Your views on recovery

[nD86]

I've been on this forum for a little under a month now; reading a little here and there, soaking up the insights and discussing views about this addiction. In the meantime I haven't engaged in P and, perhaps foolishly, feel that I have it in my control to make this a thing of the past, for good.

One thing that has struck me is that many members on here have a Christian orientation towards recovery, particularly those members who adhere to a twelve or thirteen step programme. To each his own, and what works for one person might not work for another, so that's fine..

What I'm wondering though, broadly speaking, is what are the attitudes of members towards recovery and life as an "ex-addict?"

I have noticed that there are a lot of neurological insights on addiction - brain pathways, dopamine and the like - but then there's also people who take a more religious attitude and adhere to a programme and its dominant attitude toward addiction. Many, it seems, combine scientific insights with religious attitudes. There are also others who seem reborn - got their act together on all of life's fronts; become more assertive, taken control, etc.; fully recovered, you might say.

So what I'm wondering is:

What is a recovered addict? Is there such a thing as recovery or is this a lifelong struggle? What do you base that position on?

From a practical point of view, I have good reason to ask these questions, because I have what modern psychology calls a personality that is "prone to addiction." (I have about eight or nine things that I use to give me that dopamine boost - none of them out of control, but together they contribute to what might be referred to as a "dopamine addiction." At least, that's how I see it...)

I am trying to find ways to deal with an out of control dopamine system in my life, but signing up to a forum and keeping a log for each of them just isn't workable. I have made big steps with breaking P, which honestly, I think has been the most destructive for my self-esteem, and noticing that as I become free from these self-esteem attacks, I have become clearer about other issues in my life. Sometimes it seems though that dealing with addictions, I am playing a game of whack-a-mole. I strike down on one and another head pops up somewhere else. I don't have the presence of mind or motivation to be a "recovered addict" in eight or nine different areas...

My own view is that I need to be dealing with dopamine irregularities in a far broader sense than purely P, then I am simply a recovering / recovered dopamine abuser. To simple to be true? I don't know. I am not sure how all this works at this point in time and would really appreciate some insights to help clear my thoughts on this and help me move forward.

 

[challenged]

One thing that has struck me is that many members on here have a Christian orientation towards recovery, particularly those members who adhere to a twelve or thirteen step programme. To each his own, and what works for one person might not work for another, so that's fine.

What is a recovered addict? Is there such a thing as recovery or is this a lifelong struggle? What do you base that position on?

My understanding is that the typical 12-step (or 13-step?) recovery program usually involves recognition of a "higher power."  That is certainly an aspect of Christianity, but Christianity involves much more than recognition of a "higher power."  In particular, it involves recognition/acceptance of Jesus Christ as the Son of God and as one's Lord and Savior.  So any particular 12-step program might not be "Christian" in any meaningful sense of the word.  OTOH, there are many Christian churches and organizations that use a 12-step program, in which case the recognition of a "higher power" would presumably be more specific as to who that "higher power" is. (In addition, and just as a side note, it is essentially impossible to have a Christian orientation towards recovery only.  A Christian will have (or should have) a "Christian orientation" towards everything, including recovery.)

I would also submit that Christianity is not antagonistic to science, at least in terms of the science that is presented on YBOP regarding how the brain works, dopamine addiction, etc. Just like there is nothing in Christianity that says if you have a virus or some illness you should just pray, as opposed to seeing a doctor or taking medication.  I think it is quite consistent for a Christian to employ the knowledge gained about brain pathways and dopamine from YBOP to help deal with and overcome the sin of sexual immorality (giving you the Christian perspective here).

In terms of the "Christian" perspective on matters of life-long addiction and recovery from addiction, you can probably get a few different perspectives and different experiences, depending on the exact question or issue, but I think many Christians would acknowledge that certain things (e.g., sexual lust, alcohol, anger, etc.) are potentially life-long temptations and challenges.  For a Christian, the good news is that our failings (even repeated ones) are forgiven, and and we have a power that can help us defeat such temptations and challenges, or at least enable us to deal with them with greater effectiveness over time.

I'm not sure this really answers your question(s), but I thought I would try to clarify some things and offer some thoughts on the Christian perspective in the hope that they might be helpful. None of these things are meant to challenge or dispute anything you have said, or to initiate an argument with anyone else; they are just offered in the spirit of discussing some of the rather complex issues in your post. 

 

[nD86]

Thanks for your views.

Don't worry. I didn't see your post as an attack. Not at all. I appreciate we're all coming at this from different perspectives.

I think I may have clouded the question that I am most eager to find an answer to with unnecessary side-tracks and long-windedness. My apologies.

What I would really like to find out is are there others among you for whom porn is not the sole addictive issue? As I mentioned, I have an array of ways to get my dopamine fix; none of them totally disruptive, but together culminating in a rather unhealthy lifestyle. I am curious what your thoughts are on dealing with this. I cannot go cold turkey on eight or nine issues, and it often seems like when I make progress on one - like P - others become stronger to make sure I am still getting my fix.

