Please help part 2

[Devastated72]

Sorry for another post basically about the same thing but it?s 5.30am and I haven?t slept and have spent the night crying again!
The last couple of posts I did were about me finding evidence that my husband had not stopped porn at all since d-day. Even though he swore blind he hadn?t done anything. The first lot of evidence I found was loads of shemale porn sites and then individual shemales in our town and also live chat/cams and even shemale escorts. When I confronted this to my husband he swore that it must have been in his search history from
Before d-day. My gut had been telling me he hadn?t in fact quit and it was also telling me he was lying to my face about when he had searched these latest sites. He even sent me heartfelt texts promising me that this was all before d-day. Then a couple of days later I found all the porn sites and the dates he had been on them. As I had suspected they were all from the week before.
This discovery hurt more than d-day as he had spent the past 4 months looking me in the eye promising he was Clean. To know that the man you have been married to for 24 years can lie to your face is absolutely soul destroying and heart breaking.
This happened about a month ago and since then I have tried to take each day as it comes. But I know he is still using porn. I can?t prove it but I just know. I have given up asking him how he?s coping and if he?s still clean because he will say that he is clean. I just know he is using and that he is deleting the evidence. He has been attending sex addicts anonymous for the past 3 weeks (once a week) but I just feel this is him making out he is working on his recovery. Nothing about him has changed. I have a few times asked to check his phone and he has willingly handed it over. But he does it so smugly and he?s so cocky about it like he knows he?s still using porn but knows he?s deleted the evidence. When I last looked and handed it back to him he said smugly ? so did you find anything?? And I replied ?no? and he said ?see I told you I?m not doing anything? but it wasn?t in an assuring way it was like he was so pleased with himself because he is getting away with it.
I constantly feel betrayed, used and feel I?m being a total naive fool.
I?m trying to convince myself that this is an addiction and this is what?s making my husband do all of this. But there?s got to be a line where he must know what he is doing and that the addiction part of it is a convenient excuse.
I?ve given up looking at his phone and asking him how he is because whatever he says I don?t believe it.
Like I?ve said before I?m scared about what the future will hold. I can barely look him in the eye and when I do I feel nothing but hate and anger and extreme sadness. The thought of even being near him repulses me. I don?t think these feelings will ever go away and think that our marriage is broken beyond repair. But part of me thinks. What if he is telling the truth? 24 years of being with someone is hard to let go. But I?m constantly battling with do I end this marriage or keep going hoping that my gut feeling is totally wrong?
What if we separate and he has been honest and is in recovery?
I know, well I think I know, that if I had proof that he was still looking and masturbating then I would have a solid answer and separate. I can?t trust him but I can?t fully trust myself 100%. I know I keep repeating myself. But I know deep down he hasn?t quit, I can just tell but I need evidence to show to him. As like what happened before he lied and lied about his recent search history saying it was before d-day knowing it had been the week before. How can I ever trust him after that. Like I said (sorry I?m kind of thinking out loud) if he can lie repeatedly to my face knowing it?s complete bullshit and then even when I did confront him with the dated evidence he still lied saying he hadn?t. Then he said he must of but couldn?t remember, then he said he did do it but couldn?t help it and he?s Ill and then the final excuse was he did it to see if he was still addicted. I said to him why then did he have to go on numerous sites daily if he was just checking. He?s treating me like a piece of crap. He can?t love me or respect or care for me if he can repeatedly lie and treat me this way.
If this was a friend this was happening to I would tell them to definitely leave the lying bastard so why can?t I do the same for myself.
Part of me is hoping that somehow I will trust, respect and want to be near him again but at this stage I just can?t see it happening.
I understand People reading this can?t decide for me but I would appreciate any insight on it all.

 

[i_miss_my_ bf]

What is keeping you with him? You are worthy of love and honesty. We just started our reboot and I'm not sure I can overcome it. If I found out he was still doing it, I don't think I could bear the pain.

From one woman to another, I really feel that you may want to focus on why you're subjecting yourself to this instead of why he's not changing. Prior to my relationship with my boyfriend, I was married to an alcoholic for 15 years and finally had to face my codependency and denial. It hurts so so much.
.I know, I can hear your raw pain in your words. At this point, I think you have to save yourself and your own sweet heart. You deserve to be free of the sadness and anxiety. Hugs.

