Has anyone here experienced chronic fatigue which they think was linked to porn?

[Androg]

My issue is that it's not just a lack of desire to socialize or things of that nature. I have actually felt that desire increase since I stopped using pmo 76 days ago.

My issue is that I feel literally fatigued and devoid of energy so much of the time. Waking up in the morning I feel completely unrefreshed and like my body demands that I stay in bed and try to sleep more (even though it never seems to help all that much regardless of how long I try to sleep). But I have to force myself out of bed at some point and carry on with the day anyways, and my eyelids literally will want to be closed - I have to put forth some amount of effort to keep them opened.

I don't see a lot of guys talking about fatigue in this kind of context; this overwhelming fatigue that I seem to experience. So it makes me doubt that it's directly (or primarily) related to pmo. I think it's probably more likely that I have some kind of untreated sleep disorder, and to be fair I have one out of two sleep studies which have told me that I have mild to moderate sleep apnea.

But I feel like I'm at a standstill; I don't know what the fuck to do next because I haven't got pap therapy to work for me.

If sleep apnea is an issue, you may want to experiment with mouth tape.

 

[lukeman3000]

It sounds like your fatigue is more intense than mine was. The fatigue your dealing with sounds really challenging and I feel for you. That being said, I still wouldn't discount PMO as a major cause and for abstinence to possibly fix it. I suppose only time will tell if this is true or not. One thing you can't do is lose hope in recovering and use PMO as a way to cope. I say stay hopeful as it's still relatively early in your recovery.

As for a possible sleep disorder, I can't really offer any advice on what you should do there. What's helped me to fall asleep more consistently is to have a strict sleeping schedule and follow it no matter what. I wake up and sleep at the same time every day. When I do this I fall asleep quickly and get higher quality sleep. I'd recommend a book by Matthew Walker called Why We Sleep. There's a lot of good information about getting quality sleep in it.

I can't remember if I've read that book but I have read Sleep Smarter which talks about sleep hygiene and such. I'm pretty sure I know all the relevant information there is to know about sleep at this point. And none of it really seems to make too much of a difference as far as I can tell despite my best efforts. Which, of course, would make sense if I have untreated sleep apnea.

For the past couple weeks I've been having a really shitty time and feeling particularly fatigued and just like shit in general. I haven't even hardly exercised in the past two weeks. I woke up a couple days ago and my head just felt so heavy and my eyelids like they just wanted to remain closed... Sleep is very unrefreshing and I generally don't feel better at all until I get some kind of stimulant in me (caffeine and pseudoedphedrine from my Claritin D lol).

It's funny because for the past couple weeks I've slowly been rationalizing the way I feel as more likely than not being attributed to my sleep apnea. Due primarily to the severity of what I feel like I'm experiencing, and the fact that I don't see a lot of other guys talk about fatigue in this kind of context with porn. Sure I've seen guys talk about increased energy and even better sleep but I've never really seen anyone describe such a debilitating condition as what it seems like I experience on a regular basis. Thankfully I still manage to be functional enough to hold down a full-time job, but I feel like that's the most I can do.

And then I read this comment from you (Brutus) and you make me second guess myself once again lol. I feel like I'm slowly losing my mind lol; I just want to figure out why the fuck I feel like shit after I sleep and have no energy. That's literally all I want from life right now. And you actually think that porn could be responsible for this? I mean, I probably starting viewing sometime in my teens and maybe I watched it quite a bit when I was younger, but there would be times when I didn't watch at all (when I was in a relationship) so it was very on and off over the years, and most recently I had relegated it to only 1-3x/week on the weekends and for a short period of time at that. So I didn't really see my usage habits as out of control or problematic, and I wasn't viewing content that was making me feel guilt or shame or anything like that. Pretty vanilla shit.

