Things I miss

[Emerald Blue]

UD, you really have been through so much. Fate can be cruel. Even without serious illness derailing your recovery as a couple, recovery is a very delicate process even in the most ideal conditions. Anything, and I mean ANYTHING, can throw off a recovering addict. My husband hasn't relapsed (as far as I know) but I don't believe he has yet learned to manage his own emotional thoughts and reactions. The very things that contributed to his acting out behaviors. His emotions almost spiral out of control and end up controlling him, and then his mood gets stuck in a downward spiral. In the past he'd escape into porn or sexualised imagery to escape his mood. So far I don't think he's good at dealing with it, at preventing that downward spiral. So it's either ruminating and getting depressed/angry/despondent or escapism. Neither are healthy. His communication skills aren't great. Slightly better but not much better than a few months after d day.

He's not really working on communicating better. Anything that puts him into the spiral, let's say, means he cuts himself off, doesn't communicate with me, reverts to his old tactic of saying the least amount to avoid saying what the problem is, gets impatient if I ask and then distances himself. When distance occurs intimacy suffers. So although there is no porn activity, sometimes it *feels* like I'm back there. I suppose I'm disappointed that there's been not enough progress as I'd hoped. Then again, who ever has the classic textbook recovery story? Nobody here, that's for sure.

Great to see you. Keep posting and venting. Hugs. X

 

[Objectified1]

If we mean enough to our husbands then they will put the necessary work into recovery. Which really means getting outside of their comfort zone and dealing with emotions instead of stuffing them. I have learned that one of the reasons for escape into sexual things is the complete distraction sexual arousal causes. It blocks out all other thoughts/emotions and it is multifaceted. It is emotional, visual and physical. When with a real partner it is also Scent and taste. I have learned that men who become addicted to this stuff actually have replaced their "trigger" for arousal. So in a perfect world a man is "triggered" to sexual arousal by intimacy - real emotional intimacy, with his wife/significant other. In our over sexualized world most people have replaced this trigger with "naked". So men who watch porn and ogle etc, like pavilions dog, hear the bell, (see naked women) and are triggered to sexual arousal. A man who is addicted to porn is past this even. Instead of naked women - arousal, it goes, negative emotion - arousal. Then starts the chain of him looking for things to aid towards orgasm. Orgasm for men is associated with feeling or euphoria and relief..... the ahhhhhhh feeling. When a man orgasms it actually shuts down the anxiety/fear centers in his brain. So a man addicted to porn or the like gets triggered to sexual arousal from nonsexual things like negative emotions .... he has trained his brain to actually respond to these negative emotions with a sexual response. This is how it's not even about sex for them. Once he's triggered mentally.... say he goes to work and had a bad day.... his brain automatically clicks due
To the stress and negative emotions (think your mouth watering when you think about sour candy), without him even realizing it his brain and body is preparing. It's saying stress/ anxiety = reward, in this case orgasm. It's an automatic response that he has created in his body. Once this Reaction is subconsciously triggered, chemicals and the like have already started surging through his body, although at this point not in huge quantities. He is then in a hyper-alert state. Usually men still don't realize anything is going on at this point. He starts to notice the women around him (his brain is looking for MORE of the drugs that have started to release). Each inappropriate glance at a women increases it. Then men go through a ritual at this point.... the "ritual" can take anywhere from hours to months (with our men it was probably down to hours). The ritual leads to their acting out of course. . I'm sure many of you already know this stuff but it helped me understand how it wasn't about sex. I couldn't understand why he used "sex" as his drug either till it was explained. I would agree I suppose that sexual arousal can be quite distracting.  Hubby explained it as , he would feel stress/anxiety etc (never realized this stuff then) & then he would feel the need for a release. So it wasn't , look - girl, she turns me on, I want her, I better go masturbate to the thoughts of her. It was "I'm frustrated. In pops a random thought. It would be nice to have an orgasm." Then starts the subconscious chain of events to achieve one. He totally separated sex from  an intimate act. Sex wasn't sex, nor was it about anything sex should be about, such as loving another individual and being physical intimate as a result of personal, close, emotional intimacy.  It was a release from pressure or anxiety. It was turned into his brains subconscious "stress release". It still hurts. I don't think it ever won't, but understanding why helps a bit. So our Counsellor has him doing things like, randomly stopping through his day, thinking about how he feels, what's going on around him and writing it down. If he has the thought, " I need a release/orgasm" pop  into his head, he ha to immediately stop, evaluate what's going on, how he's feeling etc and replace tjatbthoight with a loving comforting memory surrounding someone he loves. Amongst other things. I have seen more progress with our counselling through redemptive living in the last month then I have seen in the last year and a half. Just yesterday we went to Costco. Usually this results in me leaving quite upset as I encounter many triggers. However he sent me texts the wellie way through whenever he saw me looking uncomfortable, he told me in detail how much he loved me and how much i mean to him and how he has absolutely no desire to look at anyone else BEFORE we went in and he asked how I was and & volunteered  loving things as soon as we left. I was moved to tears. He has never done that and I felt SO loved afterwards. I am feeling so hopeful. I am beyond thankful I decided to take the step and et Counselling from someone who has been there. We tried two other counsellors with no results because really, they had no idea what they were doing. I wish the best of luck to
You all.

