Your ideas on sex addicts anonymous?

[Osa]

What is your experience of Sex Addicts Anonymous? The 13 step programme?

I have a hard time accepting the first step, idea that I could not control it. Technically I could. In the same way that an opium addict can choose not to smoke, true, but it is still technically a choice, just one influenced by an addiction.

The other issue I have with the twelve steps is with the fifth step, having to confess we have a problem to another person. Why? Only those who need to know should need to be told.
I have no experience of it but would consider it if I thought it could be beneficial
Your thoughts on it?

 

[jkkk]

Honestly?

If you cannot accept step 1 then 100% you're an addict. That's simply one of the most basic symptoms.

And the SAA might be of help, especially if the self-test on SAA or SLAA show that you have broad symptoms (many guys here have, so don't even try to beat yourself up for that).

The other things about steps is... well... you take them step by step, you know. Don't delve into step 5 if you don't accept step 1. It's pointless.

At the end you will be able to go again through previous steps, but it doesn't work the other way round.

I'm keeping fingers crossed for you, pal.

 

[Mbg]

I completely recommend SAA and it has helped helped me tremendously.  For me, the first step was about throwing in the towel and admitting to myself that I could not will myself out of my addiction.  I had attempted to control my addiction on my own.  My attempts were failures.  I'd go a week and then relapse and binge.  For some, they may be able to "fix" themselves without this admission of powerlessness.  I am powerless to my addiction, but I see no shame in admitting this.  I see it has a recognition of my humility.  Sex addiction is no different than substance addiction in that no one is ever "cured".  I am aware that I will never be healed and will always have to deal with this.  I say to anyone who is struggling and has tried valiantly on their own to recover from addiction with no result to come to a meeting. 

 

[challenged]

I have not been through a twelve-step program myself, but I know quite a few people who have, and I have heard several testimonies from others who have recovered from an addiction with such a program, and they seem to be very beneficial.  But it would seem rather straightforward logic that accepting the various steps of the program, particularly the first one -- which presumably is the foundation of the program or reflects its core doctrine -- would be important to achieving success. I would not think a program with multiple steps like these recovery programs would be particularly efficacious if one just starts tossing out any steps he doesn't like.

Mbg also makes an excellent point when he says there is no shame in admitting we are powerless.  It is pride that blinds us to the truth in this regard, IMHO.

 

[Osa]

You might be right. I just feel that I have to accept the decisions I made and make.

Yes I need help. Yet I still feel that however difficult it is for me to resist that I still have to own my decisions. I would feel that I am somehow making an excuse for myself by saying I was powerless to control it.

Or I guess another way of looking at it is that I am powerless without God but failed to turn to him hot strength.

Thinking about this I'd screwing with my mind heart and soul, but I guess I have to think about it to get to the next step.

 

[challenged]

Osa, someone who has been through a 12-step program can probably respond with more detailed information, but I don't think admitting that we are "powerless" or that we lack "control" with respect to a certain temptation means that we do not have free will or are not responsible for our bad choices.  Clearly, we do have free will, and we are not robots or animals (like Pavlov's dog) that cannot help but respond to certain stimuli.

I would think it means that we regularly and repeatedly fail to exercise our free will to make the right choice, and/or regularly and routinely fail to exercise the self-control that we possess, to the point that we are engaging in behavior that we know is self-destructive.  To put it another way, we are failing to "manage" the temptations we face in a certain area -- to the point that we need help.

I mean, we know as human beings made in God's image with the power to reason that we have the power and the capability not to watch porn.  For example, if you knew that the next time you used porn, your leg would fall off, I think you would probably be capable of resisting.  As it is, we are presented with a temptation that we are not resisting, and our current state of knowledge, our current circumstances, our analysis of the cost/benefits, our level of support, etc., are not sufficient to enable us to resist -- in the sense that we keep failing to resist.  So we need to obtain the knowledge of what we are doing, change our circumstances, retrain our thinking, obtain support, etc.  so that we can exercise self-control in this area (or another).

But you are right -- we clearly do have free will, which is further evidenced by the fact that people are able to recover from this addiction by making the right choices, "rebooting" their brain, and returning to a more "normal" state.

 

[toofat]

I don't really know about the first step, but here are my thoughts on the fifth one.

I feel like that concept likely stems from the thought that if you bottle up this thing you are trying to stop-and likely feel some shame over-then it stays with you and serves as something you can more easily revert back to.

Think about this scenario involving a person who has an alcohol problem. They have decided to quit drinking and are going through the steps. When faced with a challenging or weak moment they have these thoughts:

• Told other people: "I've told people that I've had an addiction but I quit. I can't go back to it now because it would make me a liar." It also utilizes the sense of shame many people feel over having an addiction. A person will want to avoid thinking, "I told them I've had an addiction but I quit. I can't stand to have them think of me as being a person who is addicted to porn. I can't go back."
• Only telling impacted people: "They already know I'm struggling; they'll understand."
• Keeping it all to themselves: "Ok, just this one more time is okay because..." They don't have to worry about telling anyone or explaining their fall back.

