Pardon me, are we creating a new behavioral disorder, here?

[pjerry]

What kind of addiction is sex addiction? Is it like heroine? Is it like nicotine? My answer is: Not exactly. Yes, it shares certain features with behaviors that are classified as addictions. However, the American Psychological Association has not even accepted the term "sex addiction" yet. And here we are talking about how we are addicted to porn. Rightly so, you might say. Careful, I reply. There is another group of behavioral disorders that I believe is much more like what we're experiencing here. I'm talking about eating disorders.

Think about it: Eating is one of the most central human urges. Like sex, eating is influenced heavily by the reward structures in our brain (ring-ring! Dopamine). Modern junk food is so calory rich, it causes a massive dopamine response in the brain (ring-ring! Internet porn). So, there are a lot of people who "unlearn" to eat healthy food and get pathologically obese by just eating junk food. Also, for them the sensation of hunger is often not present any more because they are eating excessively. Another similarity: They get cravings for junk food if they try to start eating healthy. Interesting, isn't it?

So, what am I worried about? We're already addressing the issue, right? Well, with eating disorders the pendulum swings both ways. You get pathological eaters and you get people who are so restrictive with their eating habits that they starve themselves to death. So, are we really addressing the issue? In my opinion, a lot of fapstronauts are shifting from a compulsive eating behavior to compulsive dieting.

Am I saying we shouldn't abstain from sex or orgasms to reboot and rewire? There's a difference between that and compulsive abstinence. What I am saying is, I believe it is a good idea to strive for a healthy sexuality. Healthy in this context means "not compulsive and damaging to your life". Are you pestered by your guilty conscience after relapsing? Are you getting depressed because of it? Do you hate yourself for it? Do you think you're less of a human being than others because you relapsed? If so, you might go and make a pro and con list to decide if you should get help.

Why? You're human! If you relapse, you've given into a feeling that everyone before you has given in to. In fact, in order for you to be in this world, people had to be horny and crave sex! This mechanism is so deeply ingrained in our brains because we need it for the survival of our species. If sex wasn't rewarding, there probably wouldn't be any human beings!

Sure, if you don't eat, you die. I know, it's not the same. I'm just questioning motives, here. Sure, if you've tried everything else, your ED isn't going away and you still excessively masturbate and you've tried and tried and tried: go ascetic. Many people however, seem to join this movement and immediately take the hardest road possible just to go on a constant cycle of relapsing without realizing why. I've been off porn for a little more than a week and it's been hard already. I was able to fap every now and then to get the pressure off. Maybe it won't work right away. But chances are, it will. And if it doesn't? Well, then I can still go hard mode. What's important is that I have made a conscious decision to get back my healthy sexuality and that is all I need. I will take the right steps if the time has come.

Please read my disclaimer below. Thanks for reading.

Cheers

pJerry

 

[Vincent]

Hi Jerry,

thanks for stating this. Yes, you might say that it is more of a behavioural disorder than a classic drug addiction.

Some describe it as a compulsive disorder - if the watching of alluring materials triggers a compulsion, like masturbation in sense of a trigger-response system. eg: http://blogs.psychcentral.com/sex/2012/05/compulsive-masturbation-the-secret-sexual-disorder/

In other Sources it is more focused on as behavioural addiction subject to dopamine release:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3164585/

Mainly this is subject to the human attraction to novelty and the therewith triggered dopanie release (also endorphines in some cases)....
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-athletes-way/201311/the-perils-novelty-seeking

All in all you might say that to completely stop doing something because of an overuse is a first step to get it back to normal. And while it might work for some to stay completely free of masturbation, it is porn most of us want to abstain from. The masturbation itself is, if not triggered by porn, something that can be controlled - except it is a compulsion or valve for stress or a sexual missinterpretation (fetish).

It on the other hand might as well be a very normal thing, psychologically, to fullstop something.

I think you have some very interesting thoughts there. Thanks for sharing

 

[challenged]

I like to see Gabe or one of the other experts comment on this.  From what I have read (and from anecdotal evidence also), it seems pretty clear that porn addiction and sex addiction are not the same.  One could be addicted to porn and sex, of course, but I submit that there are millions of people out there who are addicted to porn or are habitual users of porn that are NOT "sex addicts" in the classical meaning of the term.  So to some extent, the fact that "sex addiction" is not universally recognized would seem to be somewhat unimportant to the issue at hand.  It is pretty clear that addiction to porn is a real thing.

Now in dealing with porn addiction, in my understanding it is useful for some to abstain from M and in some cases sex for a period of time while attempting to overcome a porn addiction.  This seems to help some, although others seem to be able to reboot even while occasionally engaging in M, and many find sex with a real person to be helpful during the reboot.

