Ogling, an ingrained male trait?

[balanced]

That's where your wrong, I am very "for real". Very against women getting a free pass for all of their whimsical desires.  Very tired of being told what I'm doing is somehow wrong because I'm a masculine man. I'm not even married, I don't have time for this crap, I leave it to the "men" who willingly submit to the lashings.

It's stunning that you're not married, being such a masculine man and all...

This forum is for significant others, not significant selves, move along...

 

[Gabe Deem]

@ balanced,

This forum is for significant others, not significant selves, move along...

The snark ends here peeps. While NwaltRed has made some aggressive comments previously, he has apologized and changed his tone, and I expect the same in return.

This thread was started by a rebooter, not a partner. All threads are open to differing opinions and comments, as long as they abide by the forum rules.

 

[NwaltRed]

That's where your wrong, I am very "for real". Very against women getting a free pass for all of their whimsical desires.  Very tired of being told what I'm doing is somehow wrong because I'm a masculine man. I'm not even married, I don't have time for this crap, I leave it to the "men" who willingly submit to the lashings.

It's stunning that you're not married, being such a masculine man and all...

This forum is for significant others, not significant selves, move along...

Well, I'm only 23, there's still time I'm not sure why masculinity needs to be linked with marriage though. I'm not particularly interested in marriage.  Marriage is based in Christianity, since I am not a Christian I wouldn't want to support a faith that I do not believe in.

 

[rebootrapp]

Ok Nwalt, we understand that you think checking out women is a normal function of male life, your pops does it, and he's a swell guy so it must be fine. Right?

I happen to love my dad too, and he does the same thing as yours, and his dad before him. I'm going to break the chain there. And teach my son what is appropriate and not.

I've got a woman to check out as much as I want, she's right here, and way better looking than damn near every other woman I see on a daily basis. Those other women on the street probably have a man/woman that they don't mind being checked out by, but it ain't me, so it's ain't my place to be doing it.

I sincerely hope that upon thoughtful reflection, you would see that that is just a respectful way to treat another PERSON. She's not some walking robot with a pair of tits manufactured by some company to give you a chubby. She's a person with her own friends, parents, spouse, job, dreams, opinions, whatever. It's about respect, man. Respect for the woman, and respect for yourself.

 

[Objectified1]

23.... That explains it. Lol and no, just because someone is attractive does not mean we will have sexual thoughts about them at all. I see attractive men everyday and I simply think. He's nice looking and that's as far as it goes. Just like the next person who may be a women... Same thought. Wow, she's pretty. Do I want to sleep with her or do My thoughts go sexual? Nope. I'd say you have a problem. Good thing your in the right place.

 

[Objectified1]

Well said reboottrap!

 

[NwaltRed]

Ok Nwalt, we understand that you think checking out women is a normal function of male life, your pops does it, and he's a swell guy so it must be fine. Right?

I happen to love my dad too, and he does the same thing as yours, and his dad before him. I'm going to break the chain there. And teach my son what is appropriate and not.

I've got a woman to check out as much as I want, she's right here, and way better looking than damn near every other woman I see on a daily basis. Those other women on the street probably have a man/woman that they don't mind being checked out by, but it ain't me, so it's ain't my place to be doing it.

I sincerely hope that upon thoughtful reflection, you would see that that is just a respectful way to treat another PERSON. She's not some walking robot with a pair of tits manufactured by some company to give you a chubby. She's a person with her own friends, parents, spouse, job, dreams, opinions, whatever. It's about respect, man. Respect for the woman, and respect for yourself.

I think she can be all of those things ;D Whatever works for you though.

 

[NwaltRed]

23.... That explains it. Lol and no, just because someone is attractive does not mean we will have sexual thoughts about them at all. I see attractive men everyday and I simply think. He's nice looking and that's as far as it goes. Just like the next person who may be a women... Same thought. Wow, she's pretty. Do I want to sleep with her or do My thoughts go sexual? Nope. I'd say you have a problem. Good thing your in the right place.

I see, your making the assumption that the rationality of my arguments is linked to my age right? Age=Wisdom hasn't always been my experience, though perhaps it is true as a general rule/stereotype. Are you sure it's not just easier to judge me on my age rather than formulating a well reasoned response to my thoughts? As I said, I am happy to play nice on this forum, but only if the same courtesy is reciprocated.

