Another voice in the wind

[hoague]

Hi everyone. Amazing to read all of the journals and stories here that feel so similar to mine. I look forward to becoming a part of your conversations - please if you have suggestions or thoughts about my situation do share and let me know.

I'm sure my story is nothing new but just to write it down because I never have... Started young with physical magazines and very basic dial-up. Used to read playboy at age 12 or so in the local thrift store in rural north carolina by putting it in a larger paper I pretended to read. I'm sure the clerk knew but he never said anything. Found a stack of penthouse in an old truck in a field. I'm sure that guy was pissed when he came back and found them gone. Graduated to online pictures that took 30 seconds to come down when AOL was working well.

High speed internet came along after college and I never looked back. 3x a day if I wasn't doing anything else and that's been the deal as long as I can remember up until 10 days ago. I have gone through the progression that Gabe talks about in his excellent videos. Start with guy on girl, get desensitized, move on, and on, and on. Began to get worried about my developing tastes and looked around for a description of the situation. Arousal addiction fit my symptoms very well - hearing that it's an addiction like chemical dependency made me feel both better and scared. Seeing effects like memory ramifications, physical ED that doesn't manifest during M sessions, decreased life drive in general, depression. Between video games and PMO I've lost a lot of great women. So now I'm 47, in a sexless marriage, no kids and wondering where it all went.

My last straw came a couple weeks ago. My latest fixation has been asian women. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on your viewpoint, I came to the pacific northwest where asians abound. I've had two asian affairs now at work, one ending with her question to me whether I would take care of her for the rest of my life (I backed away from that fortunately). The other went further mentally into what I can only call love. To find the intensity of feelings after 10 years with one woman has been amazing but of course she's married too, and 30. To find someone that doesn't appear to have a problem with 17 years' difference in age is obviously rare (and suspect) but we are keeping it a work thing and I'm left with the inevitable drawdown in emotion. I'm sure everyone that has had a work fling knows the intensity that goes along with it. And the intense mood swings when it starts to fade. She's headed to another city in a few months and that's going to be a rough time.

We had a night after work that went on until 2am while my wife was out of town but her husband was not. Disaster on her end and you can well imagine the crazy emotions that were running through us both. I didn't want to tell my wife but I knew I had to do something to explain my mood changes so I got more serious about quitting PMO, found Gabe's story and decided to undertake the long-overdue effort to stop and get clean - that's what I told her instead of the reality of my lack of faithfulness. It's been 10 days. I'm faced with this woman at work - her perfect body and a personality that fits with me to a T. Never expected to find it with someone so young - maybe it's because I'm so immature! It's like having the object of your PMO addiction walking and talking to you every day. I have no idea how I'm going to stop thinking about her - tried having sex with the wife this morning. Same problems as always. I'm reading 90 days to get clean. I cannot imagine how that's going to happen - feels like I have two grapefruits down there. I'm hopeful things can turn around. My wife is a great person - we've been to counseling and I give us maybe 50/50 at this point. Hoping with no PMO the odds will improve. She says she's supportive of my efforts.

Feels good to get it out - none of this is something I feel comfortable sharing with my buddies. I guess it's not until you hit the embankment that you realize fully that you're sliding sideways down the road.

Ah well - life, right? Here's to making it to day 11.

Thanks guys - have a good one.

 

[bob]

hoague,

Welcome to RN. This can truly be a place of hope.

My wife is a great person - we've been to counseling and I give us maybe 50/50 at this point. Hoping with no PMO the odds will improve. She says she's supportive of my efforts.

I need to say the following.

If your wife is a great person and you are going to counseling, you ought to give it 100%. Try and work it out with her. She says she's supportive of you, you should be supportive of her. Concentrate on being PMO will require saying no to outside temptations.

You owe it to yourself. You owe it to your wife.

Best of luck on your reboot.

Peace

 

[TK-421]

Welcome to RN. There's lots of info and support here. I can relate to a lot of your experiences and I'm sure that there is quite a bit going on in your head right now. We don't make it easy on ourselves. Part of what motivated me to start on this path was just being tired of lies and secrecy.

Wishing you well on your journey. It does help to check in and post here regularly.

TK-421

 

[hoague]

Really appreciate your comments and thoughts, @bob & @TK-421. I'd like to think I can be worth the love of a good woman. I think that's what p steals from you over time. The self-confidence and ability to focus on other humans. It was really freeing to tell her I'm trying to break the PMO cycle. And even after 11 days I'm feeling less like a lecherous old man and more like a guy that's lost his way but maybe not forever.

I wish I could have back all of the hours and hours I've wasted. That I could make the women that had to feel less-than-adequate understand it really wasn't them.