 

[malando]

That's really sad to hear, D72. The fact that he's still using and lying about it to your face is not encouraging. If you are still thinking about working this out with him, I think some tough ultimatums need to be given. Tell him you can tell he's lying, and no amount of denial is going to talk you around. Tell him he is going to have to pull off the mother of all turn-arounds to get you to trust him again - and that every lie puts another nail in the trust coffin. I think you should also tell him you are assessing your options regarding him/you moving out and what future separation looks like. He needs the fear of god put into him, so to speak. And if potentially losing you isn't enough to motivate him (to tell the truth at the very least) then I'm sorry, but he isn't showing you the same love you show for him. And that, can't be tolerated.

I feel for you, I really do. I can't abide lying in relationships. It infuriates me. One thing I never did when I was using P was lie about it. My partner wasn't even the one troubled by my porn use - I decided for myself that it was bad news, and I persuaded her to stop watching it too. We no longer have this poison in our lives, and I believe porn changes all relationships for the worse - regardless of the sexual-liberty BS people try to attach to it. As Josh Radnor put it: "Porn kills love". It takes away empathy and tenderness, reduces people to body parts, encourages exploitation, kills appreciation and interest. Your husband needs to read up on this and learn about what it's doing to you, your relationship and his own brain. Porn will destroy him if he isn't careful. And it will do it one day at a time, and he won't even notice what's happening. It's takes the joy out of everything you do.

 

[Devastated72]

Thank you for your replies to my post. For the life of me I couldn?t remember how to reply or post but have obvs figured it out now. I really do value your advice and opinions and have read them over and over trying to make sense of this whole mess. Like I said in my previous post if I was reading this out about a friend I would definitely tell them to leave the marriage as it?s plain and clear that this man has no intentions of coming clean and sorting this out. So I sit here every day wondering why I still am. And the only thing I can think of is fear! Fear of the unknown, fear of not knowing if I will regret the decision, fear that I will not be able to cope, fear of finances, fear for the upset of my children. There are so many what ifs but when I think about it all as an outsider and logically I can see that I?ve spent my whole married life doing what is right for others. When I think about it my whole married life I?ve been in a sexless marriage and been distraught constantly about this, I have been like a single parent doing everything with my kids growing up as husband didn?t want to do anything, have tried to keep a hold of my mental health and take the meds and do the counselling, fight for my disabled sons education, my daughters mental and physical health. Blimey the list goes on and on and all of it points to the fact that this has all been a one sided marriage and a parent bringing their kids up alone despite being married for over 20 years. My husband has participated in the marriage and child rearing by being present and that?s about it. So why am I so scared of leaving??? I keep telling myself that I?ve been alone for so long anyway so what difference will it make. And the only thing that comes
To mind is stability. But even then my life hasn?t been really ever stable. I?ve lost count how many times we have moved house (we rent), we?ve emigrated and come
Back again. Both my parents have passed but without trying to sound disrespectful they weren?t very supportive. I have a close relationship to my brother and his partner but they live 2 hours away and I have 3 really close best friends, one suffers with severe mental health, one lives two hours away and the other lives in Australia!!! So I guess I?ve always kind of been alone. So I don?t know why I can?t make that jump and leave???!!!!
I?m sorry to go on and on and I am using these posts as a kind of therapy for myself, putting it out there and reading it back to see how simple it really should be. But mainly because I appreciate the support and advice I receive from the replies.
I have in the past few days composed a letter to give to my husband but haven?t yet but I would like to add it to this post for anyone to read and offer advice on it please.
Like I?ve said before and say it in the letter, I know he is still using and lying but I think deep down I want to give him yet another chance to change even tho I know he won?t. I told a friend that once I have further evidence of him still lying I will kick him out but she said why do I need more evidence isn?t all this evidence enough. He lied to your face whilst you had his phone in front of you both with websites and dates. If he can lie to your face with all that then you don?t need any more evidence. You just need courage!!!
So I guess I?m here again because deep down I know I need to leave this marriage and I can?t keep hoping that my Hub loves me enough to change as all he?s had is my love trust and support and that has made no difference whatsoever.
So please. Again sorry to keep going over and over what is in fact the same thing but please could anyone offer me any support or advice and if anyone has been where I am now let me know what they did and how it?s worked out. I would really appreciate it.
Thank you so much. Oh and I?ll post the letter I?m deciding to send as well. X