But I mean, even still, you think it's possible that porn and dopamine dysfunction might be at the core of what I'm experiencing? I feel like this is rather unlikely especially when I know for a fact that I have untreated moderate sleep apnea, but who knows. Like you said, though, this probably isn't any reason to go back to it (porn). Even if sleep apnea is causing most or all of my problems, I know that I'm still better off without porn. In fact, it's probably because I've been abstaining from pmo for nearly 3 months now that I'm taking initiative once again to try and figure out how to treat my sleep apnea. So no pmo is definitely helping me, even if it's in an indirect manner. I had put my sleep apnea on the back burner for a couple years for a variety of reasons, but mainly because the next steps feel daunting and also money is an issue. I started looking for other ways to explain or improve my symptoms, including diet and exercise, and even pmo.

But nearly 3 months later of no pmo and I haven't really seemed to have made a dent in my symptoms but it's possible that not enough time as passed. It's also possible (and in my opinion more likely) that what I'm truly suffering from is sleep fragmentation caused by my diagnosed moderate sleep apnea. But as already stated that's no reason to go back to porn; I need all the ammo and every advantage I can get. I need to attack this from all possible angles.

It's just that, as it relates to my sleep apnea, the way forward is not quite so clear; it will take some work on my part. It will take some work to figure out what the next best step might be as I move from more to less conservative on the spectrum of sleep apnea treatment. I think I already know the answer here (palatal expansion to improve nasal breathing - which is shit). The next question is how the fuck do I get the 30k that I'll need for the treatment lol. But one step at a time.

In retrospect, I think it's pretty clear how I had become sort of complacent and had just been existing for the past couple years because I didn't want to have to experience the pain that comes with trying to figure all this out. I have no doubt that pmo played a big role in that complacency, and now that it's no longer there I have nothing holding me back from trying to figure this shit out.

 

[Androg]

Have you tried mouth tape for the apnea?

 

[lukeman3000]

Have you tried mouth tape for the apnea?

Yeah man I’ve tried taping my mouth. The idea here is that it forces you to breathe through your nose, but this doesn’t necessarily prevent airway collapse from happening if you have sleep apnea. If this was the case, medical professionals would just prescribe tape instead of CPAP/BiPAP and other conservative measures, let alone surgical intervention to help increase the size of the airway and also the tautness thereof. In fact, none of the doctors I’ve worked with have even mentioned it as being something worth trying (though I have tried regardless). Conservative treatment of obstructive sleep apnea really starts with CPAP and perhaps mandibular advancement devices that hold the lower jaw forward while sleeping in order to prevent the tongue from falling back and blocking the airway (which isn’t the only way that airway collapse can occur, it’s just one example).

Suffice it to say that I’ve tried different conservative measures like CPAP/BiPAP, positional therapy (sleeping on my side), even treating my allergies in order to decrease swelling of the turbinates and improve nasal airflow (Flonase does seem to have a pretty big impact on my sleep quality, actually, and I’m also in the process of getting allergy shots). CPAP/BiPAP is worth revisiting and I haven’t yet wanted to try a mandibular advancement device because it’s expensive to get one made and can potentially fuck up your TMJ in the long term. That’s why I’m looking at palatal expansion next because I know that my nasal breathing is garbage and this procedure is relatively low on the invasiveness scale (as compared to something like double jaw surgery (MMA) where both the upper and lower jaws are separated, moved forward, slightly rotated, and reattached in order to open the airway and keep it more taut and less prone to collapse.

I think what I need to do is start working on figuring out how to make palatal expansion viable (from a financial standpoint) and also consider revisiting CPAP/BiPAP in the meantime and giving it more of a chance. The surgeon I want to work with charges ~30K and it’s required up front; it’s definitely a big pill to swallow because I don’t have that laying around lol. However, it’s possible that I might be able to get insurance to pay for it though this would likely require a lot of work and be a protracted process. I have a lot of reading and educating myself to do.

 

[Androg]

So sorry to hear what you're dealing with.

 

[Brutus]

And then I read this comment from you (Brutus) and you make me second guess myself once again lol. I feel like I'm slowly losing my mind lol; I just want to figure out why the fuck I feel like shit after I sleep and have no energy. That's literally all I want from life right now. And you actually think that porn could be responsible for this? I mean, I probably starting viewing sometime in my teens and maybe I watched it quite a bit when I was younger, but there would be times when I didn't watch at all (when I was in a relationship) so it was very on and off over the years, and most recently I had relegated it to only 1-3x/week on the weekends and for a short period of time at that. So I didn't really see my usage habits as out of control or problematic, and I wasn't viewing content that was making me feel guilt or shame or anything like that. Pretty vanilla shit.

