Ogling, an ingrained male trait?

jjhan12

Member
What about this. In my work there is a woman which i found really beautiful. It's not about her body parts but the whole person. Something in her presence makes me feel happy and alive. It's not crush or like that, i don't even know her or talked much with her. Anyway i could look her at ages...
 
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NwaltRed

Guest
Johan said:
What about this. In my work there is a woman which i found really beautiful. It's not about her body parts but the whole person. Something in her presence makes me feel happy and alive. It's not crush or like that, i don't even know her or talked much with her. Anyway i could look her at ages...

Yeah, that's what a lot of folks here are probably missing. We don't just see a pair of floating tits. The entire female form is beautiful to us. We could get into whether it is cultural or not, but there is also a lot of evidence biologically to suggest that it is in a man's best interest to be more aware of visual cues than women.

In any case, you're not doing anything wrong. The feminists can't throw you behind bars for it (yet) ;D
There is also a lot of evidence to suggest that attractive men are "just looking" while unattractive men are "ogling" ::)

In any case I've concluded that this forum is a terribly toxic environment for a man to attempt any sort of recovery from porn addiction, oh well, back to yourbrainrebalanced ;)
 

Objectified1

Active Member
Looking and noticing that a women is attractive is not ogling and I didn't read any comments that insinuated as such. I'm sure there are people out there that are super sensitive to men looking at them due to the odd bad mad who ogles them. You should be able to look at a women (attractive or not) without more distraction then looking at a good looking man. Gay or not you can tell if a man is in shape or attractive. You obviously have no sexual thoughts about it if your not gay and that's normal. It should be just as normal to see an attractive women and continue on with your day like it's no big deal. Double taking, staring long, noticing the body parts AND ONLY the body parts, sexual thoughts, should not be a common occurance. Of course no one is perfect and I'm sure it may happen from time to time.... But the more often it happens.....
 

bob

Respected Member
Hey guys, don't take offense. If you see someone who is attractive and you appreciate her beauty, that's fine. When you spend so much time looking that she  feels uncomfortable, that's not OK. On the other end, if you know you aren't ogling then don't worry, this discussion isn't about you. It doesn't mean a problem doesn't exist. It's just not about you.

But, if you are ogling; accept the fact and make amends to change your behavior.

Loleekins said:
The men who ogle me, I find it is done in a predatory manner. There's very little in the way of appreciation.

I would say most women (at one time or another) have had encounters with men where they feel uncomfortable. The male spends too much time looking at them or their bodies and they didn't want or encourage this attention.


That's not cool.


Now; back to the original question.

I think there is something in males that make them predisposed to this behavior. As a small boy I happened to look up while a woman in a skirt walked above me. It was as if time stood still. That brief look up kicked in a reaction for which I was unprepared. I stared intently until she past out of view.

What that a normal male trait? I believe it was. Should this behavior be encouraged? In the past I believe it has been encouraged. Maybe not overtly but it none the less, has been encouraged. Not the peering up women's skirts but the extended stare of a woman's body as she passes.Young males need to know that ogling is not appreciated by women.

How is this behavior changed? Reactions by fathers, brothers, coaches, athletes, bosses, other adult males should evolve into teachable moments. When that same attractive female passes by, and the stares or comments are made, the adult should say, "hey, that's not acceptable."

It may be a trait but it doesn't have to be rewarded or encouraged.

 
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NwaltRed

Guest
bob said:
Hey guys, don't take offense. If you see someone who is attractive and you appreciate her beauty, that's fine. When you spend so much time looking that she  feels uncomfortable, that's not OK. On the other end, if you know you aren't ogling then don't worry, this discussion isn't about you. It doesn't mean a problem doesn't exist. It's just not about you.

But, if you are ogling; accept the fact and make amends to change your behavior.

Loleekins said:
The men who ogle me, I find it is done in a predatory manner. There's very little in the way of appreciation.

I would say most women (at one time or another) have had encounters with men where they feel uncomfortable. The male spends too much time looking at them or their bodies and they didn't want or encourage this attention.


That's not cool.


Now; back to the original question.

I think there is something in males that make them predisposed to this behavior. As a small boy I happened to look up while a woman in a skirt walked above me. It was as if time stood still. That brief look up kicked in a reaction for which I was unprepared. I stared intently until she past out of view.

What that a normal male trait? I believe it was. Should this behavior be encouraged? In the past I believe it has been encouraged. Maybe not overtly but it none the less, has been encouraged. Not the peering up women's skirts but the extended stare of a woman's body as she passes.Young males need to know that ogling is not appreciated by women.

