Is it true?

[Lauralou82]

Hi ladies.

I haven't posted in a while - firstly that troll put me off and secondly I needed a bit of processing time as I needed to deal with my cptsd responses to the situation.

My partner swears he hasn't PMOd or MOd since D-day a couple of days be for new year. After a couple of weeks things got really good, his sensitivity had increased and presence had improved. Unfortunately that didn't last long - he got really moody and I felt he resented me. He would only engage physically once he decided he wanted an orgasm and when he did that's what it was all about.... He always goes straight in for the big finish, very little build up and the idea of any foreplay for me and he would rather not bother at all.

Now I'm not sure if there's been some kind of flatline issue but we've nearly went our separate ways a couple of times these past few months.... And it's basically come down to broken trust and his resentment of not being trusted (with little effort to regain what he broke) as if my unconditional trust that he took for granted and disregarded is some kind of entitlement that I am denying him!

So.... To what's playing on my mind now.... I'm pretty sure he slipped back and reinstated his solo sex life as for the past month things bottomed out completely. Although he's been more open to making sure I'm satisfied (even though sex is still all about whether or not he's going to get there) he was unable to finish for about 3-4 weeks up until yesterday. Sesnsitivity has drastically decreased again and that feeling of being a chore is back. Could this be flatline? Why did the sensitivity drop?

I'm definitely not a once a week kind of woman! I really miss the idea of sex always being on the table and just being able to have fun with it and build up over time

 

[aquarius25]

That sounds terrible. I think the best thing for you guys would be communication first. If you guys can't get on the same page and communicate then there is no point in working things out because who wants to be in a relationship where there is no communication and only self centered actions, porn aside that is not a way to live.
Again that is just my opinion you need to decide what is right for you. It could be a flatline but you will never know until communication starts to happen.

 

[stillme]

If he isn't willing to be open and  honest and if he is treating you in a way that you don't like, it may be time to make some hard decisions. Recovering the relationship with a fully engaged, hard working recovering porn addict is really hard, so trying to recover with someone that isn't dedicated would be a non-starter for me.

It might be time to start thinking a bit selfishly and think about what you want and need at this point.

 

[AppleJack]

This morning I was watching a video and the guy said that (not to minimise the infidelity part of the behavior) that betrayal trauma is caused to the spouse not by the actions itself but by the denial, their inability to accept reality and to cope with reality as it is. When they manipulate reality, they are lying and dishonest and you can't connect. Addiction is an attachment disorder that doesn't mix with healthy relationships.
Being clean doesn't stop the betrayal trauma from continuing to happen. So basically in your situation, the trauma is still occurring because your partner is in denial (regardless or whether he is abstaining or not), this is why you feel so hypervigiliant etc about the situation, you have no safety because the trauma is still occurring.

Sobriety is a by product of recovery. He's not in recovery from what you've said, and so he's not sober, he's still in addiction.

Shift the focus to yourself, what do you need to feel safe right now? Maybe it's disconnecting from him for a while, sexually and emotionally so that you can stop feeling like his addiction is making you crazy? Making big decisions might be too much for you right now but you can certainly make smaller ones to help you start healing.

 

[Lauralou82]

I'm hoping it doesn't come to that!

We are three months in now so it's still early days. Communication is slowly improving but it's at a snail's pace and he's admitted it feels like I'm intruding when I try to talk about it - which I think just goes to show how much having a solo sex life has effected him. I thi k he is starting to see it too.

He was mortified at the weekend when I was angry and upset and asked him what other stuff he'd been searching for when I'd not been good enough for him.... That was a look I hadn't seen since d -day.... I think if I had been doing things I was so ashamed of that I'd be quite paranoid - expecting other people to dislike me as much as I would myself. That's a big thing - huge! He's terrified I'm going to tell everybody (not that I should be censored which I find unacceptable!) But he's so scared that it is effecting his attitude and behaviour.... I would say as long as you're not doing anything wrong, lying or being hurtful in any other way then what are you scared of?

I don't get how he can't see that my lack of trust and his own fear is a direct result of his actions and choices..... They're consequences. Surely accepting those and dealing with it in a mature way is actually taking responsibility?