I know that sounds pretty extreme, but use your imagination and try to understand where a person's head space might be in those situations.

This seemed like a good response at the time I'd started writing it, but now I don't feel like it fully conveys what I'm trying to say. I guess my point is that I think the step of telling others is likened to owning that you even have an addition. There's strength in actually saying something, and saying it to other people just strengthens it even more.

 

[Osa]

Thanks everyone. I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Made the wrong choice again this evening and things seem to be going from bad to worse. What kind of screwed up mind does it take to get romantically involved with an escort?!  Why do I make these decisions? You don't have to answer. I hope to be able to meet with a therapist next week or the next. It's like I know the right choice but choose another path seemingly compulsively abandoning all self discipline not caring at all suicidal depressed enraged crying in private and sick of myself.

No I'm not going to hurt myself physically anytime soon but I just have to vent. Why all of these emotions surging this week? Just reached the end of a years along slide?
I guess I should just hold strong for a few weeks and until I speak to a therapist and go from there.

 

[Mbg]

Thanks everyone. I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Made the wrong choice again this evening and things seem to be going from bad to worse. What kind of screwed up mind does it take to get romantically involved with an escort?!  Why do I make these decisions? You don't have to answer. I hope to be able to meet with a therapist next week or the next. It's like I know the right choice but choose another path seemingly compulsively abandoning all self discipline not caring at all suicidal depressed enraged crying in private and sick of myself.

No I'm not going to hurt myself physically anytime soon but I just have to vent. Why all of these emotions surging this week? Just reached the end of a years along slide?
I guess I should just hold strong for a few weeks and until I speak to a therapist and go from there.

The SAA Green Book says something that I think might give you clarity of your situation.  "If we truly had the ability to manage our addiction the negative consequences would be enough for us to stop".  This addiction is not who you are, otherwise you would feel no shame or guilt for your behavior.  To me, this is what powerlessness is.  Our behavior contradicts our own values and morals and yet it persists.  I like how challenged put it.  It's not that we can't make our own choices, but it seems that our choices in addiction clearly demonstrate our inability to manage our own lives.  I would give up my addiction if I could but I know I cannot.  Dude, go to a meeting.  You may find what you are looking for.  It can't possibly hurt. 

 

[Osa]

Thanks everyone. I finally have an appointment with a psychologist this Monday and knowing that already makes me feel better. I have already typed out what I want to say so I can hand it to him otherwise I know I will just freeze. He can ask the questions or make his recommendations after that. Besides, I think the more difficult things to say are all typed out I think so I hope his questions will be easier to answer.
One step at a time!

 

[Blah432]

As a person who has gone through the 12 steps for alcohol and recovered, I'm not sure porn fits into 12 step. Its important to distinguish porn from sex addiction too as they aren't really the same thing, but they can inter-relate. Sex addiction is a big complex thing that involves relationships and the whole interpersonal dynamic more-so than the actual acts of porn, prostitution, cheating on significant others etc... The underlying issue is usually more about trouble relating and being incapable of tolerating genuine connections/closeness in a relationship.

Porn addiction on the other hand is just about porn- we love porn because of dopamine, its easy to access, free for the most part, and we just simply have trouble not doing it. It is very important to distinguish between sex addiction which is a function of the disease of addiction, and porn "addiction" which is not actual addiction. This can be difficult however because sex addicts will use porn, just like anyone else would. Its a lot like trying to figure out if someone is an alcoholic or if they are simply drinking too much.

 

[Tribulum]

Where I'm at there is both an SAA chapter and an SA chapter. I can only share my experiences as chapters in other areas may be different.
I wasn't comfortable with SAA. Way too focused on religion for my taste. Also. Some of the members seemed almost eager to cross the line with their stories. I felt quite a bit more at ease with the SA group. I can get some great support, and they really monitor conversation to ensure it is all appropriate. Both groups follow the 12 step program, which I find challenging, as I don't have a higher power. I would suggest you at least try the group. Like this site, it can be empowering to have an outlet to discuss your situation with others. Being face to face can bring a different demension to it all

 

[sender]

Working face to face with others can be helpful.  It's not just about the process, it's about the people. 

Some addictions are largely social (like drinking).  Porn is solitary - it isolates.  Getting yourself out of isolation and into a group of like-minded individuals, all of whom are struggling with something similar can help a lot in that you don't feel so isolated and alone with your problem.

Also, it can help to have others to hold you accountable until you can hold that for yourself.