To give an example, I am smoking more cigarettes since I committed to rebooting.

 

[Blah432]

Hi ND- I'm an addict myself, mostly alcohol but plenty of other stuff over the years. I am recovered and haven't used in several years but I completely identify with the "out of control" dopamine system. Dopamine hypersensitivity will get blamed for that depending on who you talk to but I personally have found that it was a lack of connection with any meaning in my life (God) which was really driving me to do things like drugs, porn, bad relationships (sex), 15 cups of coffee a day etc...

As for the higher power thing- I have no doubt God acted in my life and I am connected with God- its a deeply personal thing for me and damn hard to explain but there's simply no doubt that a spiritual connection with a God has fixed me which allows me to not be stuck the way I was before. This is where people think I'm Christian and I'm not- I don't follow any religions or churches - I would go do volunteer work way before I sat in a room with people praying- I see action as my church if that makes any sense.

I really can't explain any aspect of our lives and neither can anyone else- not truly explain them. We come from somewhere (we don't really know) we die (again we don't know). We are on a planet in outer space relying on a burning star for everything- my point is simply that there is so much we don't know, I actually started to have faith in God at some point as crazy as it had always sounded to me, and it has saved me from the person I was- its the only thing that ever truly changed me.

 

[William]

Hi nD86, I am responding to your initial post on this thread.  I have been a porn abuser, then a porn addict who did not know it, then a porn addict who knew it but did not mind so much, to a porn addict who attempted and failed to quit over and over and over until I am who I am now, over 500 days clean.  I have seen a lot of people proclaim "it's over" only to be back 7, 8, 9 days later to say "oops, I failed, now I am going to really get serious."  A lot of guys are serial relapsers. 

You are 33 days into a hard mode 90.  That is an excellent start and that tells me you can do this.  But if I may be so bold, be careful.  There are, for all  of us, during the hard 90, moments when the addiction plays games with us.  I tell people that sometimes during the reboot, and for most, multiple times during the reboot, the addiction will start to reason with us, plead with us, distract us.  You are asking some very big questions and the questions are all very legitimate, but if you will take my advice, hold off on the big questions until you hit 90 days in.  You might find that the big questions do not seem so important once you have rebalanced and rebooted.  I have seen guys quit, or try to quit, porn as part of an overall approach at improving their lives, of saving their souls.  In my experience that approach is a distraction, and usually fails, because quitting porn is just quitting porn; it just puts us in a place to attain victory, but really, it is not much of a victory in and of itself.  Look at quitting porn narrowly, and don't let anything distract you from that.  Get clean first, get your dopamine reward center back to something approaching normal, and then, clean, you will be able to tackle the big questions from a much less challenging place.  The 90 day reboot is a limited time in your life so you can live the balance of your life not having to fight this addiction.  Take this short period now to free yourself up for so much later, on the other side of addicted.  Keep your focus narrow during the reboot, be a "man quitting porn."  You may feel like you are back in control at day 33, but they don't call it the hard 90 because the average time is 33 days. Quit porn, turn off the dopamine spout, unwire that meaningless, empty, life sucking reward pathway, and if you can do that you will find yourself in a much better place to deal with the other issues in your life.  In fact, a lot of the things that may seem like huge issues now may seem small once you are rebooted. 

Keep going, porn is not an option.

Peace.

Will I AM.

 

[nD86]

@Blah432: that's really inspirational, man. I could see how engaging in positive, socially committed activities would be a good counterweight for dopamine cravings, since they are all quite isolating activities if you think about it. I recognise a lot of what you say, but haven't found the strength to quit my dopamine-inspired lifestyle yet. A lot of my choices in life have been inspired by this desire for deeper connection you describe - God, if you will - but each time I fall back into instant gratification mode, and feel like I have to start afresh.

Anyway, thanks for posting, and truly awesome (in the literal sense of the word) that you have found your path.

@William: you're right. I do need to be careful. Not sure if I have the right counter though, because I'm not doing hard mode (I have no qualms about sex). It's just P that I want to steer absolutely clear from.

I really value your input and I think you're right on the money when it comes to my attitude towards this whole thing. I have over the years been struggling with a lot of big questions, while also living the lifestyle of a dopamine addict. Certainly, one of the least healthy bases to conduct any type of philosophical, spiritual and emotional investigatory work from. Strange as this may sound, I think grand philosophical realisations have become part and parcel of my dopamine problem. I crave reaching the truth of matters, and when I do feel like I have struck a chord with life there is that beautiful release, but these type of realisations are transient, and before I know it the feeling has slipped and I am back searching for answers.

I will take your advise and see porn and as just porn for the remainder of my 90-day P-free challenge, and see where I stand after that. Rebalancing my dopamine system should indeed be my top priority. Perhaps then I will have what it takes to start living some of these truths, instead of chasing after the realisation of them like some sort of spiritual junkie.

Thank you for your help.

