A Brief Note on Pornosexuality

[leisuretimejoe]

This is a fascinating topic...  i really appreciate the porno-sexuality thing.

Just to add a spanner into the works regarding the objectification theory....  you should never be ashamed by the fact your eyes are drawn to a womans ass or boobs, it IS in our dna as men... Men were attracted to womens bodies long before porn came along... in fact prior to internet porn, from cave drawings to softcore porn mags, the reason porn exists is because of the attraction to womens bodies...

i would argue it has only become objectification with the introduction of the internet....  its a question of respect perhaps, rather than objectification.

my point is that it is worth remembering that there is no shame in being a attracted to womens bodies, you can make your own line in the sand regarding objectification. but objectification has been a thing way before pornography.... 

 

[Gracie]

Eyes drawn is one thing.  Ogling is another.  Making sexual comments out loud is another.  The last two are objectification.  And they existed long before the internet.  Attraction and objectification is not the same thing.  The look in my husband's eyes with attraction is totally unlike the look with ogling.  His actions are different.  And that leads to pornosexuality.  Just an SO observation.

 

[Vincent]

Objectification in general is more the fact of making an icon out of  a specific constellation of figure. An object per se is something one wants to possess or own. If a person is objectified, he or she is reduced to that specific part of interest. In case of the woman, primary and secondary sexual genitalia. Of course breasts and the thing they basically represent, the butt, are to attract a man's attention, as are the man's broad shoulders, muscles and build. BUT they are signs to attract attention to the whole person. What the term "Pornosexuality" is coining, is this reduction. And we find that reduction in our definitions of gender and sex. A man is a man, because he has a dick....and so on. This already is a reduction.

However, a man also cannot be identified as man, if the central aspects that society understands as "man-parts" are missing. And this is also valid for women.
The problem's core of the definition is that, over time,  the man-parts and woman-parts might have become the icons of the person. A simple reduction. And this the "object" woman is her breasts and other sexual parts, as a sexual object. This process might have been augmented by the internet, yes. On the other hand, this reduction is a very natural learning process and might therefore be very old: boobs = woman = sex.
By seeing a woman or man as what they are, people of different sex, natural attraction to certain cues is normal.

What is not normal is to leave out the subsequent process of bonding. If Pornosexuality is the term to use, I would say that it reduces the relationship to sex and to the reception of pleasure. The form of these is then forged by porn.

Thus, we learn from porn how to form a relationship and define a relationship over the act of sex.

We all have to admit, that we would have not regarded our present partners, if there would not have been also a form of physical attraction to traits or cues. But I think that is not the point here. What is important is, that pornosexuality might also change our way of defining what a good/bad relationship is. I already see it with myself. I have sex with my GF like 3 times a month. I say it is not enough. But why do I say so? because it is not normal? how many people have I asked about that? how many gave a true answer? I why don't I have the problem right now, as I am not MOing for over a month now with occasional sex? The fact that many of us out there think, sex is the MOST fundamental part of a relationship is the result of this.

But let's not forget, that this not only objectifies women. Men have this problem as well. What I do perceive to be a man and what probably many others do is no less than what we saw and still can see in those pictures, films and also in real life drama out there.....

 

[HumbleRich]

I just used, so I'm not going to start spouting advice.

Obviously, this thread is devoted to objectification within a romantic relationship.  I am talking about when one partner (in this case me) objectifies the other (my fiancee).

So there are going to be some obvious differences between this discussion and that on the topic of objectification of women in general.  I think it is the same problem, with the same source, but it has to be dealt with differently.

Or, actually, you deal with it the same way, by humanizing the person you are objectifying, regardless.

As far as I am concerned, there is no reason at all to look at the breasts or butt of another woman when you are in a committed relationship.    This is a value I have yet to realize in my life, but the goal is to not look at other women in any way that would upset my fiancee.