Anyway, I don't see a lot of people abstaining from sex for lengthy periods of time beyond the rebooting stage to the extent that it would be characterized as "unhealthy."  Is this really happening out there?  Are there previous porn addicts who are "compulsively" avoiding sex when they should not be (the obvious case would be where they are married)?  I haven't heard anything about that, and my gut instinct is that it is unlikely to happen. Or is the issue just M?  If so, can we really say that someone who has decided that don't want to M anymore, and they just want to limit their sexual activity to sex with a real person, is engaged in unhealthy or "compulsive" behavior?

I think there is a pretty big difference between food and sex, in terms of the danger of abstinence.  Yes, they both can result in a release of dopamine, but food is essential for survival.  Sex is not.  You can't eat food only once a month and expect to  live for very long, but lots of people have sex only once a month or have no sex at all for long periods of time, and their survival is in no way threatened.

But maybe I'm not understanding the issue.  And this is just my $.02. 

 

[NfN]

Very interesting thoughts pjerry. I was going to make a comment, but challenged explained it better than I would have:

Anyway, I don't see a lot of people abstaining from sex for lengthy periods of time beyond the rebooting stage to the extent that it would be characterized as "unhealthy."  Is this really happening out there?  Are there previous porn addicts who are "compulsively" avoiding sex when they should not be (the obvious case would be where they are married)?  I haven't heard anything about that, and my gut instinct is that it is unlikely to happen. Or is the issue just M?  If so, can we really say that someone who has decided that don't want to M anymore, and they just want to limit their sexual activity to sex with a real person, is engaged in unhealthy or "compulsive" behavior?

 

[ready2go]

Interesting conversation and great points brought up. 
For myself, and only myself, my understanding is that on this forum we are seeking to avoid PMO.  The P is key here for me.  If I should happen to jerk off, so be it, I don't feel like I'm losing any ground.  If I orgasm, fine, it will happen.  If I P, then I need to start over and I've broken my agreement with myself not to.  That said, for the moment I'm sticking with harder reboot and not doing anything, and just waiting it out.  Teeth gritted, and alternative plans, with the support of the awesome dudes here on this forum, helping me through it. 

 

[pjerry]

Wow, I'm really glad about the response. I actually expected a little bit of a shitstorm but maybe I'm actually mistaken about the way I see this whole issue. I have to admit that I came to this forum because my impression was that less people here are super focused on not having an orgasm.

Anyway, I don't see a lot of people abstaining from sex for lengthy periods of time beyond the rebooting stage to the extent that it would be characterized as "unhealthy."  Is this really happening out there?  Are there previous porn addicts who are "compulsively" avoiding sex when they should not be (the obvious case would be where they are married)?  I haven't heard anything about that, and my gut instinct is that it is unlikely to happen. Or is the issue just M?  If so, can we really say that someone who has decided that don't want to M anymore, and they just want to limit their sexual activity to sex with a real person, is engaged in unhealthy or "compulsive" behavior?

Honestly? I have nothing beyond anecdotal evidence that this really is an issue. It's also just a gut feeling born out of the first impressions I got after joining this and another forum. I've seen posts from people who gave themselves a hard time for "inviting desire into [their] minds" or people who believed that they shouldn't even look at women even after reboot. Maybe these were just single cases. However, this is also paired with the impression that a large number of newbies simply goes into complete abstinence without even trying to just stay away from porn as a first step. Again, those were some of my first impressions after joining this movement.

Challenged, thanks for your questions. They really changed my perspective on the issue. I especially agree that it is unlikely that someone might compulsively avoid sex. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if there were cases like that out there. People develop weird behaviors to get what they need. Anyway, thanks for the input.

I'm also really glad about these reasonable replies. Seems like I chose the right forum 

 

[challenged]

I've seen posts from people who gave themselves a hard time for "inviting desire into [their] minds" or people who believed that they shouldn't even look at women even after reboot.

I think you raise a valid point here.  I agree that there is a tendency sometimes to overstate the need to avoid certain thoughts, or comments from certain quarters that tend to deny (or fail to understand)  our human nature.  We don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.  For example, there is nothing wrong with a man seeing a beautiful woman and thinking that she is beautiful (and nothing wrong with a woman seeing a good looking man and thinking he is handsome).  It is when the thoughts go beyond the recognition of beauty or attractiveness -- for example, into the realm of fantasizing sexually and/or seeing people only as sexual toys --  that we potentially get into trouble.

But sexual desire is a natural, God-given desire.  It seems to me that what we are trying to do is orient it in the right direction (i.e., to real people and not to pixels). and to not abuse our desires (e.g., looking at women or men as "playthings" to satisfy our desires), which I think is both a characteristic of habitual porn use and a symptom of it.

I'm glad you started this thread.  There are some interesting issues.