How is this behavior changed? Reactions by fathers, brothers, coaches, athletes, bosses, other adult males should evolve into teachable moments. When that same attractive female passes by, and the stares or comments are made, the adult should say, "hey, that's not acceptable."

It may be a trait but it doesn't have to be rewarded or encouraged.

Jesus, are you kidding me with this? At least objectified makes some attempt to back peddle, you just keep on trucking don't you? Do tell why is it wrong for anyone to look at someone. Would you like us to put laws in place to prevent this "horrible crime"?

No I don't randomly stare at tits and ass all day long, partly because I'd need to put up with the fallout from the angry radfems, and also because I have better things to do. That doesn't mean that's it's wrong for someone to look at anyone else any way they bloody well please.

Taking offense for the way someone looks at you is your personal problem, the only one who can determine if it is "okay" is you, and the only one responsible for dealing with it is YOU! If you don't like the way a man is looking at your tits, you are free to go elsewhere or you are welcome to comment on it and embarrass him if the attention bothers you.

This discussion is pointless because the only "solution" to the "problem" would be excessive oppression of personal freedoms.

Perhaps you can provide the raw data though if you really want to make a change. Do tell, what percentage of women appreciate the "male gaze" vs those who don't? I imagine there is quite a divide and quite a difference of opinion as to what constitutes "predatory ogling" among both men and women.

There is nothing to this debate, it always ends the same way:
"NwaltRed, you shouldn't stare at tits, it makes people uncomfortable"
"But I like tits, and many big titted women seem to enjoy the attention."
It's a loop, you do you and I'll do me (and the large breasted women ;) )

To the second part of your post, this just reveals your insecurity as a man.
I would agree that recognition of physical traits is a behavior more common among men, with strong biological imperatives no less.
You seem to be to busy shunning your masculinity to recognize this.

I swear the feminists don't even need to do any work, "men" like you are happy to hand them everything they demand.
 
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NwaltRed

Guest
Don't get me wrong, I love women, I really do. I just have trouble understanding why everything a man does to express interest or show love is wrong and everything a woman does is "the right way".

Take my pops for example, he's one of those guys who really gets into checking women out. I mean we can be driving down the road and all of a sudden a cute babe walks by and immediately his attention is drawn away from driving (hasn't had an accident in his entire life :D) and his eyes follow the woman until he can't physically turn his head any further. Or we could be chilling at the beach and he can spend the whole time just watching the babes go by.

So some of you would probably think he's an asshole, but nothing could be further from the truth. He's one of the nicest people you could ever meet, would start a friendly conversation with anyone ("hey beautiful" seems to work well for him with most of  the ladies) and he would help anyone out with just about anything.
He's also happily married with a woman who understands that it is okay to be physically attracted to other men and women in a marriage.

Of course I look up to my dad and appreciate the no nonsense masculinity that works for him.
So I don't mean to come off as rude here, but if your going to judge me because I have an appreciation of the female form and either silently "ogle" that form or voice what I consider a complement eg. "hey beautiful" then that's just fine.

I'm not going to change that behavior for anyone though because to me there is more to be concerned about in this life than those who take offense at my idea of a compliment.  I mean there are people who have it really rough in this world, with real problems. Obviously physical assault is an entirely different can of worms and my sympathies to the women (and men) that go through that, but unless I'm causing a woman harm in some way I'm not going to be overly concerned with her reaction to my visual enjoyment of her body. In fact, it would be quite nice if she reciprocated that enjoyment of my own body :)
 

Objectified1

Active Member
Your mistaken lol. I didn't in any way back paddle, as you put it. Back paddling is going back on things you previously said. I didn't change my mind or go back on anything I said.
 
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NwaltRed

Guest
Objectified1 said:
Looking and noticing that a women is attractive is not ogling and I didn't read any comments that insinuated as such. I'm sure there are people out there that are super sensitive to men looking at them due to the odd bad mad who ogles them. You should be able to look at a women (attractive or not) without more distraction then looking at a good looking man. Gay or not you can tell if a man is in shape or attractive. You obviously have no sexual thoughts about it if your not gay and that's normal. It should be just as normal to see an attractive women and continue on with your day like it's no big deal. Double taking, staring long, noticing the body parts AND ONLY the body parts, sexual thoughts, should not be a common occurance. Of course no one is perfect and I'm sure it may happen from time to time.... But the more often it happens.....