I mentioned that the process of stopping objectification is the same, and I do believe that.  If you have a problem with objectifying a coworker, the process is pretty much the same as it is to stop objectifying your girlfriend, fiancee, or wife (I will use the term, partner from here on out).

How can that be?  Because the problem is the same in both cases.  Yes, it is natural to look at your partner's breasts and her private parts, just as Challenged and others have purported.

It is perfectly natural to check out your partner. 

Checking out your partner isn't the problem.  Looking at your partner sexually isn't the problem.  The problem arises when that is all you do, or when all you do is look at her body, and it replaces active love making.

When I say lovemaking, I don't just mean sex, I am referring to everything that precedes sex as well.  The engagement through kissing and touching, gazing into eachothers eyes, long drawn out foreplay.

Porn is the death of that. 

Challenged is right in his assertion that there is a line between appreciating your partner's body and objectifying it.  I, as a recovering addict, would recommend paying attention to how your non-addicted partner looks at you for a model of what is healthy and what isn't.

My fiancee may be too far on the other side, but she is closer to healthy than I am and that is what is important.

It really comes down to frequency and variety at the end of the day.

It is natural to want to look at your partner's breasts, and if your eyes are drawn there at some random moment, then occasionally it is fine.

But she would also like it if your eyes were gravitated towards her own just as frequently, as well as to her hair, her face, her nose, anything else other than what is sexual.

There will be moments when my fiancee tells me, "Rich, you are staring at me."  I respond that I am gazing at her lovingly, she catches me in the lie and shows me what a loving gaze looks like.

I do know the difference, but it is so easy to forget to look at your partner lovingly, especially when you have a porn addiction. 

My fiancee showed me what my objectifying stare looked like and it was truly frightening.  Dead eyes, no expression. 

Which, perhaps is the biggest, most significant characteristic of objectification.  There is no connection, there is no expression on your face.  The porn stare is truly frightening and disgusting.

If you find yourself looking at your partner's breasts, at least have some sort of expression of appreciation or even attraction on your face.  Anything but the blank stare.

There is an old saying that if you want to remember to do something every day, you have to do it every day.

Maybe the same thing is true of attraction.  Maybe, in order to be actively connected and attracted to your spouse, you have to show it on your face, in order for your brain to say, "hey, I really love this woman.....and she has a nice body."

We men are so literal all of the time.  When our partner yells at us for looking down her shirt, we think she is yelling at us for looking at her breasts.

No!  She is yelling at us for reducing her to her breasts.

There is a big difference.  She isn't mad at us for being attracted to her, she is mad at us for objectifying her.  It is our job to find that line.

The last thing I want to say really reiterates what I said before about controlling how you look.  It is even more important to control what you do.

I intentionally mentioned the moment where my fiancee opened her robe and I just stared, because it so clearly illustrates the passivity that results from porn use.

Instead of reacting to her obvious signals, I just stared at her.  Perhaps the most significant step we can take in reconnecting with our partner, aside from the obvious step of getting rid of porn and masturbation, is in not allowing ourselves to EVER be passive.

When we make love, we make love actively.  We engage our partner, we make love with her, not to her. 

Many say that sex facilitates the rebooting process, and I agree, but only if it is active sex. 

Now to practice what I preach.

Rich

 

[Chaos Mind]

First of all I'd like to thank HumbleRich for sharing his ideas and thoughts with us and for his willing to discuss them together

I am indeed inclined to agree that a thing like "pornosexuality" exists. I get what you mean and I could feel these changes in preferences myself - only after I quit they became really evident and I find myself confused about these desires today. Then again I like to be cautious whenever a change is "radical", because I know that people tend to swing into the other extreme...like gluttony turning into anorexia.

What makes the topic so difficult is the old problem of our missing control group. In a society things become normal and accepted, once something is done by the majority of people. You say that ogling at your gf's boobs is bad and consider it objectification. But how do we find out if that's true? Ask 1000 men on the street and I bet that most of them find that ok. Can't speak for the girls though. Our community here is a peer group of men willing to change drastically. No one here will say that objectification of women is a good thing, because that's as if we were all to stop smoking and still some of us said "oh well, I did quit but I still think cigarettes are really a great invention!". So in this case you raise that topic and people tend to agree with you, because it accords with the dogma of our recovery process. Forgive me for raising the "but", but...