 

[B_Rosky]

It sounds like what you may be describing is "sexual anorexia" which is covered in many of Dr. Patrick Carnes' books. It's basically a compulsive abstinence from sex in order to control the pain that was once caused by compulsive sexual acting out.

-B

 

[Attos]

First, sex addiction isn't the topic of this forum.

Eating is a need, porn isn't. Actually neither is sex, if you brought it up.

Abstaining is only compulsive if that's an "active" behavior.

If you simply don't do it, it's just like the other infinite number of things you don't do.

For any sort of illness, there is a chance of developing a secondary disorder, for example if you worry or obsess too much about your health issue.

 

[Chaos Mind]

Pjerry,

I like your post a lot. No matter if we share your opinion or not, you've brought up some good ideas on the topic. And I personally share most of them.

There is an evident connection between eating and sexuality. There is a German saying which basically means "Love runs through the stomach". Or for native Speakers: The way to a man's heart is through his stomach. When we suffer from lovesickness, we deny food. A great meal can turn into a sensual foreplay. Commercials for kitchen accessories or expensive food are often embedded in an erotic context. And can you honestly say you have never eaten something that felt so good you'd look for words like "orgasmic" to describe the sensation (I will pity you if you haven't)? Eating in our society is way more than mere food intake. Just like an orgasm is more than just a means of procreation.

I also share your thoughts on the chemical context: the dopamine kick that rewards us for energy-rich food (fat and/or carbs). It requires a process of active learning and interfering to sustain from unhealthy food. Those who claim they only like salad and vegetables and are literally disgusted with junk food have learned to overcome their inbred pursuit for energy-rich food. Same for porn use: I think it's quite natural to commit to the temptation. Even worse: from childhood on we are told to eat healthily, but we are rarely told to stay away from porn.

Also I have found myself craving for food whenever I resist watching porn. It's hard to distract my mind, once it shapes the idea of visiting an X-rated site - dopamine is demanded and my mind hates to be let down. I gained a little weight since I started my reboot, because I often filled the gap with some chocolate, an extra sandwich or whatever it is I find in the kitchen. So, yeah, I cannot possibly deny the connection.

Now for your worries about addressing the issue in a wrong kind of way: as stated by other members here in this forum, the clear difference is the result when giving up the source of problem completely. No fap vs. no eat. Guess which one would finally kill you . But I don't think that's a reason to abandon your theory. Rather we'd have to distinguish between eating and devouring. Maybe sustaining from all food for 90 days would indeed solve the problem of obesity and recover a mind that has been programmed on junk food - if only we didn't starve in the meantime. So the solution could only be: eat healthy. Even if that slows down the process. Show a disturbed mind how it appreciates good and healthy food again ("re-wire to salad"), no McDonald's binge etc. And on a hard reset: not even a cup of ice cream in the first 30 or 90 days. Now if the pendulum swings to the other direction and we get a proper eating disorder, it's most likely due to the overwhelming success of the diet. Those people tend to regard food as their new enemy whereas in fact it had been the eating binges.

Consequently, for a healthy recovery from porn abuse and according to pjerry's theory, we should indeed re-consider our attititude towards masturbation and orgasm. Porn is the enemy - not the orgasm. I share pjerry's worry that people could tend to continue their recovery until they simply cannot enjoy anything sexual anymore. It is less likely than with food, since the effect is less evident (slim body, compliments from the other gender, raised athleticism...) and the urge to keep continuing forever would rather stop for a porn addict once his actual crave has vanished. But the risk cannot be denied: some people think masturbation is evil and orgasm the spawn of hell. They need to think that in order to stay away from it for the duration of their hard reset. But we all need to get back to these things, once we are ready. We need to enjoy a piece of chocolate without devouring the whole bar in a second and relapse. At least that's MY goal.

The bottom line of my post: stop what you must stop. But don't make M and O become your worst enemy. They are simply gates to a world you decided to leave behind for good. Once the gate leads into a different, more positive world, you should be eager to walk through it. Just like how a former junk food addict needs to appreciate other things than salad and water once he reaches a healthy shape.

 

[Vincent]

Now for your worries about addressing the issue in a wrong kind of way: as stated by other members here in this forum, the clear difference is the result when giving up the source of problem completely. No fap vs. no eat. Guess which one would finally kill you . But I don't think that's a reason to abandon your theory. Rather we'd have to distinguish between eating and devouring. Maybe sustaining from all food for 90 days would indeed solve the problem of obesity and recover a mind that has been programmed on junk food - if only we didn't starve in the meantime. So the solution could only be: eat healthy. Even if that slows down the process. Show a disturbed mind how it appreciates good and healthy food again ("re-wire to salad"), no McDonald's binge etc. And on a hard reset: not even a cup of ice cream in the first 30 or 90 days. Now if the pendulum swings to the other direction and we get a proper eating disorder, it's most likely due to the overwhelming success of the diet. Those people tend to regard food as their new enemy whereas in fact it had been the eating binges.