I'm still not sure.... I said I'd give it three months and their has been improvement.... But there has also been secrecy, lies and a massive lack of consideration while he's been licking his wounds. I know he didn't mean to mess himself up and it was long before he met me... But I didn't do it to him either and I'm the one who got betrayed... I'm just so disappointed he is not the man I thought he was but rather a selfish teen jerking off and being deceptive. On the other hand maybe it's his time to grow up?

He said he's going to do some research and talk to me tonight... Here goes!

 

[Emerald Blue]

Indiepeaches, I'm sorry to read about your current difficulties. I will reply more fully later on. For now I will say this. I recognise A LOT of what you're experiencing right now. Three months into recovery is very early days, believe me! You're probably going through the worst months right now. For me, it was probably 8-9 months in before I began to move into the next phase of recovery.

I recognise the feeling that trust is like a sort of obligation you are expected to have, like a duty or responsibility. My partner just didn't get it. He thought he could go down the route of denial/partial truth/admit to the bare minimum when it's impossible to deny, all the while agreeing to be "honest" whilst knowingly lying... I had to persevere with my attitude that I wasn't standing for any shit regardless of how angry he got or whether he thought I believed him or not. It took almost 6 months just to get to the point where full discovery/disclosure had been reached and even now I don't believe I know the whole story. At some point I had to draw a line and I had to accept that honesty doesn't come naturally to him. In fact, his set point is to conceal and to lie if he's in any danger of being rumbled. I have to accept that for him learning to be honest is a slow process and it will never feel complete.

Trust is something that has to be earned and it only happens when he can prove his trustworthiness over time. Trusting is a slow process. Forgiveness is a slow process too. They seem to progress (or regress) in tandem.

Masturbation is a thorny subject for me. I know my partner started masturbating several months ago and it was as if he was sabotaging our sexual relationship by doing it. So we'd get together and he couldn't respond or wouldn't be in the mood. Deja vu. I knew he wasn't able to access porn but it was like being back then. Did he admit to it? No. And I knew he wouldn't. But the worst part was he wouldn't even admit to it. I asked. He lied. I knew he'd lie. If he had just admitted to it it would have saved us both a lot of tension and relationship stress. But as I say, I know he is incapable of telling the truth about many things and I knew he'd never be honest about masturbation.

Recovery is not a smooth process. It never works out like the self help books would let you believe. Working out whether the problem is a "flatline" is neither here nor there. It should bear no relation to whether someone can be honest or not. A lot of recovery jargon can be used as a narrative to disguise other issues. If your values over the presence of porn in your relationship or your home, or over lying and honesty are being breached, it's got nothing to do with whether or not he is "flatlining". It's probably more likely he just doesn't have the communication skills or he prefers to hide behind omissions and deceptions not because the truth is "bad" (and I don't believe masturbation is necessarily "bad" in itself) but because he cannot be true to himself and cannot express himself without fear of rejection, ridicule or judgment.

No easy answers, I'm afraid. To recover both partners have to be in it for the long haul and it's not for the faint hearted.

 

[Lauralou82]

I don't think masturbation is bad when sex with a partner isn't an option. However in a situation where the decision to masturbate will both undo progress and impact on your relationship as well as having a negative impact on the partner who has chosen to stick by them then in those circumstances then yes, I believe it is. A man's penis doesn't blackmail its owner to rub it to orgasm despite what our partners would have us believe!

I never had a problem with porn in a relationship before but it's a deal breaker for me now forever.

My partner was supposed to be doing some research while I was at work this evening so we could talk this evening.... I told him I was confused and didn't know where he was at and asked him to have a check in with me rather than risk a runaway train of thought. Now here I am, feeling pretty crappy, he's snoring his head off and I'm no further forward..... So yeah - the talking didn't happen.

 

[Kimba]

Hi Indiepeaches, Im still in early stages as well and we are constantly skirting around the issues and then wham outta the blue something will set me off and Im flat out going on about Porn etc etc, sometimes just to bring the subject up I will read something from that site Fight for love, different articles just to try and get him to feel empathy with what has gone on in our relationship since day dot... Im not sure if that would work for you but he seems to have turned a corner lately, I actually have stopped checking his phone and feel confident that he is finally starting to get what I am on about, I think the biggest thing he dealt with, was the shame of it all... But I have said, dont feel that way, I dont blame him so much as  I blame the easy access to the shit, I blame the Porn industry for making it sooooo additive and even the mainstream media for injecting it into our lives and making out like it is ok, its normal NOT, everyone does it, NOT!!!  I have been soo down over it all, let him now how you feel, you dont have to cry all over the house but maybe just mention little things here and there, he may roll his eyes, but if he's like my partner, he thinks about it later...  He told me how many orgasams I've had since we have been together all proud etc about it lol, I sent him a message and said the amount you have had with me, and then double it for the amount you have had with your internet lovers... WOOOOH that really cut through BIG TIME, keep on fighting xx