 

[Mbg]

As a person who has gone through the 12 steps for alcohol and recovered, I'm not sure porn fits into 12 step. Its important to distinguish porn from sex addiction too as they aren't really the same thing, but they can inter-relate. Sex addiction is a big complex thing that involves relationships and the whole interpersonal dynamic more-so than the actual acts of porn, prostitution, cheating on significant others etc... The underlying issue is usually more about trouble relating and being incapable of tolerating genuine connections/closeness in a relationship.

Porn addiction on the other hand is just about porn- we love porn because of dopamine, its easy to access, free for the most part, and we just simply have trouble not doing it. It is very important to distinguish between sex addiction which is a function of the disease of addiction, and porn "addiction" which is not actual addiction. This can be difficult however because sex addicts will use porn, just like anyone else would. Its a lot like trying to figure out if someone is an alcoholic or if they are simply drinking too much.

They can be different things to different people, but I would use caution before saying ones porn use isn't part of a bigger complex problem for many people.  At first, I thought my addiction was just porn, until I began to look at myself more critically and my pick apart my past sexual history.  I uncovered many things in my past that seemed to fit the description of a sex addict.  People have a skewed perception of sex addicts just as they do of alcoholics.  "A guy that has to be drinking from breakfast til bedtime, he's an alcoholic..."  "A sex addict is someone who can't stop raping people or sleeping with prostitutes".  Again, this is a false impression of what a sex addict actually is.  A sex addict is merely someone who's sexual behavior is compulsive, someone who feels shame and guilt and who wishes to stop but can't.  For some sex addicts, compulsive use of pornography has become unmanageable in their lives.  Also, many partners of porn addicts might see that someone's use of pornography is no different than cheating... Again, don't paint with a broad brush.  Addiction is a complex issue..

 

[nD86]

Responding to Mbg's early post, I totally disagree with the twelve step approach. Sure, it'll work for some folks, but admitting that you're powerless in the face of your addiction... to me that just seems like you're setting yourself up for a lifetime of addiction.

Why, if you start something at 15, as an adolescent discovering the world, decide it's not worth your while by 26, would you then be condemned to a lifetime of addiction control? It doesn't make any sense. You started it, so you can end it.

My two cents: share and admit you have a problem, but don't give your power away making statements about a future you know nothing about. How do you know you will still consider yourself an addict in ten years? I know there's one way you most certainly will, and that's if for ten years you keep telling yourself you will always be an addict.

Look into Emotional Freedom Technique; do some tapping. This whole "addiction is forever" thing is a load of nonsense.

 

[challenged]

Why, if you start something at 15, as an adolescent discovering the world, decide it's not worth your while by 26, would you then be condemned to a lifetime of addiction control? It doesn't make any sense. You started it, so you can end it.

I'm not an expert, but this seems to ignore a lot about what we have learned about addiction and about the brain chemistry associated with addictive behavior.  If one could just decide not be addicted anymore and it was that simple, there would be a whole lot fewer addicts (of all kinds) and a lot fewer people engaging in compulsive behavior.

 

[sender]

+1 what Challenged said. 

I think people misinterpret the "powerless" thing.  It doesn't mean literally powerless; they are referring to the way addiction compromises the addict's decision making process.  I'm sure that all of us who are here (for more or less the same reason) can relate to the experience of finding ourselves doing that which we said (even just hours ago) that we wouldn't do.  While in the PMO cycle, the urge to PMO can become stronger (in any particular moment) than the will not to.  Compulsive behavior is by definition an impulse control issue.  That is what is meant by powerless in this context.  Admitting this type of powerlessness is important because it allows one to dispel the illusion that their problem is fundamentally a lack of willpower in the moment.  That's really not the problem - it's fundamentally a lack of commitment to long-term cessation of the compulsive behavior.  The out-of-control addict says, "I won't do that again", but what they really mean is "I won't do that again for a while".  The successful recovering addict actually says something more like, "I will never do that again...not ever.  I am fully committed to giving up this behavior for the rest of my life."  It's a subtle, but important difference. 

As for signing up for a lifetime of addiction control, I think that's what we are all in for.  Once you have become addicted to something (like porn), those pathways can become re-ignited at any time, so perpetual vigilance is the only real long-term solution.  The good news is that the cravings decrease with time.  Given enough time, the cravings pretty much go away.  But the *potential* for a relapse will always be there even when the cravings are not.

 

[nD86]

I'm not saying that you can decide not to be addicted anymore, just that there has to be a point when you can let go of the whole thing - and move to better mental, emotional, physical and spiritual pastures. A hypothetical: an eighty year old who hasn't PMO'd for fifty years. You think the moment he no longer considers himself an addict he's running the risk of a reset? Fifty years in chat sessions, reaffirming his addiction in a group setting; always afraid he might relapse. To me, that attitude is the definition of an addictive mindset.

