming. That's what it took for my man to quit. He was utterly shocked and up until then he had been oblivious to what his habit was doing to me and to our relationship.

To experience sexual ecstasy as part of a deep and loving relationship is the beautiful gift to share. Don't take it for granted, guys. Don't crush those tender petals with pixels and porn. It's a rare gift that needs to be treated with respect and nurtured with real love. Don't trash it.

 

[freshstart@40]

You are right Gracie!
My partner used to be a very sexual person, always initiating sex, open-minded etc.
Over the years, yes there have been other factors along the way, pregnancy, parenthood, illness etc, but gradually she has lost her drive pretty much at the same rate I lost my mojo.
I really want to get things back on track and satisfy her physically & emotionally.
It actually brings tears to my eyes reading the partners forum and trying to imagine what my wife would say
Be strong

 

[Bibbity]

Yes Gracie and Emerald Blue!!  It is a huge reason I left the forums for a time.  It can be very disheartening to see men that are SO disconnected from humanity. But of course the partners suffering always bring me back  My only hope is that the obsession with erections in the beginning leads them through their disentanglement from porn and they find their heart again.  My husband has been porn free for nearly 3 years and this is the journey I have seen him take.  He is engaged again and full of love and life.  He looks back at the man he once was and he cannot believe how much time he wasted being a sub par man.  Porn really does ruin lives.  The mans, the woman's, the kids.  Everyone's if it allowed to fester.

For what it is worth, pregnancy and parenting never made me lose my mojo but it did give me the excuse to not try and be intimate with my husband.  I just couldn't take any more failed erections and rejection. 

 

[aslowturning]

Great points Gracie et al,

I needed to see this!

Thanks!

 

[freshstart@40]

I agree!
I hope a lot of PAs are reading this too.

For what it is worth, pregnancy and parenting never made me lose my mojo but it did give me the excuse to not try and be intimate with my husband.  I just couldn't take any more failed erections and rejection.

Sorry I really hope it didn't come across that I was putting any of this on my wife, I wasn't.
I was still "performing" relatively well back then and we were very close emotionally.
Those feelings of closeness are what I long for

 

[uglyduckling]

Gracie you hit the nail on the proverbial "head"! Your post is spot on and brings to light very big differences.

When my husband was first diagnosed with cancer, I never once thought...oh my god I'll never have sex again. My first thought was...okay doc. What's the next step? How do we get him healthy again? He had esophageal cancer. He no longer has an esophagus. His stomach was pulled up through his body to replace his esophagus. Esophageal cancer is one of those that if not diagnosed in time, you die. It's a silent killer. He barely survived the radiation that he had every day for 6 weeks. He did survive the surgery and was out of the hospital in 6 days. Completely unheard of to leave the hospital that quickly! I slept on a damn couch in his room for 6 days/nights and pushed him every day to walk and do his breathing treatments. I nursed him back to health for months waiting on him hand and foot. Most have an average life span of 5 years after the surgery, IF they are lucky to have survived the surgery in the first place. He had the best doctors, excellent insurance and many that he worked with/for donated sick leave to him so he would continue receiving a pay check while he recovered at home for 6 months. It's been 8 years now since initial diagnosis.

I go into detail about all this because one would think that after an experience like this, it would make one more grateful and happy to be alive. I truly thought that after this experience he would have rejected porn and tried to live a better life. Nope! Didn't happen! And what the hell was I thinking? When the ED continued long after he recovered, I just chalked it up to the radiation/chemo treatments. I mean he told me that he had asked his oncologist about his ED. He was told that it could happen. I stupidly believed him and I was okay with the fact that we would never have sex again. I loved him enough to be okay with that. Why didn't he love me enough to stop?

Last night he looked me square in the eyes and proclaimed his happiness. He said I'm so happy. I really am. Why I ask myself? Because I threatened to leave? Because he knows it's his last chance? Because porn is not an option any longer? I have to be the mean bitch in order to get him to wake up and see that I've been by his side all this time. I feel like I have degraded myself and have become the porn star. Maybe there is no answer for his porn usage other than complete and utter selfishness. I give up trying to figure out why. I start questioning myself and wonder what I did that could make him turn away from me from the very beginning of our relationship. He's so slick and so very charming and has such a way with words. He always fancied himself a word master, saying he could talk paint off a wall. Well he fooled me good...living this double life like he has for so long.

Here I am...angry and hurt again, even after we had a relatively nice weekend. Sometimes this emotional roller coaster is more than I can take. But I shall be grateful for the time we spent together and try to press on...always soldiering on..............

Do we get some kind of medal for this shit? LOL!

 

[Gracie]

UD,  I hear what you are saying.  My husband was very depressed when we got together.  He would tell me and others I saved him from suicide.  And then after years, this.  So yep this is how they think.

All we want is to be loved, cared for, respected, and intimate.  To truly be with someone.  Our husbands. 

 

[Steam rolled]

You hit the nail on the head Gracie.