@TK-421 you hit the nail on the head, the lies you tell yourself and those around you - it's galling to think about. When you're alone in the dark, it's too easy to turn on the computer and lose yourself in it. Too easy to live in that false reality that lets you get to sleep, lets you focus but prevents real meaningful relationships.

I really worry about what it's going to feel like when this woman at work moves on. The last link to a false reality that I've grown to rely on for intense feelings. The addiction incarnate. She's leaving the job in a month or so - that's when the walls will close in again. When I have to exist through what seems like prime time for the flat line. With PMO, who needs friends? I've lost many. Starting again at this age - lacking the confidence. Somehow managing to keep my wife engaged and feeling loved. Just doesn't feel like I deserve that chance.

What a hellish trip!  Can't tell you guys what it means to know it's been conquered before. That you guys are struggling with some of the things I am. Being alone in the dark is no way to live.

 

[hoague]

Reading William's post thread (reposted here in case anyone hasn't read it) http://legacy.rebootnation.org/index.php?topic=1256.25.

Reading my own post and coming to the realization that i'm using a hypersexualized series of encounters at work to substitute for porn. I haven't really missed porn at all in the 11 days since I started my reboot. I've left that door open as I chase this woman. She gives me just enough to hang my lousy ass cheating hat on and it's just another lie.

As William says, the dopamine rush is the thing - even the thought of cutting it off with her is enough to send me scrambling to the surreptitious images I took of her legs while we were in the office today. You know, "just to have them for when she's gone". That sick feeling of 'the end' and the desperation. I hoped I could stop PMO, have no orgasms and reboot while still having my cake too, right?

That crushing sensation is there now. And when I pull back she comes back around and I'm there waiting for her. It's one thing to resist the lure of a web link. Quite another the trailing fingertips of a horny younger woman across your shoulders.

How you guys ever get to 90 days is damn hard to imagine.

 

[hoague]

Approaching two weeks now - realizing something of the depth of my need for visual stimulation even when it goes nowhere. I'm trying to stop looking but it's impossible. Yoga class - torture. Workout at gym with tons of young nurses - torture. At work in a hospital surrounded by women - torture. Not flirting with said women that are open to it - torture. I use PMO at home out of boredom. During the day is when I'm feeding the dopamine rush. Have built daily activities to ensure I get my fix. How do you fight that?

Need to get back on level ground with the wife. If I could find the mojo from the start of our relationship - something like it anyway where I've got something to chase that doesn't cause a divorce or cost $300/hr.

Not really sure what would be useful to write. I can feel the flat line coming. If I drop work pursuits I'm not sure what's left. No dopamine at all. Drinking I guess...

 

[bob]

hoague,

How you guys ever get to 90 days is damn hard to imagine.

You would be surprised how it feels after a good many days. I am still vigilant but I don't feel the constant pull.

Peace

 

[hoague]

had an interesting talk with a buddy today. he and his wife have an open marriage. they essentially date other couples and have, over time, built up what amounts to separate lives with these other 'significant others'. i was talking to him about my reboot - the two week mark finally has come and gone. of course that's easier when you find intimacy with someone - arousal addiction comes naturally with an affair. My buddy's point was that you have to have an alpha outlet. I think he's right. if it's not porn any longer, what is it? Writing a novel or having better intercourse with your wife is a start, but I wonder how to replace the sensation of being with so many different women. I'm hopeful the woman I'm chasing now will last long enough where I'm no longer plugged into the electronic version of arousal addiction, but i worry i'll just find another to go after to get my fix.

He and his wife are very zen about the whole thing. Accepting of one another - at least on the surface. I doubt i could feel comfortable with that kind of arrangement but I am stuck on the primary point that the outlet must be there.

Things to noodle around on.

 

[TK-421]

One thing William has said many times (and I agree with) is to do the 90 day reboot and then start to think about these sorts of questions. If you are like me, living a porn-fueled, hypersexualized life causes all sorts of confusion about who you are and what you want. One thing that always held me back was the thought that I didn't want a "boring sex life". Some of what I wanted was not compatible with other values which were important to me, like honesty, intimacy, integrity.

If you really have got to the point where you don't want the addiction in your life, I would say do the reboot and then start to ask yourself questions about what you want your marriage to look like, etc. To be honest, I'm not sure what your friend is getting at be saying everyone needs an alpha male outlet. Is he suggesting that every man needs to be able to have sexual conquests to feel satisfied in his life? If so, I don't think thats true. Lots of men find satisfaction through intimacy, partnership, companionship, trust with one partner.  I'm not saying that an open marriage couldn't work for some people, but I am doubtful about the amount of true satisfaction in those relationships.