 

[Devastated72]

This is the letter......
Where do I start? How do I explain how I feel? I am feeling worse as each day goes by.
So, to begin with let?s talk honesty.
As you know, all these years I have had an underlying gut feeling that something was wrong. And all these years I was convinced it was because of me, and I still can?t comprehend how you could let me believe this for so long for your selfish needs.
I still have these gut feelings, I had them after d-day and although you were literally begging that you had stayed clean I did actually believe you but still had these nagging gut feelings that you weren?t clean.
Well as you and I know my gut feelings were spot on. And since then I still have these gut feelings and it?s about time I learnt to trust them.
You are still using. You are NOT clean and don?t you dare lie to me and say you are.
You just don?t get it do you?!
The biggest hurt is the lies, it?s always been about the betrayal and lies. Yet you still continue to lie To my face every single day.
It doesn?t matter that you?re going to your addicts meetings every week, or that you are trying to get healthy. None of it matters when you are still lying and using.
You may be letting me search your phone and will keep it near me whilst you are in the bathroom.
But you obviously think I?m
Not worth anything to you because I know you are still lying.
There are plenty of times you are alone with your phone, obviously I know you can delete and hide stuff from me as well and besides you are a porn addict. You?re not brain dead, you have an imagination and I?m sure you have plenty of memories and images to jerk off to,
I am not a naive piece of shit you can treat like this.
You cannot overcome this addiction if you are lying to yourself and lying to your addicts group and most importantly lying to me.
I?ve said all along that I don?t want us to separate and throw over 20 years of marriage away.
I was willing to support, trust and love you.
But you obviously don?t love me, how could you when you continue to do what you?re doing?
Almost every minute of every day all this betrayal and hurt is going round in my head, stomach and heart. Hoping that you will be honest with me. Hoping that you will admit you?re addiction is bigger than you thought and open up to me.
Every day that goes by that you are still lying hurts more than the day before.
You said in one of you?re letters that you feel you let everyone down and you never follow through or finish what you start.
You weren?t wrong!!!
In the beginning after d-day you paid me more attention in the couple of weeks following than you have the whole time we?ve been together, you left me little gifts and notes to show me you were thinking about me and loving me everyday, bloody hell you even bought me a bunch of flowers, even Our daughter said you must have really fucked up to be bringing me flowers!
And as you?ve said, you never follow through or finish what you started, it?s not that I expected you to continue with the gifts and notes for a whole year like you had promised. But you obviously got tired and fed up of thinking of me everyday, it was too hard because you had to force yourself to consider me and my feelings. It?s plain to see that you obviously haven?t had me at the top of your list to love maybe for the whole time we?ve been together. Like most things you put it in the ?too difficult ? box and carried on in your selfish ways.
All I believe is that your selfish needs are worth more than mine.
That you?ve decided all this is too hard so you will carry on with your addiction and convince yourself that I believe you are clean.
You are thinking that as long as I think you?re dealing with this then our marriage will survive.
But do you know what, all you are doing is convincing me that you don?t give a shit about our marriage or me. How could you? How could you say I mean everything to you and that you will do anything and everything to put this all right when all the time you are still using.
In actual fact the term ?using? doesn?t do it justice. What it means is that you are still jerking off to freaks and totally fucking me and our marriage up.
I trusted you and believed you back in December. Then in April when I had proof that you were still using, it was only then that I knew my gut feeling was very real. All those months of lying to my face telling me every time I asked if you were clean and ok. Promising me with all you?re heart you wasn?t doing anything and saying you hadn?t felt the need. You even lied to my face when I had your phone in my hand with the evidence right in front of you!!!! OMFG how can you be so at ease feeding me this bullshit. How the fuck is that love???
After reading this you will still say you haven?t been up to anything, will still say you are working hard on you?re addiction. Still say you are trying by going to meetings and giving me you?re phone. Then you will say ?what do I want you to do??
The answer is I don?t know! It?s not my fucking addiction.
What I would like you to do is talk to me and open up ffs.
You cannot be addicted to something all your life and quit as easily as you are making out.
You aren?t acting like you are quitting a life long addiction, you are more closed to me than ever. Part of this whole process was to be truthful and open with me, talk to me about everything. Unless I bring it up you don?t talk about it, you don?t mention your meetings, you don?t tell me how you?re dealing with it. Ffs you don?t even tell me that you love me anymore. And don?t you dare say it?s because I don?t tell you it!!!
You don?t deserve me to tell you I love you, you don?t deserve me to carry on regardless, you don?t deserve to share the same bed as me, you don?t deserve to even be in the same house as me ffs.
Remember..... all I?ve done is trust and love you. I deserve to be told ? I love you? every minute of everyday. Yet in your selfish mind you are thinking ?well she stopped telling me she loves me, why should I tell her I love her?
That is exactly what you are thinking, do not mock me further by lying about that too.
You may have hidden your vile self serving addiction from me but I still know you better than you know yourself. And while I?m covering this I will make a point of explaining that the reason you hid this from me for so long is because I never imagined in a million years that you could ever do this to me. That the man I made vows with and had 2 children with would ever lie to me daily for so long. Why would I ever think that. You were married to me and supposedly loved me and wanted to be with me. Why would I ever think that you would always choose yourself and dicks over me?????!!!!!
So now after 6 months, yes 6 months what are you going to do?
What are you going to decide and stick to.
Does your love for me and your children mean more to you than you?re addiction?
Is opening up and being honest too hard that you are willing to sacrifice our marriage?
Are you 100% committed to quit porn addiction or are you going to add it to your list of failures?
Will you decide that you would prefer to jerk off to freaks or have a real relationship with a real person?
Because If you believe you aren?t strong enough and you do want to carry on you?re life this way then at least be honest enough to tell me.
I don?t want to be single or without you but I cannot allow myself to be with you if I?m in a loveless, sexless, disloyal lie and sham of a marriage any longer.