If I complete my 30 days and I don't have a desire to sleep with attractive women, then I might as well just go back to porn
I'm sorry but I would suggest that your ideals of what men are thinking are very much in the minority, if I had a quarter for every young, unmarried man that completed his reboot with the goal of having sex with women I'd build a palace out of quarters 
Sex was on my mind before porn, and sex will be on my mind long after porn. 

That's not to say that we aren't looking for good personality traits as men. I wouldn't sleep with the hottest woman on earth if she was a horrible person.

The only problem I seem to have is being a man, in a world more and more controlled by women, every single day

 

[rebootrapp]

I can assure you that being a man has nothing to do with scoping out chicks and beating your dick to porno vids.

I usually think of integrity, strength, and respect and being the three key traits of "manliness."

Do you disagree? And if not, please enlighten me how craning your neck for every woman you see fits with that idea?

 

[jjhan12]

23.... That explains it. Lol and no, just because someone is attractive does not mean we will have sexual thoughts about them at all. I see attractive men everyday and I simply think. He's nice looking and that's as far as it goes. Just like the next person who may be a women... Same thought. Wow, she's pretty. Do I want to sleep with her or do My thoughts go sexual? Nope. I'd say you have a problem. Good thing your in the right place.

This applies to me also.
Before reboot i was running on hypersexual thoughts that made me feel really bad. I just could not handle them.
Now there is a balance, my thougts will not go sexual straight away or not at all and i'm happy with this.

I can understand bigger picture from NwaltRed (which is not related on porn addiction or ogling at all) and this is total offtopic.
We live in modern world but i think that there are some basics that won't go away. I may sound like a cave man, but i think that meaning of life is life itself and continuity of life. For that point of view for men (genes) it's important to find many women as possible to have sex with (you remember coolidge effect from ybop) and for women (genes) is important to find men which can provide safety and protection (or other traits that will help) and whose offspring will most likely to survive.

 

[Trustandnewbeginnings]

I may sound like a cave man, but i think that meaning of life is life itself and continuity of life. For that point of view for men (genes) it's important to find many women as possible to have sex with (you remember coolidge effect from ybop) and for women (genes) is important to find men which can provide safety and protection (or other traits that will help) and whose offspring will most likely to survive.

You have to remember here that we are not the chickens of the Coolidge effect. Men may have a similar primitive biological response but humans also have the ability to fall in love. This is what insures continued nurturing of the offspring in a family with two parents for a much longer period than seen in most animals. Scientists believe we developed this way to fight off rivals and ensure the survival of our offspring, putting a greater investment into fewer offspring rather than pumping out a ton and hoping for survival by flooding the ecosystem with them as seen in more primitive animals like frogs and turtles. Humans can't do this because we take far longer to reach maturity, it takes much longer because our advanced brains take longer to develop. If a cave man were to take the approach of inseminating a large number of women, their unprotected, helpless offspring likely would have been killed by rivals while dad was off spreading himself too thin. The man that stayed with his family had a greater chance of passing his genetic information on to future generations. Now this may not be necessary in modern times for survival, but surely a man's  offspring will have a better chance at life if they focus all their energy on fewer of them.

 

[hoopvol]

Hi everyone,

When I read the latest posts on this thread, I feel a bit sad. I'm sure this is not what Bob had in mind, when he started it. Most people here on this section of the forum are in longterm relationships and still are in these relationships, because there is so much to fight for. We fight together with our SO's to overcome all of this and recover from the pain and grief PA has caused us. This is something we do together: men an women. We come here for support; both to give and to receive support. It's always good to welcome rebooters on this side of the forum, to get insight and input, we otherwise wouldn't get.
But again: we fight this thing together; It's not about men vs women.

 

[NwaltRed]

I may sound like a cave man, but i think that meaning of life is life itself and continuity of life. For that point of view for men (genes) it's important to find many women as possible to have sex with (you remember coolidge effect from ybop) and for women (genes) is important to find men which can provide safety and protection (or other traits that will help) and whose offspring will most likely to survive.