 

[bob]

TK-421

I'm not saying that an open marriage couldn't work for some people, but I am doubtful about the amount of true satisfaction in those relationships.

Well said TK.

 

[malando]

had an interesting talk with a buddy today. he and his wife have an open marriage. they essentially date other couples and have, over time, built up what amounts to separate lives with these other 'significant others'. i was talking to him about my reboot - the two week mark finally has come and gone. of course that's easier when you find intimacy with someone - arousal addiction comes naturally with an affair. My buddy's point was that you have to have an alpha outlet. I think he's right. if it's not porn any longer, what is it? Writing a novel or having better intercourse with your wife is a start, but I wonder how to replace the sensation of being with so many different women. I'm hopeful the woman I'm chasing now will last long enough where I'm no longer plugged into the electronic version of arousal addiction, but i worry i'll just find another to go after to get my fix.

He and his wife are very zen about the whole thing. Accepting of one another - at least on the surface. I doubt i could feel comfortable with that kind of arrangement but I am stuck on the primary point that the outlet must be there.

Things to noodle around on.

You're on this forum because you want people to call it like they see it, right?

Here goes:

I think you're trying to find a scientific justification for cheating on your wife. I'm not buying it.

If you want an open relationship, ask for one. If she says no, you've got to go with what she wants, or leave. It's really that simple. But don't try selling this baloney of an extramarital affair being part of your sound management program. If you want an outlet, fix things up with your wife, or get a divorce. Don't go peddling this "this is what I think might be right for me" stuff when you know that your wife would want to hang you for it if she knew. You're showing her no respect by not giving her the option to leave if she knew the full facts.

 

[hoague]

Well said, Malando. Appreciate the kick in the backside. And the more gentle version from TK. It's true - it's all looking for an excuse to cheat on my wife because I've only found something that feeds the dopamine cycle when I'm watching porn or cheating. Hypersexualized and being a real piece of work seem to go together. I'm congratulating myself for making 15 days when I'm still chasing a woman at work and dragging her into problems in her marriage and her sense of self. It's all so selfish and that urge to stop should be enough just knowing I'm a piece of sh*t while I'm doing it.

Giving her the option to leave if she knew the full facts. I think that's it exactly, Malando. I've told her about the reboot but only that I'm 15 days clean - that I'm hopeful we can work things out and get close again. Not that I jumped into the reboot because I was so messed up over this other woman that I couldn't hide my emotions and knew it would come out somehow. Friday my wife was out of town and I took the other woman to the airport after a work HH. Of course ended up as you would expect in the cell phone waiting area (I'm a class act alright). Fingers inside her - didn't go all the way - but I might as well have swallowed a bottle of adrenaline. 100 mile bike ride the next day to try to follow the 'extreme exercise/nature/people' mantra, but then texts from her on her trip and spent 3 hours last night on the phone with her. My balls are humming I'm so on edge right now.

Where do you get the strength to do this, guys? This woman is moving and we'll have to shut it down. Maybe that'll be the equivalent to the internet going out. But then I'm trying to pull a woman after yoga class today and that's just a numbers game - eventually something will catch.

I'm really doubting whether I can be the type of man my wife deserves. She definitely doesn't deserve the lack of respect. Do I just tell her and end it - let her find a man that hasn't put his own junk in a vise? Really sucking at life right now.

Appreciate the thoughts. Can therapists get you through?

 

[TK-421]

Hmmm, lots to think about with your situation. I think there is a clear intersection between porn addiction and sex addiction. For some of the people on this board, their addictive behaviours generally only involve addiction to Internet porn. For some, including me, the addiction also involves sexual behaviours. I think they are related, but are different for every guy. For me, the porn was the driver of it all, like the gasoline that got everything else out of control. It gave me all sorts of (confusing) ideas about what I wanted my sexuality to be. It also made it easy to justify my own behaviours - I could point to all of the people in both professional and amateur porn as examples of all the crazy sex people were having.

With your affair, far be it from me to tell you what your motivation is, but from the little you've said it seems to be more the excitement of an illicit relationship with someone you find attractive or who stokes your "alpha male" ego. I don't see that it's a real satisfying relationship and that she is really the one you want to be with and not your wife. If she was, I think it would be an easier decision to divorce your wife and have a legitimate relationship with the other woman. If what really is getting your adrenaline going is the thrill of the chase, you wouldn't be any happier with the other girl.

For me, where I landed is that honesty and integrity are important values to me. Any sexual behaviour that requires lying or secrecy (especially from my wife) is not a healthy sexual behaviour and not something I want in my life.  Let's be honest, anything that requires lying to our spouses such as an affair is obviously a selfish behaviour. You'll have to decide if that's part of who you want to be.