Perhaps not back pedaling per say, just a very confusing/conflicting story. When we see a person (male or female) and we find them attractive, is that not sexual attraction? We don't know who they are as a person, we don't know anything beyond their physical attractiveness. The physical sexual attraction is what sparks our interest as men and often leads to a conversation to get to know the person inside.

Personally I don't really judge what a person is thinking when they see an attractive woman (or man). As I said, I don't see the harm it causes beyond someone taking offense (a personal problem).

In any case I think this "objectification" banter has gone on for to long. We are all sexual objects, and we are people as well, you won't find the man who looks past your physical traits and into your soul without that initial spark of sexual attraction.

It is clear that men and women are looking for different things visually, I wouldn't say either is wrong.
Whereas a woman might be looking for a confident gait and nice clothing/good grooming, a man might be looking for wide hips, large breasts etc. Neither tells us much about who the person actually is.

I can see why it is difficult for men and women to see if from the differing perspective. You won't catch me saying "oh it's only okay if she doesn't size up his wealth/value of his clothing for too long", everyone is different, and different men want different types of women.

This kind of reminds me of the "teach men not to rape" movement. It's pretty clear that rape is not tolerated in western society, it's become more of a "teach men to be more like women" movement. It's rather sad to see masculinity deteriorating as it is in western society. I do wonder where the masculine men will be if they are needed to defend the west in the future. Will they have the nerve to stand up as men? Will there be anything left worth defending? 
 

Emerald Blue

Well-Known Member
This section of the forum is for partners of porn addicts whose lives and relationships have been adversely impacted by our partners' behaviors. We welcome all partners, regardless of whether they are women or men, whether they are in a heterosexual relationship or a same sex relationship. However, we seem to be almost exclusively an online community of women who are in long term committed relationships with male porn addicts, so this is the perspective you are going to find here.

It is very important that this section of the forum allows women to express their feelings and views, regardless of how "unladylike" they may seem. We are talking about real life and real world experiences here. Porn addiction impacts hugely not only on our relationships with a partner but also on our self esteem and self image. It's going to be inevitable that some women are going to air some very distressing feelings and express opinions which may be difficult for some people to accept without judgement or reaction. Nevertheless, this section of the forum exists for women to support other women going through very similar experiences and it is important that we have this space to express ourselves without being called out on our personal views by people who are here to challenge and not offer support. Our views may occasionally question the perceived wisdoms about male/female relationships and roles. We are not just wives and girlfriends, but we are women who are out there participating in the real world and our life experience is going to shape our views about gender and sexuality, and indeed pornography and the proliferation of sexualised imagery.

There is no doubt that the internet has brought unlimited access to every type of pornography at no additional cost and at any time, day or night. We have also witnessed increasingly sexualised imagery in popular entertainment and advertising. We also see the phenomenon of so-called "revenge porn" and "slut shaming" affecting ordinary women - one of many different issues affecting real women in the real world since the advent of the internet and social media. The internet and its constant delivery of sexualised media is an increasing influence on how men view women, and how women view themselves.

We have entire industries that make billions out of women trying to appeal to the "male gaze" from the diet industry, fashion, the beauty industry and even cosmetic surgery. Advertising aimed at women works on the subliminal but constant message of "you're not good enough". We're told we're too fat, we're too old and we're too out-of-date. With the increasing consumption of porngraphy, every part of our body is subject to scrutiny because there are even "standards" about what a woman's genitalia should look like, which means that just about every adult woman isn't good enough as nature intended because they dared to grow up and reach sexual maturity. So just who defines a woman's sexuality? The porn industry with it's plastic Barbie doll standards? This is the world that women are living in today and it's not a happy place.

Whether we like it or not, the men we are in long term relationships have been influenced by the proliferation of free porn and sexualised imagery to the extent of developing an addictive like behavior. We are also responding not only to the imagery and what it tells us about ourselves and our role as women, but also to the men in our lives who have become habituated to the pornographic objectification of women which is often contradictory to their own values.

As discussed in previous posts, most women have experience of unwanted sexual attention. Many women have experienced sexual assault or being touched inappropriately and without consent, in addition to being watched or followed. These are not isolated incidents experienced by the very few but experiences which almost every woman will have encountered many times since they have reached puberty.

There's a very fine line between an admiring glance and a man who looks too long and inappropriately. Even when it's not intended to be threatening, it's still an invasion of our right to go about our daily business without being subject to scrutiny and intrusion. Porn is all about objectification and men who are habituated to watching porn are training themselves to scan and scrutinise women in a way that is not welcome when were are at the grocery store or in a restaurant or wherever. It's a question of where do you draw the line between admiration or appreciation and lewdness, and that seems to be very much in the mind of the beholder, but seems to be more so in men with a porn addiction - and most of us here are married to or living with a porn addict, with all the challenges it brings to a relationship.