My girlfriend and I have been a couple for 3.5 years now. She is a quiet girl and likes things safe and sound. No big risks, no hard parties...prefers the pretty life with our dog and a little romantic TV movie on the couch. I am very happy with that because she leaves me space for my free time and is always there when I need a safe haven at home - yes, I picked her for a reason. But it's not the only one. When we are getting it on, she turns into a different person. I have never met a woman who allows herself to enjoy sex as much as she does. She knows how to let go completely. Sometimes she needs romantic love sex and sometimes she likes it rough. And - now there's the point - she sometimes asks to be objectified. I find it hard to explain without triggering the users here, but she definitifely asks for it aloud, encouraging me to "just take whatever I want". If at all, it's me who slows that down and likes to look her in the eyes when she prefers face down into the pillow. I'm not saying this is the only way we make love...but it's a thing.

Claiming that women always and only want to be regarded as careful beings, full of love and sweet innocent desires, in my opinion is a generalization many women would totally disagree with. Some like it dirty, rough and direct. 80% of the time my gf likes being caressed and treated with upmost respect. 20% of the times she'd prefer me ogling at her boobs rather than having a slight glance. She takes it as a compliment

Marriage counselors always advice that both partners shall not neglect sexual desires of their significant other. "Pretty and natural" is the basis for every relationship, but "sexy" is the frosting on the cake. Even when you are 50 years old, it's important to sometimes dress sexy for your partner. And in my opininion it's completely ok to ask your partner to do so. Of course it's not only what you say but how you say it. If my gf and I go out in a club I know for sure that I can ask her to wear a certain dress I like. She does the same thing to me by the way...she asks me to see a barber and spike my hair because she thinks that's sexy. And then she'd often touch my hair or my fresh shaved neck or squeeze my butt and I see the flames of arousal in her eyes. Does that mean she objectifies me?

I am sure many women are just like that. They want to be treated with respect. They want to be sure that men are in love with THEM and not with their body. But once a couple works together that well and trusts one another, the mentioned "symptoms of pornosexuality" can simply be a means to spice up a relationship. The only difficulty is: what's really good for the relationship and what's not? What does she do because she actually wants it and what does she do only to satisfy an unrealistic porn dream of mine. In my opinion it is our male responsibility to track down fetishes, faibles and urges...and find out if and how they are connected to our addiction. That also includes not to cut down any kind of kinky wish or behaviour we show.

Womankind doesn't want an all sugar-coated & honey-drenched male species, do they? Rough edges make us human and male... but even more so does respect and apprectiation. The balance is important and my personal goal for recovery is finding exactly this balanced state.

 

[Vincent]

Womankind doesn't want an all sugar-coated & honey-drenched male species, do they? Rough edges make us human and male... but even more so does respect and appreciation. The balance is important and my personal goal for recovery is finding exactly this balanced state.

I think that nailed it.
I can look at my GF with dirty thoughts in mind, if that is not the only thing I do. Men don't have to chasten themselves for having sexual thoughts, they just have to start to discover that those are but a fraction of their sentiment towards women.
Sex may be important. But to feel appreciated and respected is a more fundamental need of the "social being" that we are.

 

[Gracie]

Wanting things different in bed and enjoying them should not be objectification.  It should be a couple that cares enough about each other to trust and share the different things they like.  If the female partner likes "rough" sex, that means she trusts you with that aspect of her sexuality.  If you say she is objectifying herself then you are looking at her through porn eyes not love eyes.  We all have certain parts of our bodies we like our partner to touch with what ever touch we guide them to use.  That does not mean that the body part is an object, it is part of the shared sexual intimacy. 