Don't take the comments here as everyone jumping on you. You obviously ended up on a porn addiction forum because something wasn't working for you. Would a happy life for you be no porn and screwing around behind your wife? I'm guessing it doesn't. Ask yourself what it is about the affair that is appealing to you. I'm guessing you'll find the drivers are pretty superficial and likely don't form the basis for long-lasting, solid contentment in your life.

TK-421

 

[BlueSun]

I can add, as a fellow in an open relationship,  that it is really not the kind of thing that works for many people.  I think that left unchecked,  humans are not monogomous.  Our genetic ancestry is rooted in 80 % of the women pairing with 40% of the males (or some strange statistic like that)  However, in this day and age the norm for all intents and purposes is serial monogamy.  50% of marriages end in divorce.  70% of second marriages end in divorce.  Already the odds are pretty steep.  But what it shows, I think, is that relationships are hard, theyre complex, and theyre often unpredictable in their outcome

So a majority of the world chooses to stick with one partner and thats the agreement.  And then they head off and have an affair or a fling breaking that agreement,  lying about it, betraying trust, and causing themselves to carry the additional weight not only of the precipitating factors that led them to stray in the first place, but the weight of having violated the trusted bond which was mutually agreed upon as an inviolate safety.

What lies at the core of that marriage?  I, although according to most hateful conservatives have no say in the matter because im gay, would hope that what lies at the core of the marriage is a deep friendship,  strong and enduring, where each party truly desires wholly and fully that they remain together not because they have to but because they want to. Love isnt compulsory, we get to choose who we give it to.

My partner and I have an open relationship.  Our bond far exceeds just physical dominion of one another.  He has dates and comes back and I ask how they are and im happy that he has a good time.  But for me, honestly, it is a lot of fucking work to have a second relationship.  It involves careful building of trust, open communication,  a lot of open and honest communication,  and a trust that can stand the tumult of day to day bs.  To be honest with you, I dont mess with outside relationships mostly because people are emotionally messy, and I just dont have a lot to give.  I wouldnt mind a fling, but even those aren't without emotional attachments.

I share this with you because if you have already stepped outside that ring of trust that you have built with your spouse, an open relationship will only multiply that complexity.  As well, when the second relationships begin in an open relationship,  they do not have the secretive adrenaline packed hot and heavy stuff you see in the movies.  All that is a chemical cascade in the brain, not entirely dissimilar to looking at some kind of porn that you know you shouldnt like and the dopamine keeps edging you on anyhow.  Open relationships must start, be grounded firmly and without any uncertainty in explicit trust and open communication or they will just signal the slow waning of yet another marriage.

Having spent plenty of time courting a second partner from time to time, take it from me, even if it is in some random place and the heat of the moment is on, it is not in secret or in infidelity that the coupling is taking place.  Quite the opposite. 

I know I have written a lot and hope that I havent come on too strongly with this.  I just get the sense that the chase and seduction is closer to sex addiction and porn addiction than it is to an open relationship.  And if you value the trust that you have built and the agreement that you made, then dont try to decide if you are a worthy man or not.  First, stop the stuff with other women.  Stay clean.  Give your brain time to heal.  Ask for help if you can.  When youve cleared the fog and look at things, the answer will be clearer.  You cant get a lay of the land while you remain in the pit youve dug. 

Ive been reading your posts.  I know you have a strong heart.  I know that you have a sense of what you really want.  Ignore the voices that tell you that you arent worth it and fight for the trust youve lost in yourself.  You are worth it.  You deserve a chance.

 

[hoague]

Thanks guys. I really appreciate the thoughtful insights. You're right TK, it's all rooted in selfish behavior. It's odd I find myself being more honest with the 'other woman' than with my wife. Like it's important that she believes in my integrity given the obvious infidelity in which we are both engaged. I tell myself (and her) that she's different, somehow - that because she came through cancer with a smile over all the pain and what she endured as a young person in vietnam before she was plucked by the good graces of fortune into a wonderful family - because she has that kind of background she's more like a real humpty dumpty that I want to be but haven't found yet. Edited for you guys there of course.

I know it's going to end so I don't have to hold back. Because I know on the other side of this is the gaping black maw where i try to heal as you suggest BlueSun and I want something to hold onto. Everything you say rings true - you don't start from my position and I'm sure the suggestion of an open relationship would simply confirm my wife's feelings of inadequacy, crush her and end our relationship. Or at least it would damage it severely as she has no moral breakdown that I've ever seen. She doesn't deserve that (or me most of the time).