Isn't this whole thing about regaining your power? Signing up to a religious programme that tells you that you are weak and powerless in the face of your brain coding, popping pills to combat your anxiety - sure, it may work for a little while to take the edge off the worst of it, if say, you're coming off a really intense addiction / binge, but it's just scaffolding, right? It's gotta come down at some point!

In regard to the powerlessness comment, please look into Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT). It's a technique that makes use of pressure points in your body to release emotional load. You may be powerless in the face of your impulses if you try to white-knuckle them with sheer willpower, but there are ways to engage your body in a conversation about what you're craving - to add a voice of reason to the debate, and to greatly reduce the physical component of what you're going through. True story, I did an EFT session a couple of years ago that lasted one hour (took me about two hours in preparation) - that's three hours of my life. I wrote down all the beliefs I had about PMO, how I truly felt about it and how I felt about myself doing it, ideas like "I can never give this up" to "this is so silly - I don't even find these chicks attractive" to "I want a real girlfriend" and a whole lot more. I didn't use P for more than two months following this session; hardly even thought about it. The physical component had become so much less that the rest became a dawdle.

Yes, admittedly, I did eventually come back to it, but on a totally different level. Ever since that session, it has gone from a habit that I engaged in almost daily, and felt a tremendous amount of emotional intensity around, to a once a week, "meh - let's get this over with" type thing. Sure, it's still not okay, but it's a whole sight better than where it was at before - and that's just after one session.

What I'm saying is that there are ways to create a more permanent sort of healing. Find out about EFT and learn to engage your body in conversation.

 

[sender]

The human brain is quite flexible - there are many ways to effect change.  12 step programs exist because most people aren't that sophisticated and benefit from a set program and the support of a group.  I'm not saying it's the only way to do it; it's just a very popular one; and for good reason!


No, I don't think addicts have to attend meetings for life, etc.  And I agree about moving on to a more positive mindset.  The point of 12-step programs is to help people who are struggling with compulsive behavior.  If you're not struggling anymore, there's no need to keep attending meetings.  In fact, I stopped going to SLAA at some point because I got tired of the constant focus on what I didn't want to be and decided to focus more on what I did want to be.


But it's helpful for a lot of people; that's the point.

 

[Mbg]

I'm not saying that you can decide not to be addicted anymore, just that there has to be a point when you can let go of the whole thing - and move to better mental, emotional, physical and spiritual pastures. A hypothetical: an eighty year old who hasn't PMO'd for fifty years. You think the moment he no longer considers himself an addict he's running the risk of a reset? Fifty years in chat sessions, reaffirming his addiction in a group setting; always afraid he might relapse. To me, that attitude is the definition of an addictive mindset.

Isn't this whole thing about regaining your power? Signing up to a religious programme that tells you that you are weak and powerless in the face of your brain coding, popping pills to combat your anxiety - sure, it may work for a little while to take the edge off the worst of it, if say, you're coming off a really intense addiction / binge, but it's just scaffolding, right? It's gotta come down at some point!

In regard to the powerlessness comment, please look into Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT). It's a technique that makes use of pressure points in your body to release emotional load. You may be powerless in the face of your impulses if you try to white-knuckle them with sheer willpower, but there are ways to engage your body in a conversation about what you're craving - to add a voice of reason to the debate, and to greatly reduce the physical component of what you're going through. True story, I did an EFT session a couple of years ago that lasted one hour (took me about two hours in preparation) - that's three hours of my life. I wrote down all the beliefs I had about PMO, how I truly felt about it and how I felt about myself doing it, ideas like "I can never give this up" to "this is so silly - I don't even find these chicks attractive" to "I want a real girlfriend" and a whole lot more. I didn't use P for more than two months following this session; hardly even thought about it. The physical component had become so much less that the rest became a dawdle.

Yes, admittedly, I did eventually come back to it, but on a totally different level. Ever since that session, it has gone from a habit that I engaged in almost daily, and felt a tremendous amount of emotional intensity around, to a once a week, "meh - let's get this over with" type thing. Sure, it's still not okay, but it's a whole sight better than where it was at before - and that's just after one session.

What I'm saying is that there are ways to create a more permanent sort of healing. Find out about EFT and learn to engage your body in conversation.

Whether or not you believe in the 12 step method there are millions of people who can testify to it's efficacy.  I don't believe anyone is arguing that the 12 steps are the only solution but clearly it is A solution.  Even the method you are suggesting sounds like a sign of ones powerlessness to addiction.  It's not as though you just woke up one day and told yourself you weren't going to PMO anymore.  You sought out external support knowing full well you could not simply talk yourself down.  That's what powerlessness is... Someone who needs a system of support in order to recover from their compulsive behavior.  I would also encourage you to cut out the PMO altogether, you might begin to feel the sense of powerlessness others have described.