 

[Redfire03]

Very in depth I hate your are experiencing this. I like the letter idea.m, coming from a man. We really dont understand what damage we were doing. I can say if my ex wife Expressed her feeling like you are I may have fixed the problem sooner. But all I can say is you need to be firm with him about the issue and or feelings. But I think the best thing for you is to show some actions or repercussions. Tell him you need a break. He needs to leave and understand what he must do. Dont let him come back because he has nothing. Let him come back when he has everything but you.

 

[malando]

Very powerful stuff, D72. It really lays bare the distress you're in. I think it's good for him to be hit with the full impact of his actions.

I won't tell you when is the right time to give up on your marriage because I think every person needs to find the time to be ready and sure. If there is a part of you that still needs to be more sure, take more time, give him one more chance - then that is your choice to make. If you know you must feel like you did your absolute best before leaving, then that is your truth. Don't feel bad about not following other people's advice to the letter! We all want to help and support you, but you've got to do what feels right.

It is a pretty bleak situation, and the chances of this turning around are slim, but at least you are speaking your truth to your husband and giving him every chance to understand and make his own informed choices. Unfortunately, porn addiction makes many men into morons: lacking in awareness/understanding/empathy, selfish and self-indulgent, lacking in drive/determination/commitment. It's a real wrecking ball through a person's character to be a long-term porn addict. Only the most determined person can turn it around. I hope he can be one of those few. If not, you are strong enough to rebuild, you are worth more than you're getting at present.

 

[Devastated72]