You have to remember here that we are not the chickens of the Coolidge effect. Men may have a similar primitive biological response but humans also have the ability to fall in love. This is what insures continued nurturing of the offspring in a family with two parents for a much longer period than seen in most animals. Scientists believe we developed this way to fight off rivals and ensure the survival of our offspring, putting a greater investment into fewer offspring rather than pumping out a ton and hoping for survival by flooding the ecosystem with them as seen in more primitive animals like frogs and turtles. Humans can't do this because we take far longer to reach maturity, it takes much longer because our advanced brains take longer to develop. If a cave man were to take the approach of inseminating a large number of women, their unprotected, helpless offspring likely would have been killed by rivals while dad was off spreading himself too thin. The man that stayed with his family had a greater chance of passing his genetic information on to future generations. Now this may not be necessary in modern times for survival, but surely a man's  offspring will have a better chance at life if they focus all their energy on fewer of them.

Dad wasn't "off" doing anything other than hunting for food. Generally the women would remain in one group with the father providing for them.

 

[NwaltRed]

I can assure you that being a man has nothing to do with scoping out chicks and beating your dick to porno vids.

I usually think of integrity, strength, and respect and being the three key traits of "manliness."

Do you disagree? And if not, please enlighten me how craning your neck for every woman you see fits with that idea?

So those are my only options are they? The 2 extremes you provide in your strawman? A life of celibacy because "I don't need no woman" while honing my manly traits of integrity strength and respect. Or beating my dick to porno vids while craning my neck for every woman who walks by :

Well how about I dodge this poorly constructed verbal trap (you forgot to cover the hole with the leaves ;D ) and offer an alternative?
How about I don't beat my dick to porn and crane my neck for every woman I meet while also honing the traits of integrity, strength and respect? How about I do all of that while also appreciating women for their sexuality however I choose to do so, while respecting physical boundaries of course. 

 

[Gracie]

Is the horse dead yet?

NwaltRed can continue his life as he sees fit.  If it is ogling every woman, then that is his life.  None of us, man or woman, is going to change his viewpoint.  He likes where his brain is at in regard to this topic.  He may change as he encounters life situations in the future or he may not.

Those of us in long term relationships understand the harm that has been done to us.  The women from their pain of living with a PA.  The men from realizing how this addiction has affected them both mentally and physically.  In our relationships, we are striving for us all to heal and striving to do it together.

NwaltRed does not share our view on ogling.  That's it end of discussion. 

 

[NwaltRed]

Hi everyone,

When I read the latest posts on this thread, I feel a bit sad. I'm sure this is not what Bob had in mind, when he started it. Most people here on this section of the forum are in longterm relationships and still are in these relationships, because there is so much to fight for. We fight together with our SO's to overcome all of this and recover from the pain and grief PA has caused us. This is something we do together: men an women. We come here for support; both to give and to receive support. It's always good to welcome rebooters on this side of the forum, to get insight and input, we otherwise wouldn't get.
But again: we fight this thing together; It's not about men vs women.

True enough, I support all of the loving partners standing by their so's in this battle against porn. That doesn't mean I won't voice an opinion though. If I suspect that some partners may have somewhat unrealistic expectations of what recovery means to men or women and they don't seem to have the best interests of their partner in mind, should I just stay silent?

You never know, it could just be a case of tough love/you'll thank me later for not expecting all men to be something they are not.

 

[NwaltRed]

Is the horse dead yet?

NwaltRed can continue his life as he sees fit.  If it is ogling every woman, then that is his life.  None of us, man or woman, is going to change his viewpoint.  He likes where his brain is at in regard to this topic.  He may change as he encounters life situations in the future or he may not.

Those of us in long term relationships understand the harm that has been done to us.  The women from their pain of living with a PA.  The men from realizing how this addiction has affected them both mentally and physically.  In our relationships, we are striving for us all to heal and striving to do it together.

NwaltRed does not share our view on ogling.  That's it end of discussion.

"Our view". Did I stumble into a hive mind ???
I do not like where my brain is at in regards to the viewing of violent pornography/bdsm. I certainly didn't mind where my brain was at when I was able to simply appreciate a woman sexually without compromising my relative morality.