Make no mistake. As a heterosexual woman I know what a handsome man looks like and I appreciate a fine masculine physique. I can do this without necessarily thinking of sex. I can also appreciate female beauty in a way that has nothing to do with sex. I can go to the ballet and appreciate the aesthetic element of the dance and the dancers, and I'm sure there are men who can do that too. It IS possible to appreciate the human form without sexualising it.

This kind of reminds me of the "teach men not to rape" movement. It's pretty clear that rape is not tolerated in western society, it's become more of a "teach men to be more like women" movement. It's rather sad to see masculinity deteriorating as it is in western society. I do wonder where the masculine men will be if they are needed to defend the west in the future. Will they have the nerve to stand up as men? Will there be anything left worth defending?

Well, men sitting in front of a computer screen mindlessly masturbating and playing computer games whilst stuffing their faces with pizza and swilling beer isn't going to save the world, is it? Or turn them into better human beings that women would actually want to share their time with.
 

balanced

Active Member
NwaltRed said:
Take my pops for example, he's one of those guys who really gets into checking women out. I mean we can be driving down the road and all of a sudden a cute babe walks by and immediately his attention is drawn away from driving (hasn't had an accident in his entire life :D) and his eyes follow the woman until he can't physically turn his head any further. Or we could be chilling at the beach and he can spend the whole time just watching the babes go by.

So some of you would probably think he's an asshole, but nothing could be further from the truth. He's one of the nicest people you could ever meet, would start a friendly conversation with anyone ("hey beautiful" seems to work well for him with most of  the ladies) and he would help anyone out with just about anything.
He's also happily married with a woman who understands that it is okay to be physically attracted to other men and women in a marriage.

Your pops is an ogler, and just because you are an adoring son doesn't make it acceptable.
 

jjhan12

Member
I think that this behavior cames from biology, because i was checking out girls in highschool before i had ever seen a porn movie or a naked woman. This behavior just came out of nowhere and it made me wan't to know girls better.
 

Emerald Blue

Well-Known Member
Johan said:
I think that this behavior cames from biology, because i was checking out girls in highschool before i had ever seen a porn movie or a naked woman. This behavior just came out of nowhere and it made me wan't to know girls better.

We aren't here to argue about whether men look at women, or boys look at girls. The issue is how far do you draw the line between what is respectful and what is intrusive, and whether the consumption of pornography normalises an intrusive degree of objectification. There are no "correct" answers but there is a vast gray area between what individuals consider to be offensive, what is mildly intrusive and what is respectful. These are also dependent on cultural norms, but with the proliferation of internet pornography and sexualised imagery those cultural norms have shifted over the past 10-20 years. We could flog this one to death and we probably already have. We all have different views and experiences. Women have a different perspective of course, and we probably differ in what we find acceptable and what we find offensive or threatening.

On the subject of women looking at men, I have already seen a few posts back on what one man believes we look at. Not in my case. I don't care about a man's suit or his wallet or his car. I like handsome men with athletic physiques, but it's not necessarily sexual attraction. Do men honestly believe we can overlook some guy's beer gut overhanging his waistband?! "Oh but look at his sports car!" No. I don't think so! All this "women aren't visual" is bullcrap. I know my husband isn't physically perfect. It's not important to me. I'm not disappointed because his body has changed over the years. In my eyes he's beautiful, and yes, I do like looking at him. I always have done.

I think we've overdone this subject. I think it has been taken in a direction that is not necessarily helpful. Once the topic is no longer positive and supportive, and begins to create negativity and hostility, I think it's time to draw a line under it and move on.
 
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NwaltRed

Guest
That's a lot of words to say you don't wish to hear any dissenting opinions  ???
Yes there are plenty if men out there treating women like crap, not much I can singularly do about it, I don't go around saying revenge porn and assault are okay and neither does the law.

Chicken or egg? Are men overly sensitive to appearances of women or are women overly sensitive to their own appearances? Personally I couldn't care less about how much makeup a woman cakes on as it does so very little for natural beauty.

I can see that you're angling to have me silenced for my dissenting opinions,  and who knows you might succeed. You and others didn't seem to have a problem offering your dissenting opinions without filter when I had my last account on rn.