 

[Blah432]

There's another aspect of this that I think might be more relevant to you ND- I don't think my drug addiction is the same as my porn "addiction". I don't even know how to describe it but for me doing drugs and drinking, and the solution to that (spiritually based) is just different from these other dopamine related activities.

Addiction to drugs drove me nearly to death- it was literally "fuck everything I'm getting wasted" - think of it kind of like giving up completely on any semblance of a life. This was a pretty deep core issue which again is why ultimately the spiritual assessment (why am I alive, what is my purpose in the universe) was so important.

The dopamine stuff you talk about is something I struggle with yet it doesn't feel like addiction, it feels like random compulsions but they aren't the same as my addiction with substances- that was more about my core reason for being- the dopamine stuff is more peripheral. I'm not saying I have answers because I don't- I can't stop looking at porn despite massive cutbacks, I still drink too much coffee/energy drinks and I struggle not to, I still love validation from girls more than I should, I like gambling and fight off the urge to do that - the list goes on.

I don't want to piss people off because I just love general discussion on these things but this is why I tend to separate addiction from compulsions. I would class porn as a compulsion- I don't think most guys are struggling with addiction although some certainly are. Its actually harder than people think to figure out if a person has the disease of addiction or if they are something of a heavy user/abuser.

 

[challenged]

Re the comment about addiction vs. compulsion, I do think that there are people who are addicted to porn, but I also think that there are quite a few people who watch porn and who want to stop it who are not "addicted" in the classical sense.  They just really like porn and who use it regularly or somewhat regularly for that reason.  You frequently hear on this site "we are all addicts."  I don't think this is correct.  At the very least, it is overbroad. 

One of Gary Wilson's radio interviews even pointed out that he has seen quite a few younger users who are not addicts who are trying to give up porn because they experience ED problems even with a frequency/type of use that does not amount to addiction.  So that would indicate that the brain changes that we discuss on this site do not necessarily indicate a full-blown addiction in every "user."

I'm not sure what this means in terms of the present discussion, except that sometimes I think we might conclude that people are "addicted" to various things (not just porn), when it is more of a habit, or compulsion, or something that they really like to do because it brings pleasure.  A compulsive use of something might still need to be dealt with if it is causing a problem in one's life, but I'm not sure that in every circumstance or situation labeling something as an "addiction"  or labeling a person as an "addict" always helps in the analysis of the problem or how to solve it.

P.S.  I don't want to piss people off either; it just my opinion. 

 

[Mbg]

For someone who has gone 114 days and then relapsed, I can say confidently I will always be an addict.  I will never be "recovered".  Rather, I will live in a perpetual state of recovery.  Furthermore, I am an atheist and am also part of a 12 step group.  SAA makes it very clear in it's Traditions that it is not affiliated with religious organization.  It does use the terms "God of your own understanding" which, if you ignore the capital G, can be something as simple as the group conscience or the support of fellow addicts. 

To your other questions, I too struggle with many addictions, some more disruptive than others.  It seems that I have accumulated certain traits throughout my life time that have resulted in me becoming addicted to certain behaviors and substances.  I think many addicts tend to possess some of the same character traits.  Insecurity, fear, loniless, and unworthiness tend to forge contrary emotions such as: self-centeredness, jealousy, rage, and codependency in an addict like myself.  Addictions, no matter the drug, are more about the person than they are about the actual substance; the same way some people can drink alcohol without becoming addicted or view porn without becoming addicted.  Recovery, for me, is about bettering myself as a person, and as a result i may seem long-time sobriety, but I'm really gunning for one day at a time. 

 

[nD86]

I couldn't agree more with all three of the last posts.

I would not personally consider myself a porn addict, but I am someone who has a tendency to search for whatever might give a temporary boost when I am feeling down, tired or insecure. Personally, I do not believe that a core feeling of unworthiness is something that has to be permanent. I mean, I have a lot of deep-rooted insecurities that I have are simply a knock-on effect from my parents. The difference is that I am actively engaged in healing while my parents are not, so I'm more confident of a positive outcome because I am approaching my issues in a more healthy, confrontational manner. I have made big steps over the past few years, particularly the past half year, and am slowly restructuring my life to support healthy habits instead of unhealthy ones.

The biggest thing for me is to cut out people from my life who bring the aforementioned feelings out in me. I am not yet strong enough to be unaffected by other people's negativity and self-centredness, particularly when these people are close family or friends. It's a struggle though, and scary a lot, but I guess it has to be.

I know for a fact that a fear of real intimacy lies at the root of why I turned to porn and it became so entangled in my life. That, and a desire to regain control over situations in my life over which I had little control. I had no control, for example, over my family situation. Was, until the age of eighteen, "forced" to live in the noxious environment I used to call "home". At 28, I have more control, and I have more say in the choices I make in my life. I am finding that as I exercise more control over my social life and the people I allow to influence me (it is more difficult to control the influence people have on you than to control who you allow around you to have that influence) my desire for porn has severely diminished.

Anyway, I don't think we should be too worried about getting into discussions about these matters. In the very least, I have found it helpful to hear your views on things and reflect on it together, so thank you all for that.