 

[Emerald Blue]

Thanks for your excellent explanation of the behaviors/emotional chain. It's far more useful than the dopamine theories ? which I don't doubt by the way. Too much emphasis is on what's going on in the minutes before the porn behavior, after the decision to seek out the orgasm has been made in the subconscious before it's translated into the decision to act. That's when the dopamine cycle kicks in but it's the emotional triggers that underlie the addiction. The dopamine cycle is what keeps it going.

Very interesting that you say the negative emotion is what becomes associated with the reward of orgasm. It explains this "I deserve porn because I've had a bad day" mindset. How weird is that? We wouldn't think "I deserve sex with my spouse because I've had a bad day". You'd think "that's not fair to the other partner to be expected to provide sex as a pick-me-up". There's no mutuality in such a transaction.

Which also brings me on to the strip bars. My husband said he felt lonely and depressed so he went to a strip bar. WTF? I mean, all he was doing was having an overpriced drink watching an underpaid woman expose her vagina to a room full of leering men. How depressing is that? Well, I would find it depressing that someone reduced to a little performing animal had to entertain a bunch of leering slime balls, who, just like him would be pretending to their partner's they'd been somewhere else. "I had to work late" or "The train was delayed" or whatever.

But you're right. It's the negative emotions that need to be addressed. They were my partner's triggers too.

Of course looking at porn isn't sex!! It's amazing how many guys seem to conflate the two because as you say, it's not sexual. It's devoid of intimacy. In fact it's an avoidance of intimacy. So much is missing, breathing, warmth, touch, reciprocity, response etc. It's a whole body experience, not solely about genital stimulation. That's why porn addicts become lousy lovers. They lose the plot. That's why the men's sections are so depressing. So many of them seem to have no idea about mutuality. It's like their idea of sex is replicating a porn scene. How wrong!

Objectified1, I'm really glad that you are making good progress as individuals and as a couple. Long may your improvements continue to grow.

 

[uglyducklingagain]

objectified1 what a fantastic explanation! It makes so much sense. My husband is exactly the kind of guy that feels he needs a reward for having a bad day. Whether it be having a drink, buying something or using porn, he thinks he deserves a treat for being slighted by anyone or anything. This is truly a light bulb moment for me, and I am going to print out your post for him to read. Of course him being bipolar also compounds the situation. I have to remember his brain is wired differently, but he can learn to control his impulsive behavior. When he knows he's done wrong and I confront him with it, he will do his best to correct the behavior. It does make me feel like his mother though, which I hate. I feel like I'm always having to clean up his messes. The divorce rate is very high for those with bipolar. The fact that after 38 years we are still together is a feat in and of itself. It's a Christmas miracle. LOL!

He is on medication and it helps to slow him down and control his impulsiveness. He no longer has control or access to our finances. Because of the antibiotics he has been on, he hasn't had a drink in over 3 months. He did pour himself a small glass of wine last evening. He took two sips and dumped it out. He said it tasted awful. I know he's not using porn, but we need to talk about it more...his triggers, my triggers. His illness ended up putting a damper on our progress. I really wish we could go to counselling. I broached the subject again and he seems willing. He is trying to recover physically before he attempts talking with someone. Anyway...I digress. Thank you for that post. All of you ladies write so eloquently and have so much information to pass along. Thank you all for your wisdom, courage and strength. We really are charting new territories.

 

[Objectified1]

I think the whole thing isn't really that they thing they need a reward when they have a bad day but more they need stress relief. Although the reward mentality could be part of it. Really for a man with this issue to improve he has to learn how to de-stress and deal with stuff like this normally. Porn has become their de-stressor. I am so thankful this has been a help to you  ladies! I know it opened my eyes big time and that's exactly why I wanted to share it.  You know how when we've had a hard day we need time to ourself, or to get in a hot tub? Well that's what his orgasm is being used as ....unfortunately he's turned it into an addiction. So where a glass of wine for the normal person can help relax here and there, the alcoholic uses it to the extreme. So the PA doesn't just use the odd orgasm for some ahhhhh that's better stress relief, but excessively to the point that they cant have that part for us anymore. I believe God mad orgasm and aex to be stress relieving but coupled with loving intimacy! Not like this where a PA has taken it out of context. He should see his wife and share intimacy with her and the result is sharing in pleasure, euphoria and stress relief.  Sad how our world warps everything.