I'll be me, you be you. I'm not a fan of beer personally, nothing wrong with video games and pizza though, certainly more entertaining than the average female company these days :)
 

Emerald Blue

Well-Known Member
If you don't like the way a man is looking at your tits, you are free to go elsewhere or you are welcome to comment on it and embarrass him if the attention bothers you.

This discussion is pointless because the only "solution" to the "problem" would be excessive oppression of personal freedoms.

I have to comment here. As women, we should not have to "go elsewhere" if a man is looking at us in a sexually intrusive manner. Where is our "freedom" in this situation? Why should we change our behavior or where we go? That's not freedom, that's subjugation. I suggest that if you don't like women objecting to you looking at their tits, then just STFU and don't look. Or follow your own advice and "go elsewhere". Let us enjoy OUR freedoms.

But you know, this guy ain't for real. He thinks he's clever and witty and smart, and it's all a big laugh.

But he's the joke and we can laugh at him. Not that he's THAT funny but we can at least laugh at his jokes out of pity.
 

bob

Respected Member
Well said Emerald,

Thank you for your clear and concise comments. I applaud your clear head and thoughtful response.

NwaltRed said:
In any case I've concluded that this forum is a terribly toxic environment for a man to attempt any sort of recovery from porn addiction, oh well, back to yourbrainrebalanced ;)

NwaltRed, I encourage you should take your own advice.
 
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NwaltRed

Guest
Emerald Blue said:
If you don't like the way a man is looking at your tits, you are free to go elsewhere or you are welcome to comment on it and embarrass him if the attention bothers you.

This discussion is pointless because the only "solution" to the "problem" would be excessive oppression of personal freedoms.

I have to comment here. As women, we should not have to "go elsewhere" if a man is looking at us in a sexually intrusive manner. Where is our "freedom" in this situation? Why should we change our behavior or where we go? That's not freedom, that's subjugation. I suggest that if you don't like women objecting to you looking at their tits, then just STFU and don't look. Or follow your own advice and "go elsewhere". Let us enjoy OUR freedoms.

But you know, this guy ain't for real. He thinks he's clever and witty and smart, and it's all a big laugh.

But he's the joke and we can laugh at him. Not that he's THAT funny but we can at least laugh at his jokes out of pity.

So much anger :D
You can cherry pick my statements if you like. You'll notice I also suggested telling the man that your not a fan of his behavior. We are not mind readers after all. Some women put a lot of time into keeping in shape and/or have some natural endowments, not all women get angry at a man's sexual appreciation.

I don't mind a woman speaking her mind, if she doesn't like the way I look at her she certainly has freedom of speech. That doesn't mean I'm going to change my behavior. If that behavior works with the majority of women I meet then why would I change it? So you can have a safe space where you don't need to be offended?

That's where your wrong, I am very "for real". Very against women getting a free pass for all of their whimsical desires.  Very tired of being told what I'm doing is somehow wrong because I'm a masculine man. I'm not even married, I don't have time for this crap, I leave it to the "men" who willingly submit to the lashings.
 
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NwaltRed

Guest
bob said:
Well said Emerald,

Thank you for your clear and concise comments. I applaud your clear head and thoughtful response.

NwaltRed said:
In any case I've concluded that this forum is a terribly toxic environment for a man to attempt any sort of recovery from porn addiction, oh well, back to yourbrainrebalanced ;)

NwaltRed, I encourage you should take your own advice.

I'm not really recovering here, just picking apart the nonsense ;)
 

Gracie

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
This thread is entitled Partners of Rebooters and Addicts.  It is for the partners.  It is our place to talk about our unique situations as we are along for a ride we did not choose.  It is our place to figure out what will help us AND help our PA person.  We come here because we love our person.  We come here to heal the emotional relationship that we once had.  We come here to gain knowledge.  We do not come here to tear each other down.

I am sure that Bob asked about ogling because it is hard for men to stop.  He wanted to know what we thought as we worked with our husbands to end the addiction.  Note he did not ask this in the parts of the forum that are solely for men. 

The point of our being here as SOs is to understand the hurt that has come from this.  If anyone, male or female, does something that the love of their life finds disrespectful or hurtful, they should end that behavior. 

Feminism is not the thing that should be argued against.  It is not about sex.  It is about how women are treated.  Not in any country in particular but women globally.  It is about respecting women.  If a woman accepts your gaze and finds it pleasing, good for you and her.  But if you are looking at women in an ogling way waiting for one to appreciate it, then it is probably unwanted.  Not dissing you but please let us have our space.  Thanks
 
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NwaltRed

Guest
Emerald Blue said:
Johan said:
I think that this behavior cames from biology, because i was checking out girls in highschool before i had ever seen a porn movie or a naked woman. This behavior just came out of nowhere and it made me wan't to know girls better.