Hey everyone. Sorry it?s me again with more questions and looking for more advice and opinions. 
So since my last post I?m
Still in turmoil about what to do. My hub is still going to sex addicts anonymous and still claiming he?s clean. I am also now attending therapy (there was a very long waiting list). My gut feeling was telling me that he?s was still using and is acting his usual way with no signs of withdrawal.
Last week I had to travel 200 miles to help family and deal with some
Family issues. I was away for 4 nights. I suffer with extreme anxiety and whenever I?ve had to travel more than the local shops I always have this nagging fear I will crash and die and never see family again. So I always give out loads of hugs and kisses. I haven?t even touched my hub since my 2nd D-day in April but I knew I had to do more
Than say goodbye. So I ended up kissing and cuddling him goodbye (only a little peck nothing intimate). I had been thinking about doing this for a while anyway to see if I would have any emotional reaction. Anyway he was shocked and close to tears that I had done this, but I didn?t really feel anything. I thought I would either be repulsed or a little spark would reignite. However there was just like a kinda numb non emotional feeling. Since I?ve been back home he has been kissing me before work after work and at bedtime (again just a peck) and I still don?t really feel anything. I now believe that since April when I discovered a load more evidence that he has still been lying to me about being clean and that really pisses me off but since
The first kiss and cuddle last week. He seems to be more stressed so I think he may have started his reboot journey now as he seems slightly different from before whereas before last week where he was swearing blind he has quit he showed no change in himself whatsoever. So this is the main thing that makes me believe he is actually clean now.  But with the lack of my feelings towards him I think I may be permanently broken towards an emotional marriage let alone an intimate or sexual one.
Should I keep trying and stick it out a while longer or should I end
It all? I do know though that once I?ve left I will prob have non stop thoughts about leaving and not giving the marriage longer. My husband is over the moon we are connecting more and I haven?t told him I don?t get any feelings when we hug or kiss. What I have told him tho is just because we are kissing and cuddling definitely does not mean this whole issue is sorted and fixed.
So has anybody been in the situation where I am now. And if so what were the outcomes further down the line??
Many Thanks. Xx

 

[Redfire03]

I want this to work for you. I hate this for you both.... but clearly you both care. I would knock out every option before you gave up. Shownthe man you love him and want him. Other may disagree with me... but I think if my wife had shown me more attention I wouldnt hae view porn. Not that that alone makes it acceptable  but that was me not understanding the damage I was doing.  But if it were me I would want affection and show me you want me and show me porn is bad. Show me you are real... his mind is messed up because of this. We as men never knew anything like this could happen.. and trust me we love women in flesh. This is all so new to us.

 

[Devastated72]

So here I am again. My hub has stopped acting irritable and it only lasted a matter of days. So I?m still unsure of what he is and isn?t doing. I wish I could truly believe he is clean but that nagging gut feeling is still there. I know it would be pointless asking for the whole truth because he has shown me what an incredible liar he is. I haven?t searched his phone history for months but tonight while he was in the shower I thought I?d have a peek. When looking I came across match website. Which is a
website for online dating!!! But I don?t know when it was accessed so again I can?t be sure what he?s been up to. The only way I will know for sure is if I catch him out in action or I find In his search history he?s accessed porn/dating sites and the dates they were visited. I can?t spend the rest of my life like this but I know i have to be 100% sure before I can leave. I can?t do that but at the same time I can?t live like this

 

[aquarius25]

I think you need a break from porn. That statement is such an odd one to say to a partner but I know for myself in those first 6 month it was so true. I noticed this weird thing happen ever since D day, I thought about porn all the time! I didn't go look at it or anything but it was constantly on my mind. I would be obsessing over if he was or was not viewing. I would go out and when I encountered other men in public I would wonder if they view and I would secretly analyze all men's behavior wondering about how big the problem is. I would look up statistics and it just made it worse. I read somewhere that 50% of men view so then I would be sitting somewhere and counting how man men were in the room and thinking half of these men view porn. Do they tell their partners? Is my husband home viewing right now? Basically....I was nuts!!!! I feel like I went overboard for sure. I have since noticed a lot of partners do (to varying degrees) similar things. They become obsessed with thinking about their partners addiction. At the end of the day it is his addiction. Don't let his addiction make you crazy. You need a break.

You can't make big life changing decisions when you are overwhelmed and exasperated. You need time. He needs to work on his addiction and you need to work on your healing. If you can't to a real separation then you should consider an in home separation. Sit down together and walk through what that looks like and write down agreements. Like one of you sleeps on the couch? Or in a different room? Basically become roommates for a while. Journal and have him do the same. At the end of an agreed amount of time then sit down and talk. You can share your journal with each other and see where you are at. You can figure out if this is something you want to continue to work on or if it is just too much. If you do decided that you want to stay then you need to lay down boundaries. Have consequences agreed ahead of time and I will tell you from experience to make sure they are something you can sick to. Saying you will leave if he ever does that again isn't really a good outcome because then if you decided to stay you end up breaking your word to make the relationship work. Ultimatums don't help anyone. For my husband I knew that with addiction there is always a high likelihood of relapse, so what do I need to feel safe if a relapse occurs?

