YBOP- Where does it stand? Why is there the arguement?

[Madaemosewa]

What I also fail to understand is why there is such an enormous argument about ''Porn addiction'', with some people saying YBOP is ''pseudo-science''. I have also seen many articles on YBOP dedicated to the argument and correcting myths. However this does not make sense- whether one is an addict or not, merely using it, as is stated in YBOP; enough brain changes may have occurred to severely affect someone's life. So, what's the point of the argument for porn addiction if one needn't be an addict to be adversely affected whatsoever?
I think that the science is only useful as motivation to succeed in abstinence. Whether porn addiction is real or not, doesn't matter... In my opinion YBOP should take the stance that all activities related to a build up of ?FosB (PMO) and any of the individual components which lead to brain alterations and thus the psychological effects (Anxiety, depression, lack motivation, lack concentration, less working memory) which adversely affect people are bad and should be avoided. But instead, YBOP dedicates lots of it's articles to the argument that porn addiction exists and some articles even have the attitude that MO is good! Which seems to be contradictory if you hold  the belief that YBOP disagrees with PMO. Frankly, the creator/s frankly don't care. With this bold contradiction to what the YBOP, reddit, Nofap and Reboot nation hold to be true from their experience and what they infer from the  information on YBOP which they can relate to their own lives, we can assume that the purpose of the site is not to persuade lots of people, but just state the facts. Which is really weird since YBOP allows a community of people to overcome PMO who all hold the same view (PMO=BAD)  with thanks to Reboot Nation and the accounts. YBOP's stance is exemplified where YBOP states ''YBOP is NOT an anti-masturbation website.'' This is obviously wrong to convey. In my opinion, if YBOP changed the view it conveyed and tried to catch a more of the affected public more people would be better off- Wouldn't YBOP aswell? YBOP would get more viewers, as everybody goes on it for help. Also we'd all be better if there were less misinformation on the internet claiming PMO was good for your health and if YBOP/Nofap/ Reboot nation were easier to find. We'd of all gotten over our issue earlier, especially if the dangers of porn were taught in schools. Thank you.

 

[Canuck99]

It is psychological.  The more people do something (in public or secret) the more it is accepted.  Consider it group think or whatever. 

Porn is fairly accepted these days by society, secretly or not.  Thus trying to convince people it can be a "real danger" or even an addiction, is going to be really, really tough, ESPECIALLY since there is NO "BAD" things that come out of it in "real" quantifiable terms (cancer, killing your brain, over dose, etc).  Depression/Anxiety are thinks that are just now starting to be accepted by society as problems, and PIED is the diesase most people probably get, but few want to admit, especially with the advent of Cialis, Viagra, Levitra and "natural" versions such as VigrX. 

You are essentially working against 30 years of preconceived notions and opinions, as pre-1980, porn was considered very "dirty". 

The same thing was true in the 70's and 80's with smoking.  In fact, go back far enough, and they were saying that Smoking was "good for you". 



In 10 years from now, it will be accepted for what it is.  What we really need is for Schools to teach young men about the dangers they can cause, but that will come with time. 


Everything takes time. 

 

[fugu]

First, let me say that I think porn addiction is very real and it's effects are more widespread then we think. I think detractors arguments are weak.

Mainly, I think the opposition fundamentally believes behaviors can not be addictive. Most of these people aren't just harping that porn addiction is a fable, but also sex addiction and food addiction. I think the reason porn addiction is generating a lot of heated debate is the emergence of online communities, like ours.

 

[Madaemosewa]

In response to CrazyGopher, it is thought that a substantial amount of the symptoms and problems faced shared by many people on these sites with the same issue are due to ?FosB, which  builds up due to PMO. It is thought that the 6-8 week decline in ?FosB is responsible for many of the symptoms disparaging in the ''Reboot''. Therefore if (Paraphrasing from YBOP) ''the subjective arousal while watching porn is the main predictor of degree of problems from Internet sex (as opposed to time spent watching and various other factors). '' I suppose that MO is not as bad as porn, but still awful. This seems probable because porn seems to make people aroused and hooked on the screen of your device for long periods of time, probably whilst fapping; bathing your brain, obliviously, in a sea of neurochemicals. Likely, the sufferer is watching with multiple tabs open, searching for the perfect girl, and building themselves a harem of unrealistically beautiful actors whilst not closing them until they've finished PMO. I suppose porn can only be considered worse as it means your bathing you brain in neurochemicals for hours on end whereas MO without porn is only short. So porn, a long time highly aroused versus fapping, a usually short time if without porn. So yes, porn is worse unless you watch it without arousal in which it's still worse however, still not danger-less. (Proof) ''Results showed that working memory was worst during the porn viewing and that greater arousal augmented the drop.''-YBOP.