We aren't here to argue about whether men look at women, or boys look at girls. The issue is how far do you draw the line between what is respectful and what is intrusive, and whether the consumption of pornography normalises an intrusive degree of objectification. There are no "correct" answers but there is a vast gray area between what individuals consider to be offensive, what is mildly intrusive and what is respectful. These are also dependent on cultural norms, but with the proliferation of internet pornography and sexualised imagery those cultural norms have shifted over the past 10-20 years. We could flog this one to death and we probably already have. We all have different views and experiences. Women have a different perspective of course, and we probably differ in what we find acceptable and what we find offensive or threatening.

On the subject of women looking at men, I have already seen a few posts back on what one man believes we look at. Not in my case. I don't care about a man's suit or his wallet or his car. I like handsome men with athletic physiques, but it's not necessarily sexual attraction. Do men honestly believe we can overlook some guy's beer gut overhanging his waistband?! "Oh but look at his sports car!" No. I don't think so! All this "women aren't visual" is bullcrap. I know my husband isn't physically perfect. It's not important to me. I'm not disappointed because his body has changed over the years. In my eyes he's beautiful, and yes, I do like looking at him. I always have done.

I think we've overdone this subject. I think it has been taken in a direction that is not necessarily helpful. Once the topic is no longer positive and supportive, and begins to create negativity and hostility, I think it's time to draw a line under it and move on.

Alright, I won't poke fun at you anymore, it's not very nice of me.
Let's focus on your statements above. Wouldn't you agree that society has drawn the line in the sand collectively at physical assault? Since we do not have a system in place to police thought crime, or eye contact, what sort of system would you suggest that avoids removing freedoms from well meaning people?

On the topic of whether pornography normalizes intrusive behavior (let's go with the societal definition, involving physical assault), we could say that a subset of pornography certainly could. We could also say that quite a bit of pornography does not shy away from displaying female empowerment on screen. One could also point to the decline of sexual assault, corresponding with the rise of internet pornography (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2015001/article/14211-eng.htm), even as the definition of sexual assault has significantly expanded (perhaps beyond reason in the case of intoxicated individuals engaging in sexual activity).

That's not to say that all men would resort to drastic measures if an outlet were unavailable, however it isn't a stretch to say that perhaps a minority of men would do so.

On the topic of the beer gut, why is that not sexual objectification? I don't want to jump to conclusions and suggest that you are implying that it is okay for women and not okay for men, but an explanation would be appreciated.

It has come to my attention that I've been overly confrontational, and less than sincere. My apologies, I've been in a bit of a foul mood lately. I am happy to provide reasonable arguments from here on out.
 
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NwaltRed

Guest
Gracie said:
This thread is entitled Partners of Rebooters and Addicts.  It is for the partners.  It is our place to talk about our unique situations as we are along for a ride we did not choose.  It is our place to figure out what will help us AND help our PA person.  We come here because we love our person.  We come here to heal the emotional relationship that we once had.  We come here to gain knowledge.  We do not come here to tear each other down.

I am sure that Bob asked about ogling because it is hard for men to stop.  He wanted to know what we thought as we worked with our husbands to end the addiction.  Note he did not ask this in the parts of the forum that are solely for men. 

The point of our being here as SOs is to understand the hurt that has come from this.  If anyone, male or female, does something that the love of their life finds disrespectful or hurtful, they should end that behavior. 

Feminism is not the thing that should be argued against.  It is not about sex.  It is about how women are treated.  Not in any country in particular but women globally.  It is about respecting women.  If a woman accepts your gaze and finds it pleasing, good for you and her.  But if you are looking at women in an ogling way waiting for one to appreciate it, then it is probably unwanted.  Not dissing you but please let us have our space.  Thanks

My apologies Gracie, I have been rather confrontational and unfair. In fact I am happy to learn more about the point of view of the partners in a reasonable way.

I do understand the definition of feminism, however actions do often speak louder than words.
It is evident to me that feminism has become less about equal opportunity for men and women and more about privileges for women.

I applaud the efforts of first wave feminists, allowing women the opportunity to live their lives as they choose and to have a say in political affairs, unfortunately the movement seems to have shifted focus away from equal opportunities in the 21st century and onto affirmative action and equality of outcomes.
 
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