PMO has definitely had an effective on my energy levels and has caused me to feel fatigue. Reading your most recent comment, it sounds as though your struggling to get quality sleep, caused by your sleep apnea. PMO likely has an effect on your sleep but might not be the only cause of your fatigue. I hope my comment didn't seem as though abstinence would be a panacea for your sleep problems. If it did I apologize. Obviously there are many factors you're dealing with and your sleep condition is more serious than I was thinking at first. It's still good that you're cutting PMO out of your life. If it makes a big difference in your sleep struggles, that's great! If not, it gives you some clarity on how to move forward, likely that surgery you talked about.

 

[lukeman3000]

So sorry to hear what you're dealing with.

It is rather unfortunate lol, and I don’t like feeling like shit all the time, but it’s the hand I’ve been dealt and it’s mine to deal with. We all have our own struggles.

That said, I assume you would agree that continuing to abstain from porn, if not PMO entirely, can only be a good thing since I feel that it compels me to focus on these other areas of my life that need attention (like my sleep apnea). And who knows, if by some chance PMO is more responsible for my symptoms than my sleep apnea is, it’s possible I might need more time away from it to find out.

 

[lukeman3000]

PMO has definitely had an effective on my energy levels and has caused me to feel fatigue. Reading your most recent comment, it sounds as though you’re struggling to get quality sleep, caused by your sleep apnea. PMO likely has an effect on your sleep but might not be the only cause of your fatigue. I hope my comment didn't seem as though abstinence would be a panacea for your sleep problems. If it did I apologize. Obviously there are many factors you're dealing with and your sleep condition is more serious than I was thinking at first. It's still good that you're cutting PMO out of your life. If it makes a big difference in your sleep struggles, that's great! If not, it gives you some clarity on how to move forward, likely that surgery you talked about.

You’re good man. I appreciate the levelheaded responses that I’ve got in this thread here.

At the end of the day it doesn’t matter whether or not porn is directly causing my fatigue or greatly contributing to it. It’s something that I’m better off without, regardless. I know that, at the very least, it changed the way I viewed other women (in a negative sense) and made me less prone to want to socialize and meet people. And even worse is that it may have helped me become complacent with my sleep apnea.

 

[Androg]

I have seen men report that they sleep more soundly after eliminating porn (once they're through withdrawal), so we will cross our fingers for you and hope you see a radical improvement.

 

[lukeman3000]

I have seen men report that they sleep more soundly after eliminating porn (once they're through withdrawal), so we will cross our fingers for you and hope you see a radical improvement.

I’m not holding my breath especially given that I know I have sleep apnea, but I’ll take anything I can get. I think that I need to continue to be a person who doesn’t view porn just in case it really has drastically affected me.

But, how can porn withdrawal last so damn long? Isn’t withdrawal from most substances over within 1-2 months? How can guys still be going through porn withdrawal 6-12 months later?

 

[Simon2]

For me, I feel withdrawal as long as I mull over in my brain how porn is available right now, what it would be like to look at it, what I would look at etc. Because then my brain gets triggered and I feel the symptoms throughout my body and mind. If I can turn off those thoughts, pretend that porn just doesn't exist - isn't an option - then I symptoms go away. I felt like that even 10 months into recovery. When I finally caved in - sadly.

 

[arcana]

Postabstinent syndrome after giving up 10 years of alcohol consumption lasts at least a year, so why should porn be less?
It depends on what period of dependence you have. My addiction period was 10 years and after 3 years of abstinence, I still sometimes feel some mild withdrawal.

 

[Androg]

I’m not holding my breath especially given that I know I have sleep apnea, but I’ll take anything I can get. I think that I need to continue to be a person who doesn’t view porn just in case it really has drastically affected me.