 

[NwaltRed]

In the spirit of honesty, I thought perhaps I owe some people here an explanation and an apology for my obvious fluctuating between cold/distant and empathetic emotional states (probably do to porn).

In recent years I have developed a strong distrust of women. Right now that seems to culminate in my "need" to start arguments where they aren't necessary. This of course just leads to solidifying that distrust.

So yes I get it, the women here were just trying to say that ogling a woman may not be the best way to find the types of women I am looking for.

For some reason I have this persistent image ingrained of nagging wives that are just bitter because their husbands find other women sexually attractive, but that isn't really fair.

I do believe that there are differences between men and women and the way we think in general, but there is likely a lot of overlap/common ground, and who's to say if much of that difference is biological or cultural.

So I guess this is me apologizing the only way I know how, before I suddenly fluctuate back to the cold/bitterness that may be a result of excessive porn use. I am sorry, I am trying to learn to trust women again because I know that men and women are in this together.

It is difficult for me to process all of the various sources of information from groups like feminists, men's rights activists, and just the media in general and come to some sort of rational conclusion. I currently feel that women are often the victims of crimes that we as a society have difficulty eradicating and prosecuting.

Certainly the current legal framework creates a lot of frustration for women who are the victims of sexual assault but are not able to provide sufficient proof. I just do not currently know of an alternative that would work better without infringing on the rights of innocent people? I want to believe that women aren't willing to create an environment where false rape allegations would occur unchecked to ensure all victims get justice?

That is just one example of course, I understand that women are facing this injustice and I have all the empathy in the world for them, but I don't think we can ignore the rights of one gender because the other gender faces a tougher life. If we do then how long before the tables would be turned and equal opportunity between genders is lost again? (for men this time rather than women)

Again I apologize for not opening up in a more reasonable manner before now. I'm not sure how much longer this current empathetic/reasonable mood will last but I will make every effort to stay off these forums when I am in a cold state of mind.
I just want to be able to trust women again and I am working through all of this with my therapist.

The biggest breakthrough is learning to see women as people, rather than manipulators with some sort of agenda.
There are of course good honest people and not so good liars, and they can be men or women, and more likely than not the dishonest people are fairly evenly distributed among the genders.

In any case, much love for everyone here, I hope you get your partners back.
I need a break from the internet as well if I'm going to ditch this porn addiction.

 

[hoopvol]

Hi NwaltRed,

Thank you so much for your latest post in this thread!! If you were here in front of me now, I would give you a big motherly hug!! It takes a lot of courage to apologize like this..Thank you for that. Do you know what caused your distrust of women? Maybe you could go back to the source and (with some help) recover from anything that happened to you in the past?
I hope you'll learn very soon, that there are a lot of women and girls out there, that aren't bitches with a hidden agenda. I only hope you will recognize her, when you meet her. Best of luck to you!!

 

[NwaltRed]

Hi NwaltRed,

Thank you so much for your latest post in this thread!! If you were here in front of me now, I would give you a big motherly hug!! It takes a lot of courage to apologize like this..Thank you for that. Do you know what caused your distrust of women? Maybe you could go back to the source and (with some help) recover from anything that happened to you in the past?
I hope you'll learn very soon, that there are a lot of women and girls out there, that aren't bitches with a hidden agenda. I only hope you will recognize her, when you meet her. Best of luck to you!!

I need to start somewhere, and it is clear that only honesty and understanding will bring honesty and understanding in return.
I appreciate your kind words.

As far as what has caused my distrust of women, it could be many things. From spending the first year of my life without a mom and not getting adopted until age 5. It could be due to the strained relationship of my adoptive parents, one living with depression and the other losing patience with the depression.

In any case I have an understanding of what a relationship between a man and a woman can be, I have proof that a woman will stick by someone through anything just as an equally caring man would. My grandparents were a prime example of the typical nuclear family at it's best. They cared for each other more than I could put into words. When my grandfather spent the last few years with Alzheimers disease, my grandmother refused to stop caring for him or give him up to a nursing home, even as all signs of the person he was were slipping away.

Clearly I do have a baseline for what a loving relationship can be, but I also have a lot of evidence to suggest that this kind of relationship is becoming increasingly rare and difficult to find in the modern world, and I'm still trying to work out the why and how.