 

[Emerald Blue]

Indiepeaches, just to clarify my position on masturbation in the context of recovery from porn addiction, I fully understand that porn addicts are unlikely to have a healthy relationship with masturbation especially when it had become an integral part of their addiction. The porn viewing is one part of the habit, masturbation is the other. Porn addicts typically don't have a healthy relationship with their bodies and with their sexuality. I understand that to engage in masturbation before developing a healthy sexuality is more likely to set back progress. From a partner's perspective, I'm more concerned about the impact on our relationship and it certainly does have an inevitable impact on our sexual relationship.

As for how the addict sees masturbation, that's another matter entirely. Porn addicts very often don't understand the consequences of their behavior. They didn't during the active addiction period and it's not as if the scales fall from their eyes on d day either. My partner is still actually coming to terns with the many ways that porn impacted upon him. The greater the distance (in time) the more altered his perceptions are. It actually takes a lot more than d day and an expressed commitment to change for the addict to fully realise how they have been living and how unhealthy some of their attitudes had become through the insidious habit of masturbating to pornography.

I don't believe my partner had a healthy, adult relationship with his own sexuality. His potential for developing his addiction to porn was evident very early on in adolescence with his habitual  masturbation habit which he used as an escape from the chaos of family life. It was later supplemented with pornography. He was unable to form healthy attachments as a child and as a consequence he was unable to form the usual teenage boyfriend/girlfriend relationships. His first 'encounter' with a woman's body was at a topless bar. Whereas most people build upon real life relationships in their early years to develop relationship skills and to develop as individuals, my partner was actually building on a slow progression of acting out and effectively bypassing the human/relationship element.

Fast forward to the present day. He still has great difficulty in talking about sexual matters, and obvious discomfort talking about relationship issues. It's no surprise to me that he reverted to masturbation and it's predictable that he wouldn't admit to it. It's also in line with his attitude to our relationship when he was actively using porn in that he isn't capable of seeing that his behavior has consequences in how it impacts on our relationship sexually and emotionally. He is very probably still of the opinion that if he conceals the truth effectively then it didn't happen and as long as it's a secret then it can't make any difference. Obviously this is a childish and make believe way of thinking and quite backward in terms of his recovery.

The only thing that I can do is persevere by setting my one example of openness and initiating the difficult conversations - which makes him very uncomfortable. There is no option of sweeping it under the rug. If he denies what he has done then there's not a lot I can do about it other than stating my own perspective on how it hinders progress for both of us and that lying isn't a good foundation for a relationship.

Ultimately, my partner's recovery is up to him. It's not up to me. If he masturbates he may realise that it has a negative impact on his own recovery, or on the relationship's recovery.

There are a lot of issues raised here. I can only talk about the M word for now. When all else fails, we have to concentrate on our own recovery as a partner.

 

[stillme]

I think what I have come to realize is that recovery from porn and recovery of the relationship only comes when the addict decides they no longer want porn. Simply resisting porn because they also want a relationship, or want a relationship more than they want porn isn't enough. They are always going to be fighting with porn and sometimes they will lose that fight.

My husband didn't really want porn, he wanted the escape from reality that porn provided. As a result, giving up porn was the easy part of his recovery. The harder part was learning how to handle stress and the realities of life in an adult way that didn't bring up more problems for himself as well as the family. As soon as he recognized porn was causing more stress, not less - letting go was easy. That doesn't mean recovery was easy, just that not ever looking at porn again wasn't a struggle.

If you husband is struggling with porn itself, you may have to determine for yourself what you want in a relationship. It is going to be hard on the relationship anyway, but the threat of porn still being there will make it that much more difficult.