 

[Twostroke]

I personally think that any activity that causes a buzz and dopamine release in the brain can be potentially addictive. From reading quite widely on the subject it seems that there has not been enough research to conclusively say that behavioural addictions exist, but there seems to be a growing acceptance that compulsive behaviours whether it be shopping, food,exercise, sex, viewing porn or gambling for some people can be genuine addictions.
There is no doubt that PMO is very pleasurable and causes a significant dopamine buzz, therefore it seems logical that repetition of this would train the brain to want more of this pleasurable feeling and therefore start craving the activity that produces the pleasure ie PMO. Just as an addicted gambler craves the buzz he/she gets from a win and therefore keeps repeating the activity (placing bets) in order to try to get that buzz again.

 

[dwenjang1218]

My interpretation is that MO is not bad in itself.
However, since we have trained our brains to MO while watching porn for so many years,
the two activities get "wired together" and become inseparable.
Thus when we MO, we automatically think about porn, even if we're not watching it.

 

[Gary Wilson]

YBOP is a clearing house for information about rebooting. The term rebooting was coined maybe 6 years ago on reuniting.info. Various versions of rebooting, such as nofap, predate reuniting.

The only rule YBOP puts forth (first paragraph on rebooting page) is the one rule all the guys adhered to - no artificial sexual stimuli. I envision each person as capable of picking and choosing what woks for them, and this is usually accomplished by reading rebooting accounts that align with their goals and situation.

I know the lack of definitive do's and don't's frustrate some YBOP visitors. If there's not a clear answer to a question.....it's not because we haven't been asked.

A few comments on science

In response to CrazyGopher, it is thought that a substantial amount of the symptoms and problems faced shared by many people on these sites with the same issue are due to ?FosB, which builds up due to PMO.

I would say that ?FosB builds up in response to chronic over-stimulation. PMO doesn't necessarily cause the accumulation of deltafosb. Nor does masturbation or sex, for that matter. The main reason for YBOP mentioning ?FosB is to show that all addictions are initiated by the same molecular events, and thus share certain brain changes. 

It is thought that the 6-8 week decline in ?FosB is responsible for many of the symptoms disparaging in the ''Reboot''.

I'm not sure what you mean by disparaging. It's important to realize that deltafosb's job is to activate certain genes which cause sensitization and maybe desensitization. Those brain changes may persist after ?FosB has returned to normal levels.

I suppose that MO is not as bad as porn, but still awful. This seems probable because porn seems to make people aroused and hooked on the screen of your device for long periods of time, probably whilst fapping; bathing your brain, obliviously, in a sea of neurochemicals. Likely, the sufferer is watching with multiple tabs open, searching for the perfect girl, and building themselves a harem of unrealistically beautiful actors whilst not closing them until they've finished PMO.

Being hooked on a particular stimulus is the problem behind porn addiction, porn induced sexual issues, porn-induced fetishes. ?FosB plays a role in all of these - through sensitization. The result is a bigger buzz for your addiction or fetish. 

This is the point where confusion occurs, in many of the posts I see, and even with porn recovery programs (Candeo, etc.), and with sex addiction therapists. The focus now becomes what neurochemicals are released during orgasm, or high dopamine, etc.

As far is known, sex and masturbation release the same concoction of neurochemicals. Both involve high dopamine. The key point - as you described - is that one is wiring one's sexual response to internet porn. To a screen. And over time, with porn, will you continue to wire in associations such as the need for novelty, certain fetishes, needing to be a voyeur, needing to continuously click. Basically -  needing to control your arousal/dopamine with a mouse. ?FosB is a major player in this wiring, or sexual conditioning.

So when guys on nofap start citing YBOP, and saying that masturbation down regulates D2 receptors, or increases ?FosB they have completely missed the mark. YBOP is describing addiction related brain changes and sexual conditioning via porn use, and is not describing masturbation or orgasm.