Each person, knowing what sexually excites there partner, has the opportunity to participate in that sexually exciting experience.  The beauty of intimacy is they we choose to participate.  I know that my husband enjoys certain things that men sometimes do but not all men do.  Some of these things are things that woman do not necessarily like.  I enjoy them.  When he rebooted we talked about if certain things seemed porny or were they part of what we did because we had mutual enjoyment.  Mutual enjoyment stayed porny did not.  And yes we actually discussed them. 

In the middle of his porn use, if I indicated I wanted sex, he would ask if he missed a signal.  That is objectification at its finest.  The porn brain is what allows the objectification of life partners.  Me telling my husband I enjoy him looking at my body is not me objectifying.  It is mutually intimate.

 

[jkkk]

It is perfectly natural to check out your partner. 

Checking out your partner isn't the problem.  Looking at your partner sexually isn't the problem.  The problem arises when that is all you do, or when all you do is look at her body, and it replaces active love making.

When I say lovemaking, I don't just mean sex, I am referring to everything that precedes sex as well.  The engagement through kissing and touching, gazing into eachothers eyes, long drawn out foreplay.

Porn is the death of that. 

Challenged is right in his assertion that there is a line between appreciating your partner's body and objectifying it.  I, as a recovering addict, would recommend paying attention to how your non-addicted partner looks at you for a model of what is healthy and what isn't.

My fiancee may be too far on the other side, but she is closer to healthy than I am and that is what is important.

It really comes down to frequency and variety at the end of the day.

It is natural to want to look at your partner's breasts, and if your eyes are drawn there at some random moment, then occasionally it is fine.

But she would also like it if your eyes were gravitated towards her own just as frequently, as well as to her hair, her face, her nose, anything else other than what is sexual.

There will be moments when my fiancee tells me, "Rich, you are staring at me."  I respond that I am gazing at her lovingly, she catches me in the lie and shows me what a loving gaze looks like.

I do know the difference, but it is so easy to forget to look at your partner lovingly, especially when you have a porn addiction. 

My fiancee showed me what my objectifying stare looked like and it was truly frightening.  Dead eyes, no expression. 

Which, perhaps is the biggest, most significant characteristic of objectification.  There is no connection, there is no expression on your face.  The porn stare is truly frightening and disgusting.

If you find yourself looking at your partner's breasts, at least have some sort of expression of appreciation or even attraction on your face.  Anything but the blank stare.

There is an old saying that if you want to remember to do something every day, you have to do it every day.

Maybe the same thing is true of attraction.  Maybe, in order to be actively connected and attracted to your spouse, you have to show it on your face, in order for your brain to say, "hey, I really love this woman.....and she has a nice body."

We men are so literal all of the time.  When our partner yells at us for looking down her shirt, we think she is yelling at us for looking at her breasts.

No!  She is yelling at us for reducing her to her breasts.

There is a big difference.  She isn't mad at us for being attracted to her, she is mad at us for objectifying her.  It is our job to find that line.

The last thing I want to say really reiterates what I said before about controlling how you look.  It is even more important to control what you do.

I intentionally mentioned the moment where my fiancee opened her robe and I just stared, because it so clearly illustrates the passivity that results from porn use.

Instead of reacting to her obvious signals, I just stared at her.  Perhaps the most significant step we can take in reconnecting with our partner, aside from the obvious step of getting rid of porn and masturbation, is in not allowing ourselves to EVER be passive.

When we make love, we make love actively.  We engage our partner, we make love with her, not to her. 

I agree with every single word here.


Given the variety of the answers and viewpoints in this topic, let me share a few thoughts. Some of them general in nature, some of them specifically about the issue discussed here. Some initial statements may sound simplistic but I still think it's important to keep them in mind.


Number one - I think not all in this community must agree on everything. That said, I firmly believe that a variety of opinions is a huge VALUE of this place.