It's a shame that men have had this porn mentality drilled into their brains since such a young age
And then just carries on into their adult life-  that then becomes our problem.
All I know is this is my husband's last chance to be  The lover he is capable of and not a porn addict.

but the scariest part is  what this younger generation is getting drilled into their head with their smart phone's in there free porn  access that almost chases them down looking for their next victim you can't even open up an email without something that isn't a woman looking all sexy and what not right in your face so tempting for one to click on if you have that mentality which it seems from what I've been reading shamefuly a lot do.
that is why I don't go over to the other forum sections much on here it hurts to read the loss of real men.
and I just hope my husband is the man  he has  been showing me he can be, life slowly gets better but very slow and sometimes it feels l like the pain of loss of trust will never end.
I hate it!!!!

 

[Gracie]

Well husband and I were talking last night.  (I had a bit of a dip).  Me trying to figure out where the wheels came off the bus.  Went over some of the questions I had to which there are no clear answers.  Yet they are questions common to SOs.  I sometimes wonder will I ever rest easy with these questions and no answers? 

As we work through this, which I think will be ongoing for a long time, although not like the original pain, there are little pop up things.  Like why start after 15 years of marriage?  (Yes he used before we got married, but then no) tIf it is something all men do and it is accepted, did it not occur to you it is wrong if you have to hide it?  You had to know it was affecting our marriage if it had to be hidden.  You were choosing TV sex shows instead of your wife.  Do you know what its like to me to see that a screen and your hand are preferable to me? 

What about the 15 years after the first 15 that we have lost?  Just when I knew we would get old together, you started using.  What a spear through my heart.  I am 60.  What if we can't make those years up?  This totally changed your view of our family and the way you treated us.  How did this affect the kids? 

We love each other and are working through this.  But, every once in a while these questions just zip through.  He has done everything he can.  He no longer watches.  (Yes I am sure).  He does not track women.  He does not ogle women.  We have sex often.

Yet as I hear him say, "It is good to see you get back to your old self."  I worry that thing is what caused him to turn away.  I don't like hearing I am becoming the person I was when he was using and I did not know.  "It is good that you go without makeup."  I worry because he complained I did not wear makeup all the time.  (and trust me.  I did not go without much) 

How do I say, "Feeling comfortable, makes me feel very uncomfortable because when I was there, the worst thing in the world was happening to our marriage.  You were thinking about women touching you and you touching them at that time in our marriage."  I don't want comfortable.  Will I ever rest easy again? 

 

[JKR]

From my perspective, the little things and little moments become more important than ever if sex in a relationship has stopped. But there is one issue where communication is very very difficult for men - PIED itself. I can't speak for all men, but I imagine for many (including myself), there is a deep shame, humiliation and emasculation to talk about PIED. Many of these men start avoiding sex because of embarrassment of themselves, mortification of past experiences where it's happened to them, anxiousness about what result will occur. Of course, every situation is different. I have never been married and my longest relationship is two years, so I have not gone through the same kind of experiences as many here. Nor have I entered a relationship from the get go that wasn't already tainted by my broken reward system. So now I don't even try to date anyone, until the problem is resolved.

A man's self esteem in this culture is so tied to our virility and our ability to perform (and emotional stability - be tough, Ford tough). We are expected to be able to be turned on at a moment's notice by almost any receptive woman. So when we can't, it's hard to admit to anyone else. To admit this to a group of guys that don't suffer the same thing would be torture, impossible. I would rather be punched in the face than admit it to my friends, and I really wish that wasn't the case. For me, there is nothing worse I could admit to the world, and it's not because of some high inherent value of sex I've created, but the incredible stigma and feeling of emasculation that can come with it. A man can order a mixed "girly" drink and a high percentage of the population will ridicule them for it. So imagine the difference in magnitude with admitting to PIED.

As for partners, there's a fear that they will lose respect for our manhood, lose attraction to us entirely, and leave, to hear of or be reminded of such a problem, although I do understand it's selfish and the easier way out to not talk about it. Happened to me, despite completely open communication, so it's not an unfounded fear. Women in this forum are probably more empathetic and may place a higher value on the relationship because they're seeking this place out in the first place. But many others won't seek this place out - they're not going to care as much, and if the man can't perform, they're not going to stick around for long. And that feeling is devastating in multiple ways - destruction of the relationship, compounded with emasculation. Please try to keep this all in mind if you think it's just a partner not wanting to be open or communicate (at least for this issue...there is no excuse for others). As for lies or deceit about porn habits, I can't speak to that as I never engaged in that myself. Neglect, that too is an issue, but is an issue in many relationships, including those not impacted by PMO addiction.

 

[Gracie]

Nothing I talked about involved PIED.  In fact like a few other married women, ED was not an issue until after discovery. 

But I do know that ED is like a punch in the gut for men.

 

[Steam rolled]

JKR - THANKS for sharing that it helps to hear how a man feels though it sucks to hear its helpful.

Its funny how men can talk about the videos they busted a nut to and chuckle and share them with each other then shake the very hand they --- ya no!
and that's masculine and cool!!

But its so uncool to actually care for one another and share the damage that trash IS causing to men's lives by the second is something to make fun of!! Thats not a group i would want to even be around really !!
Men need to stop that and wake up!
I would bet if you put a crowd of 5 guys in a group  i would bet AT least 1 can relate if not all now or soon------- but ego wins...SMH!