 

[Emerald Blue]

Stillme, everything you say about your husband's relationship with porn is very true for my husband too. Quitting porn isn't just about quitting porn, it's about facing up to the realities of life that porn conveniently masked or provided an escape from. Abstinence isn't recovery nor is it about repairing erections. For my husband, quitting porn was the easiest part. In the first year or so - and recovery does seem to be on terms of years and not months - it's typically the (female) partner who takes on the role of caring for the relationship. At the earlier stages of recovery I don't think most addicts have the ability or insight to tend to the relationship other than quitting, learning to communicate and finding the courage within themselves to disclose or otherwise learn how to handle that their life partner now knows the reality of their addiction behaviors.

Something I have learned from the Erotic Intelligence book, the first cornerstone of recovery is self knowledge and being able to stand your ground. It seems obvious and you'd think we'd all have 'got it' years ago but it's been an eye opener to realise that as a partner I was not sufficiently confident in my relationship to state my needs or tackle my partner's porn addiction assertively and in line with my values. He certainly wasn't capable of communicating what was going on in his mind or in his life and so developed unhealthy coping mechanisms. So both of us were amiss in our own self knowledge and self expression. I now see that the reasons for his secrecy, his lying, his need for 'escape' and distraction stems from never having learned to speak up for himself or assert his needs, or even express himself and develop his own identity, and it all goes back to his family of origin quite clearly. Once you see lying, secrecy and omission in this context it makes sense absolutely. He probably understands this part very well but he has not yet learned the skills of stating what he wants or needs, and he is extremely guarded and cautious in what he says. If he can find a role to hide behind, he can cope. But roles and masks don't cut it in a long term relationship.

So what am I doing about it?

OK, the MO issue. Perhaps this is something he has to face at some point and find out for himself how it may impact on our shared sexual relationship. Only he knows for sure and even then, given his history, he might not see it. Secondly, can he communicate more easily about masturbation or does it remain his naughty little secret. Obviously it's the latter. So there's a 99.9% probability he's lying. How does he feel, in his own mind, about his lying? Bearing in mind that to him, lying was perfectly "normal" and justified. He guessed that I wouldn't like the truth and creating conflicting in his mind is a justifiable reason to lie. He sees lying as the lesser evil, which isn't evil or wrong in his mind. He believes it's the 'right' thing to do. He can lie with a clear conscience and what's more, he gets to repeat the behavior as often as he wants because he's protected himself against potential fall out. All this is wrong wrong wrong!! But this is addict-think and it's very difficult to penetrate.

So, what I can do at this point is to set the example and role model the changes I want to see, and this begins with my own recovery process. Taking the first cornerstone of self knowledge and becoming a differentiated adult, I need to learn to express my needs, wants, desires, likes, dislikes etc, in all aspects of life. Not necessarily to do with our recovery from porn addiction or within the relationship but with aspects of my daily life. Especially my daily life on civvy street, in the home, what I wear, what I read, where I go, etc. For too long I relied on his 'approval' and that upsets me. When things went weird in our relationship I guess I felt I had to tread carefully so as not to upset him. I mean, I didn't have to pay for his porn habit by sacrificing my own sexuality, but I did. I had to keep the peace. Yet if I'm honest, if someone pointed this out I'd have said "of course I'm my own woman, of course I know my own mind, of course I'm assertive" etc etc, and perhaps outside of the relationship I was these things but within my marriage, well that's a different story. I was in denial. I was caught up in the classic 'learned helplessness' scenario. No doubt about it. So I've had to take a good hard look at myself. Since this book, suddenly I can clearly see that I have some fundamental work to do on myself. In time, he might get it. I can role model the changes I want to see, but for now it's my own self knowledge that I need to work on.

Recovery is hard work. Frustrating, definitely. Non linear and unpredictable. We've all just got to keep going but we can only control our own behavior and thoughts. Not theirs.

 

[Kimba]

So much of what u say Emerald resonates with me, I agree totally  I think something inside my partner has finally clicked and he really gets it ! Also after the years of lies and secrets it's time for him to finally commit to US, he certainly seems a different man lately so I'm hoping beyond hope that he has turned a corner, I do till have sad moments where I think I should of pushed harder but I think finding this website had given me so much more understanding of what he has been through And why he turned to it but also on how I can feel better about myself and gain perspectives on this shitty addiction.  I'm not sure if it's totally real yet but it's the little stuff is happening again and he's not annoyed with me over silly things like before. I do as well think he is really self conscious and has had massive self esteem issues which led him to his secret life anyway thanks for listening to my crap and I totally support u girls on here, whatever gets u through I'm for it, Real Love with real people  is the only way xx