But, how can porn withdrawal last so damn long? Isn’t withdrawal from most substances over within 1-2 months? How can guys still be going through porn withdrawal 6-12 months later?

In some people withdrawal goes on for a very long time. Go to.YBOP and look up “PAWS.”

 

[lukeman3000]

Well, fuck. Now I can’t rationalize using porn in good conscience even though I have obstructive sleep apnea lol.

If there is actually a link between porn and obstructive sleep apnea, that’s fucking insane. If viewing porn can make your airway less compliant and thus more susceptible to collapse during sleep, that is absolutely crazy. Yet that seems to be what might be suggested at least indirectly by the referenced study in that link.

So you’re telling me that viewing porn can essentially cause or exacerbate obstructive sleep apnea? That’s almost beyond my ability or desire to even accept as potentially being true. I need to read the original study for more details but the link is dead. If anyone has a link to it, or any other thoughts on this, please share!

Perhaps this is why some guys report sleeping and feeling so much better when they quit porn? I also hear guys talk about how they had “dead eyes” while using porn - maybe this is because they’re chronically sleep deprived to a certain degree before they quit and quitting allows their sleep to improve and thus their appearance is also improved?

 

[lukeman3000]

So I passed day 90 recently of no PMO. The next day I decided to masturbate (without porn or porn fantasy) and found that it really did almost nothing for me whatsoever. I didn’t find it all that pleasurable or interesting, even being without it for 90 days.

And the past month or so has been rather hellish for me. I feel like I’ve been in this deep fucking hole, even dealing with some suicidal thoughts. Questioning if porn has anything to do with these symptoms, especially given how bad I feel after 90 days of no PMO. I still haven’t gone back to porn but I find myself highly skeptical that it could be responsible for the way I feel.

But I guess who knows right? It could be such that my sleep apnea is completely coincidental (or even potentially caused by addiction-related brain changes) and what I’m really suffering from is major depression potentially caused by using porn over so many years (or perhaps some genetic defect or something). Major depression certainly would explain the overwhelming daily fatigue, lack of energy, lack of interest in most activities, lack of interest in dating, etc. Ever since I found out I had sleep apnea two years ago I had kind of been pinning all my symptoms on that. If I felt bad then I’d just assume I must’ve sleep poorly the night before or something like that.

But maybe the truth is a bit more complex than that, or completely different altogether. I’m actually going to likely start an SNRI soon; I’ve talked to both my doctor and therapist about this and they both think it’s a good idea. Especially my therapist. He thinks that there’s merit to treating the depression-like symptoms even if they’re only secondary to something like my sleep apnea.

What I’m wondering though this this - Is it a bad idea to treat these depression-like symptoms if they’re actually caused by my porn use and I’m trying to reboot? I hope not. Because I feel like I need some fucking help here lol.

 

[Androg]

Did you say you engage in daily exercise? Even walking out of doors? Exercise is a powerful antidepressant...whatever the cause.

 

[lukeman3000]

Did you say you engage in daily exercise? Even walking out of doors? Exercise is a powerful antidepressant...whatever the cause.

Man, up until a month ago I was exercising basically daily and enjoying it for the most part. But it’s like I suddenly hit some fucking wall and just lost the drive and the energy to feel like I could output at that level, and I just stopped.

 

[Androg]

Man, up until a month ago I was exercising basically daily and enjoying it for the most part. But it’s like I suddenly hit some fucking wall and just lost the drive and the energy to feel like I could output at that level, and I just stopped.

Start small, but start again

 

[lukeman3000]

Start small, but start again

I will try. I also started on Venlafaxine today (Effexor) so perhaps this will help with my symptoms in addition to everything else I’m doing. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter whether my symptoms are due to porn, or sleep apnea, or some other unknown cause. I have to treat my symptoms because of their severity. If I’m still going through withdrawal maybe I just need a little help to get through it.

I would like to think that surely I’m not experiencing the effects of addiction-related brain changes (withdrawal) 90+ days after quitting, especially given the severity of these symptoms; just just seems kind of crazy to me. But I guess it’s possible? I mean I’ll never know for sure one way or the other

 

[Androg]