The reality is there is no wrong or right answer. You can only do your best. You both deserve to be in a loving and healthy relationship. This road is not an easy one and it takes a lot out of both partners. Focus on healing and figuring out who you are, what you need, and what you want in a relationship. Communicate that to him and see if that is something at works for him and matches his needs and wants. 

 

[Devastated72]

Sorry for the late reply. I really appreciate your support and advice. So this is what?s happened since my last post. I have finished my therapy (there?s a limit of free therapy in the nhs) but I am in a mindfulness course organised by my counsellor it?s early days as I?ve only had 2 sessions out of a total of 8. Since the last post I?m still in exactly the same position...... still have the gut feeling my hub has not quit and he?s still insisting he?s beaten his addiction and is completely clean. I just can?t believe this. How on earth can he be totally clean after a lifelong addiction. And basically quit overnight by going cold turkey. He also has continued to be extremely distant despite promising so many things including opening up to me and talking daily about how he?s doing and coping. I made it clear after the 2nd D-Day that If he relapses he must tell me so I can continue to support him. But lying was a total dealbreaker. So this week I have caught him out with his lies. I wrote him a long letter as I had been asking him how he?s getting along with only phone calls with his sponsor from
SAA group (due to work commitments he?s not been able to go to the actual meetings.). He promised me he has been keeping in touch with weekly phone calls. However (the first time in a very long time) I checked his phone and saw that the one and only time he had called his sponsor was
Once in the middle of August. So after the letter I sent I had it out with him trying to explain that he had yet again lied to me. I am totally gutted and have had to stick to my boundaries by asking  him to leave. I?ve told he can leave after our children?s birthdays (middle of Oct) and told him that this gives him a month to find somewhere to live and to reflect on his (non) actions and the seriousness of his addiction. Today he has text me with virtually the same old story of he will try harder to open up to me and is sorry for lying again.  He is now home and acting like absolutely nothing has happened he?s chatting about his day at work and I?m just flabbergasted that he can carry on regardless. I?m
Just so stressed I really don?t know what to do.

 

[J01]

Tell him you want to talk to his sponsor for the purpose of confirming that he has been doing what he has supposed to have been doing. 

 

[Devastated72]

Thank you for your reply. I?m not sure if his sponsor will talk to me as he?s the leader of SAA and I?m assuming because of the confidentiality of the group he won?t. Maybe he can just confirm if Hub has been calling but I?ll wait a few weeks to give hub a chance to prove he is addressing the issues he has promised.
He is still insisting he has been clean since the 2nd D-Day but my gut tells me different but I?m sure I will not ever get an honest answer from him and as usual will have to wait until I find evidence that shows he has been using porn.
Today he sent me a text and also spoke to me when he got home that he has contacted his sponsor and has set up a weekly time and day to call him and speak about his troubles. He also said that his sponsor advised on getting the actual AA book (rather than the White SAA book that he has) and they can work on the steps more in depth. Hub has also said he has contacted the counselling service to go onto the waiting list for more therapy and has looked up a social group for people with mental health and that he will book a doctors appointment. I told him
That it is good that he is doing all these things but he has to understand that he?s said all of this before and to me it?s all just words without any action. But as before he has promised he will get help and actively address his issues. I?ve still told him he has to stay in the spare room as I really can?t have him in our bed. And if he has no consequences from his actions then he won?t think twice about doing anything wrong and maybe with the carrot of sleeping back
In our bed will help. I?m also freaking out a little as it?s like I?ve given
Him yet another chance and am I being a
Total fool doing this?

 

[bob]

Dev,

One thing you could think of is to tell his sponsor what he is telling you. One of the main points of SAA is TOTAL HONESTY. If he isn't interested in being honest with you, his sponsor should know about it. That way, he isn't telling you what is going on but knows when your husband isn't being honest with him. A big part of the 12 steps is this honesty.

Step four states:  Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

If that isn't honesty, I don't know what is. I am currently on this step and it along with step five: Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs , requires an honesty that I difficulty acquiring with myself.

Feel free to ask any questions you may have about a male perspective on this process. If I don't feel comfortable answering in the general forum, I will answer honestly in a personal message.

My thoughts are with you in this struggle. Know one should have to go through this.

Peace