It's funny to think of this as sex addiction for me as I don't have sex. Not with my wife since the PIED ruined that and it's so rare to get an extra-marital thing going to that level for me as I'm more into the connection. You're right BlueSun it's hell of a lot of work and I rarely find someone worth the effort (not that I'm worth the effort - the irony isn't lost on me). I chase for a while and stop. To your point, TK, none of it makes me happy. This woman makes me feel good in a selfish way - approaching 50 I'm feeling the growing invisibility from certain women - even as others become attracted. Having someone find my combination of traits interesting that, based on physical evidence so far, could get past the PIED is a rush - no doubt about it. I feel like I've already betrayed the marital trust through using PMO nearly exclusively for seven years since marriage to the point that a dalliance that might get the little general to stand solidly at attention again without imagery is top of mind beyond what it should be. I'd really really like to have sex with this woman. I have used online material so much that I cherish that idea way too much. Even after what, 18 days, that sounds so ridiculous but it was me every day, 3x a day. I feel weak and pathetic for not stopping before but it's grip is immense.

You know I'm interested in feeling less like humpty - I'd like to gain any form of clarity possible and I hope it's coming. What happens when my little cuddly 30 year old runs away and I'm left with memories and reality - that's the part I'm leery about facing. Hopefully having a 90 day reboot will help cut off my usual avenue of escape. BlueSun it is a fog - and it's a well-known fog that can become a sort of blanket that feels like it hides you and protects you even when it's doing neither as you walk toward a cliff.

It sounds like you have a great marriage and an open marriage. It's not one or the other. Congratulations and continued success. I'm quite sure you've earned it through very hard work.

Thank you both again for sharing. It's nice to have some light in the dark.

 

[hoague]

Finally got some control and ended it with my 'other significant other' - now back to my old nemesis PMO. What was it Tom Cruise said in Cocktail in the 80's - 'if things didn't end badly they wouldn't end'? Should know better by this age than to get into that kind of silly stuff. Maybe after I get my mind clear and heal a little I can be more objective and decisive around the reasons I felt the need to pursue someone other than my wife.

With almost three weeks gone since my last session, I can say gabe's advice of extreme exercise, nature and people works pretty well. My current record (over the past 30 years) is 31 days and that's the only other time I made it past 10 days so that's pretty cool. Makes me want to try quitting all my bad habits!

On a trip to utah right now to see zion and bryce canyons. I have a hard time not looking at womens' legs/feet and, at the airport in vegas today, i switched trains when a hot blonde with great legs walked in with her guy. My new rule is if i'm going to invade her privacy by staring at her i'm going to talk to her. Given my complete lack of game, that should get me out of most challenging situations. Sort of like not putting the bag of cheetohs in the grocery cart. If I don't look at it in the wild, i'll be less likely to turn to it at home. I hope anyway. Time alone is the worst - just have to keep moving and looking ahead.

Cheers everyone.

 

[TK-421]

Haven't heard from you for a while. How's it going?

 

[hoague]

Thanks for checking in, TK. Just finishing up my trip. Still on the wagon as far as PMO goes. Not very physically comfortable at the moment. Does the need to release go away? Just wait for autopilot to take over while you sleep?

Can't manage to stop pursuing this woman from work. Hard to separate true feelings from PMO-fueled lust. 26 days trying to stop PMO and trying to stop chasing her. So I'm 26 days no PMO and 6 hours no cheat. I'm a damn mess right now. PMO could at least remove the tension - maybe I should postpone the reboot until I bring the extracurricular activities under control? Or just keep taking it one day at a time, find some success with PMO and use that to fuel the thoughts of a better life?

Just life, right?

 

[bob]

hoague,

Remember, your not being forced to do anything you choose not to. It is not like your brain has control of you actions and tells you to case that woman. Well, let me rephrase that... Its telling you but you don't have to listen.

It is painful but it pain is the evidence of healing. Embrace the pain and shorten your struggle dramatically.

Not saying it is easy. It is not. But you can do this.

Peace

 

[hoague]

I hear you, Bob - it's all my choice in the end. What I'm risking and actually giving up in terms of closeness with my wife for transient moments with someone else. It's exactly like the hour or whatever that would be total immersion with PMO and then I'd be relaxed. Talk to her on the phone an hour ago and I'm feeling good, right up until the point her husband gets home and she hangs up.

It's like I'm a pathetic-aholic. Ever get busted during a PMO session? Same feeling. Fortunately you guys have lived this stuff too - always easier to hear the truth from people that have walked the path. I guess I'll start looking at the physical withdrawal sensations as a positive move toward healing. Freaking brain - why is it wired this way?