Men are mean to each other i see it everyday!

 

[Tomte]

It is a little bit of a primitive point of view, I know, but I think after all, men are rivals, escpecially in terms of sex. Even good friends. It is very very difficult to admit any (sexual) weaknesses to other guys. It feels like "If I admit weakness, my status in the group will lower, other guys won't see me as a threat and other females won't see me as worthy".

 

[Gracie]

So then we come to what the women in your life compete with.  Not a warm body, not someone that actually speaks to you.  We compete with pictures, movies, pixels.  You lose your masculinity if you aren't "one of the guys".  You lose it if you don't go with the flow. 

What about our loss of femininity?  You think that having your SO choose a picture over you doesn't suck your feeling of being a woman right out of your body?  What about the loss of trust?  We do not look at naked pictures to be more of a woman.  That is the difference between an SO and a PA. 

 

[Tomte]

Yes, no doubt. I wasn't trying to defend porn addiction. We are not watching porn to be more of a man, same as a gambling addict or an alcoholic don't follow their addiction for that reason. But it still is very difficult to admit to anybody. But its not impossible, and if you really care about your SO, as a porn addict, you should be able to talk about it.

 

[freshstart@40]

I do find the posts by SOs truly fascinating, if not heartbreaking.
As PAs we inflict the damage on our relationship, change our partners behaviour through our own.
Yes we do feel emasculated, shame and humiliated which drives us back to our little bit of security and escapism. P.
It is a vicious circle, one that is hard to a) recognise and b) break.
For everyone of us PAs here with SOs, that think we are doing well, there is a woman who in spite of everything has chosen to stick with us.
They are the real heroes
Be strong everyone

 

[Gracie]

Went back over this thread. A good one I think. Giving it a bump.

 

[GrateClips]

I think that as a partner, when I read the men's stories, they are concerned about sexual performance that has been changed by porn viewing. We women are concerned with the communication that has changed. I feel that the differences create difficulty in the recovery process.

Speaking for myself, if sex were no longer an option (through illness or injury) I would want to make sure that we could sit down and talk to one another and find enjoyment in things we could share. And I am sure that as sex went away for us, we all asked our husbands what was wrong. And typically, they said nothing. So along we go in this state of "nothing is wrong" but something feels very wrong. Then we are considered to be not interested in sex because we can't just "turn on".

I wish I would see men asking how can I better communicate with my wife. How can I make her feel better about herself. Or men saying, "Boy, I really screwed the pooch this time. I need to help my wife." It is centered around, "Will I get a hard on after 90 days?" " or I really miss masturbating I can't do this. It becomes discouraging for us here to not see the men concerned about what we women are concerned about. Then we think our men must be thinking what these men are thinking. And so the dog chases its tail. For every time I have said to the men in a forum, reach out to your wife. Search for and spend as much time with her as you did your porn women and you will be amazed, I have a man that says, "You don't understand, my wife does not like sex." The thing is I do understand, I became that woman. My husband did not sleep in bed with me. He didn't go to bed at the same time. He didn't talk to me. Sex was a release, it was not lovemaking. There was no enjoyment. And as a result, no I did not want sex.

But when I said, "I don't know if I can get past this. (porn) I may have to leave. And went into a deep depression, he started to change. We talked a lot. We cried a lot. and yes I yelled. I hurt. It was a pained yelling. But we talked. And so we are a lot better. We take time for each other. We kiss, we touch. We put each other first. I still hurt. But if not for him realizing that it was not a "dick thing", we would not be here today.

haha a necro'd thread! but a good one.

many of the men here are not just porn addicts they are basically sex addicts. the thrill of a sexual act and then release becomes the be all end all, even as they fail to realize that's not what sex is truly about and the feel good become less and less over time. And that's a bit disheartening because I see a lot of stories of just trying to get to 90 days no PMO.. but without understanding why someone is doing this and the root causes i suspect many will just fall back into PMO in the future.

Since sex is everywhere in advertising, TV/movie, internet, books, this further feeds a sexually addicted man's views that yes its ok that I'm just pursuing sex.

I will tell you i 100% agree w/ your post as I am not only trying to break a PMO habit but more importantly repairing my own attitude and views on sex, and secondly truly seeing my own wife as a partner in life, not someone to have sex with. Which sadly our sex life had devolved too.

Being PMO free for 14 days in conjunction with self awareness of what I had been using PMO for, with the help of knowledge, counseling, etc is like awakening to a new realization as to what a male/female long term relationship is about.

I am journaling in the over 40 forums https://forum.rebootnation.org/index.php?threads/22286/ , and i had a post that actually started off with the thought that I am wrapping myself around the very idea that if i never have sex again, i would still be ok in life and i could still find meaning and value in life. I very hard scary thought for me the way I have been wired for so long but a necessary viewpoint to adopt if i want to truly recover and evolve for the better.

what i realized is that a 90 day reboot is not only just for awakening a man's sex drive the real magic is if a man can grow and see a woman as a wonderful person to talk with, share experience with, and when both are feeling good/excited, have good sex.