I think Chaos Mind exactly hit the point here.
A disorder generally can only derivate from a habit. A habit forms from something repeated often, because it is custom or necessary (eating, washing hands etc.). Everything done more than necessary - an excess - can be harmful at a certain degree, either physically or psychologically. Therefore I understand, what you want to say, PJerry.

If we are PMO bingers and try to counter it with the opposite, anti PMO binging or better total abstinence, we migth only substitute one habitual disorder with another. The main problem with the eating allegory is, that the opposite of eating is not feasible. Therefore the conclusion is -> less eating. The eventual aimed at result is however the same, psychologically. An "normal" understanding and acting towards the habit itself, ie. eating normally and having a normal relation to sexuality.

This however is subject to the fact, that the disorder is simply to "vanish". A healthy understanding of eating which, as Chaos Mind perfectly stated, is more than just stuffing food into us, is difficult to build up again after having a disorder. therefore we automatically establish counter measures. If I am too fat I instantly think that not eating at all would bring me the fastest results then relises that results dont come and binge eats out of frustration; a person with anorexia binge eats when feeling bad for the skinny figure (or conscience) and feels bad about that again and things proceed -> cycle!

With PMO however, the absolute opposite is feasible and therefore one can try it. I think this is the main motivation of many - faster results. After some time without hypersexual stimuli and overuse of masturbation out of a mood, that is plainly responding to a habit (I also eat when I have an appetite not only when I am hungry and have to control that if I don't want to gain too much weight), The brain and body will regulate itself again and a normal, basically the "preinstalled" system will be activated again.

We however can never exclude the possibility that the damage done by overuse of stimulating material is permanent, at least to societal factors. SMS changed the way we communicate, porn may also have changed the way we have sex. But this is an entirely different matter.

 

[Madaemosewa]

ans: yes

 

[Mbg]

In my own experience with this forum and Sex Addicts Anonymous, it seems quite obvious that the goal is healthy sexuality and not compulsive abstinence.  Despite sexual addiction not being recognized as an actual addiction, there are millions of people who use sex compulsively to medicate or for various other reasons, usually harmful.  Even in SAA, the goal is not compulsive avoidance of sex.  Each person establishes their own personal sobriety.  For some, masturbation may not be a compulsive and damaging behavior, for others it may be.  In the end, each persons recovery is their own and whatever works for them. 

 

[Mbg]

I've seen posts from people who gave themselves a hard time for "inviting desire into [their] minds" or people who believed that they shouldn't even look at women even after reboot.

I think you raise a valid point here.  I agree that there is a tendency sometimes to overstate the need to avoid certain thoughts, or comments from certain quarters that tend to deny (or fail to understand)  our human nature.  We don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.  For example, there is nothing wrong with a man seeing a beautiful woman and thinking that she is beautiful (and nothing wrong with a woman seeing a good looking man and thinking he is handsome).  It is when the thoughts go beyond the recognition of beauty or attractiveness -- for example, into the realm of fantasizing sexually and/or seeing people only as sexual toys --  that we potentially get into trouble.

But sexual desire is a natural, God-given desire.  It seems to me that what we are trying to do is orient it in the right direction (i.e., to real people and not to pixels). and to not abuse our desires (e.g., looking at women or men as "playthings" to satisfy our desires), which I think is both a characteristic of habitual porn use and a symptom of it.

I'm glad you started this thread.  There are some interesting issues.

Totally agree.  The desire for sex, in and of itself, is not the problem with the sexual/porn addict.  The problem is the addicts compulsiveness to use sex or porn in a manner that can cause harm to themselves or others.  When someone has used porn compulsively to the point that it has caused friction with their sexual partner, caused physical damage such as ED, or their porn use has interfered with their personal life and become prioritized above basic needs to eat, sleep, or be safe it becomes addiction.  When I was in my addiction I was using porn several times a day at work.  Working out in public, my compulsive use of porn was putting my job, freedom, family life, and reputation at risk.  Obviously, to a normal person, these risks alone would have been enough for them to stop, but not me.  I was in a cycle of addiction.  I realized the risks I was taking immediately after I acted out, which lead to the feelings of shame and guilt.  Yet, the rush I got from acting out was stronger than my ability to recognize the risks.  The feelings of shame and guilt were remedied by acting out again.  In many ways, this cycle is nearly identical to the cycle that a heroine or alcohol addict might go through. 

My goal now in recovery is not complete abstinence.  My goal is to be happy and to come to a better understanding of what healthy sexuality is, which early in my recovery is something I have yet to fully understand.