 

[Twostroke]

I've been 11 days PMO/MO free and was wondering whether prople think it would be acceptable to MO while thinking about past real sexual encounters? Or do you think your brain will automatically start remembering porn scenes/ fantasies when you start masturbating?

 

[Madaemosewa]

I don't think that's a good idea. In my opinion it is resetting. There are many reasons for this. Just remember, don't go on porn, don't do yourself. How hard is that?

 

[Twostroke]

well, i'm finding the not looking at porn bearable, but i really feel horny and having lots of sexy thoughts and would love a wank! I feel it would relieve my horniness and allow me to resist the porn more easily...or am i just tricking myself?
I read some advice on a psychology site about porn addiction and one tip was to 'create your own porn' ie use your own fantasies in your head to masturbate to so that you didn't need to go online and use visual stimuli. This appears to contradict all the advice i've seen on this site, so i'm a bit confused.
I understand the concept that years of PMO may mean that during MO you may automatically think about porn, but if you don't actually look at porn and continue to abstain, then with time you'll become conditioned to MO to your own imagination without the need for visual stimuli, which sounds much healthier than using porn to me, especially if your using mental images of real experiences.
I'd appreciate people's thoughts on this.

 

[Madaemosewa]

In response to your post, because it seems as if you need help, there is a famous quote from one fellow fapstronauts father who taught him along the lines of ''the more you feed it, the more it wants'', which is certainly true, you shouldn't touch your Johnson. This man was obviously very wise. It's not too much about conditioning but rather how aroused you are, which causes the majority of symptoms of sufferers. Porn, means you are probably going to be  hooked on the screen trying to find the perfect porn vid (Coolidge effect) which means that you are bathing yourself in neurochemicals and increasing your DeltaFosB, which the decline of by the 6-8 week stage may explain the disappearance of many fem/fapstronauts symptoms. Porn imagery which is bad for various reasons (trigger, arousal and each time you avoid you become better at avoiding so you shouldn't watch it. Well, it's up to you to decide whether to MO, I don't recommend it as in one study the subjective arousal whilst watching porn/ fapping was reason for the majority of symptoms rather than time watching it. It's also means that you've actually reset, as your DeltaFosB increases and takes an age to come down, so it's not just artificial stimulation- if you fap, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO COMPLETELY RECOVER. If you have symptoms. It's also easier to say you've abstained if you've done nothing penis related whatsoever whether it be fap one or watch one. I will try to make a better explanation.

 

[Twostroke]

Maybe i should have said that i don't have any ED symptoms, i just didn't like how my porn use was escalating and becoming more extreme, and how it was changing my view of women and sex. I didn't like the way my thoughts were going and becoming unhealthy, and i didn't like myself for having these thoughts.
Since stopping porn, i can already see that these thoughts are reducing, and that the reason i was having them was because i was chasing harder porn to get the same buzz (i'm glad to say i never got into anything too extreme). So i seem to have caught things before they went too far, both in terms of escalation and also in terms of having no major sexual dysfunction, no problem getting erections just maybe some mild delayed ejaculation.
So i want to give up porn, but not masturbation so i want to recondition my brain to healthy occasional MO using my own imagination without the unhealthy influence of P.

 

[JANK]

....So i want to give up porn, but not masturbation so i want to recondition my brain to healthy occasional MO using my own imagination without the unhealthy influence of P.

WTF. Occasional MO? No way man. Don't you know how MO dilutes you? NOFAP!

 

[Mart71]

....So i want to give up porn, but not masturbation so i want to recondition my brain to healthy occasional MO using my own imagination without the unhealthy influence of P.

WTF. Occasional MO? No way man. Don't you know how MO dilutes you? NOFAP!

He doesn't have ED problems, so imo MO is fine, as long as it's without porn.

 

[Bibbity]

....So i want to give up porn, but not masturbation so i want to recondition my brain to healthy occasional MO using my own imagination without the unhealthy influence of P.

WTF. Occasional MO? No way man. Don't you know how MO dilutes you? NOFAP!

He doesn't have ED problems, so imo MO is fine, as long as it's without porn.

I agree.  For someone without a partner I think MO is an option for sexual release especially if you do not have PIED.  I think some people MO ONLY when they feel a major NEED to do it, so say once every 2-3 weeks type of thing. This way you are not depleting your sexual energy and motivation for real sex.  Some men find the act of orgasming with or without a partner to be draining if they do it too much.