 

[uglyducklingagain]

Yes I understand what you are saying objectified1 and maybe reward isn't the correct word. He told me that porn was exciting and a great fantasy. That's why he was all into the porn subs...constantly pouring over entertainment sights and checking out actresses. If he even mutters an actress' name, I completely shut him out. I suppose to him porn would be a stress reliever from a life that he feels is mundane. He's never satisfied with what he has. He gets bored easily and expects me to keep him entertained most of the time. I wish I had all the money he has spent on hobbies...flitting from one thing to the next trying to finding something to satisfy whatever he feels is missing. This is the core of my pain. I feel as though I have never been enough for him. I have told him emphatically if I am not enough for him, please tell me and let me go. Some people can go their whole life and never be satisfied with what is right in front of their face.

 

[Objectified1]

I hear what your saying ugly duckling. It's the same way I feel. I'm not sure with your hubby and of course I can't be totally sure with mine either, but I think maybe I'm starting to believe that it's not about the "other women" or that I'm not enough. It's about whatever will work to get more of those feel good  drugs into their brains and to distract them as well. The Counsellor told me for most PA's if not all, their wife is usually a trigger herself for them to regress into porn and acting out.  Why? not because she's not important but because she is the most important thing to him. So when he has disappointed (or thinks he has )or not measured up or had a disagreement with you, he's feeling tremendous stress,  and there you go,he's triggered for that "release" and the cycle starts. If he allows it that is. So that's a good explanation for why it's not "you" he's using. He's trying to escape you and the stress he feelsmcoking from you or your relationship BECAUSE he loves you. I'm starting to understand and wow, it's making me feel so much  better.

 

[Emerald Blue]

There's definitely something being stimulated in the reward centre of the brain. That's where I think the overlap between the emotional triggers and the dopamine process comes together. Some men, probably most, use porn as an escape from negative emotions but some also admit to using it as a celebration or a reward for something going well. They got promoted - celebrate with porn. They passed an exam - celebrate with porn. And what's more they use porn for the negative mood triggers at time and as a reward for "good" things happening at others. My husband tended to use porn when he felt alone or abandoned or when he was depressed. He doesn't admit to celebrating with porn but then he doesn't admit to anything if he can help it.

Rows and relationship difficulties, yes I can see that as an emotional trigger too. Shortly after d day - when there was a lot of heated discussion, as we can all no doubt testify - he admitted that he felt triggered to escape by seeking porn. He didn't do it, though, but it was interesting that he observed his thoughts.

Yet at the same time, porn was a sort of "hobby" too. It wasn't completely random activity and it wasn't always triggered. He did make time for porn. He did have planned and predictable times set aside for porn. If he couldn't have internet porn, as with the porn filters,  he'd put the effort into getting around the restrictions so he could carry on using it. So there is an element of non-triggered habitual use. The triggers occur when either porn isn't available or they've quit. If they know they can have it when they want to use it, if they have a secret stash or alternative source, then there are no triggers. They set aside the time in advance or take advantage of an unexpected opportunity. When the habit is in full swing, it's not like there's this miserable guy who gets triggered and uses. It's when the porn isn't there that the triggers are felt. Or after quitting.

I think the process is back-to-front during the full blown porn habit. It's like the have their scheduled porn sessions which triggers their negative emotions. But even before that stage it's "Porn? Fuck, yeah! Orgasm! Awesome! More porn? Bring it on!" Early on I doubt they see anything negative in it. Until they train their brains to expect it and then it fails to deliver the same high, by which time the addictive changes in the brain have already taken place.

I'm amazed at how something as dumb as porn, something as tasteless, as artless, as formulaic and predictable can create so many problems, and serious problems too.

 

[Objectified1]

EB, I am not sure, of course, how it differs for each and I'm sure it does greatly. To my knowledge, and we all know how that goes with a PA, my husband didn't have specific times set aside for porn, but he did habitually use. There is also a cycle. The shame cycle. So a man gets triggered to seek out that release/relief. Goes to his usual porn, acts out. When all is said and done he feels better in the moment and doesn't think about what's wrong with it or even care. Afterwards guilt and shame come in and he may not even realize why but he feels even worse and even more like a pile of crap. Then restarts the cycle. I would think that the whole thing started as then just getting somewhat of a relief from the pressures of life and then it turned into the addiction.!addicts most definitely plan around when they can get their "fix". It's not compulsion. It's the cycle which goes like this - trigger - preoccupation - ritual - acting out - shame - back to the start. There's of course, a lot more to it  then that.