Number two - every guy here has different problems, everyone has a tad different addiction (and some may just not be addicted, but only suffer from PIED and are here to treat that problem). I know objectification is a serious one for me, I know it for some time and by comparing my experiences with many of the guys here I came to the conclusion that at least in that field I have an acute problem. The word "pornosexuality" is in my view very appropriate in describing the problem (to me it is an example of how a well-blend word grasps a complicated problem). To me it just seems that some guys simply cannot relate to what I tell about my problem with objectification. Some would probably even think that it really doesn't sound like a problem. And I'm on blaming them! I really would not like anyone here to have those kind of excruciating, intrusive thoughts that come to my mind as a result of this problem (which BTW in my view is somewhat OCD-like). The beauty of this community is that everyone can find help. HumbleRich, with the enlightment has shined on him (God bless!) in analyzing this issue, provides that help for me and many other guys, whose addiction developed in a similar way and who found themselves in life situations, where this is an issue.

Number three - everyone is in a different situation/relationship with a different person. For instance, I think that this thread as primary value for people in long-term relationships. Why? It seems to me that the whole problem with objectification/pornosexuality in a relationship may start particularly there where initial overwhelming falling-in-love phase is over. And it is over for many of those commenting here (I know my wife for... 12 years this September, and I fell in love with her the first time I saw her) - it's scientifically proven that this phase has a certain time span after which the brian stops squirting the same amount of chemicals at the mere sight of person you fell in love with. Now I don't mean, and spare me those comments, that the feeling of being in love is over, I just say it changes, it has a different shade, a different taste. Not better or worse - sometimes much better as the initial phase can be quite dramatic - but just different. And once you are in this kind of relationship you deal with the person you have there (sorry for the blunt wording, but it's not far from truth to me) and this person is unique. Sometimes she (if that's a woman) may be outgoing in nature to people, but demanding a lot of attention and gentleness in treatment. Sometime she might be an introvert who resembles a quite mouse but turns into a dominating lustful person in bed. Everything's great. She may (and some say 99% she will) change her taste in time. She might want to be treated gently in her 20s, but start to like it rough in her 30s. The factors are countless: health, kids, money problems, work problems, no problems. There is no "one size fits all" model.

Number four - I still think that the genuine thought with which HumbleRich started this thread holds true in all cases. Why? Because pornosexuality turn on YOURself. We are not talking if the girls like it rough here. If she does, she will tell you or you may ask. You will communicate. Where there is genuine communication and real contact, pornosexuality has no access.

Porn isn't that original. It depicts things that people did for thousands of years. Yes, maybe there are some genres that were "invented" but I'm really not sure that it was so many of them. If that's true, then it might be that people that "did it" did so voluntarily. I mean - why not? The problem with porn is that through proliferation of all these types of sex, acts, movements, fetishes and with the people glued to their screens, people are starting to believe this is how sex looks like and how EVERYONE like it. This is how women look like and what they like. This is how men look like and what they like (this point keeps getting omitted, but I'm sure a few guys developed problems from viewing porn and living to learn that without a penis of the size they saw in P films they have no chances of satisfying their partners).

Someone who has been exposed to all that from a very young age, for a very long time and with NO ALTERNATIVE (as I have been and HumbleRich too - I read this story and there are striking similarities) in any real relationships or sex with real women has their brain filled with P. A pornosexual brain so to speak. It's a fact! Now getting to know a real girl, starting and maintaining a relationship, starting to have sex in that relationship is just a shocking thing for us. Simple as that. It is absolutely impossible to take this pornosexuality into a relationship and maintain it healthy (with a healthy person I should say, because maybe two addicts could, but I have shivers from the mere thought of how that painful may be).

And this really goes regardless of the act if that woman has a body similar to these you can find in P films (I already read several testimonies of guys here who were in such relationships and still they were not satisfied, "something was missing", the same problem persisted) or whether she likes to have it like in the P films. Because pornosexuality is about closing one's ability to communicate and be in touch - with oneself and one's partner. And even if that girl likes you looking at her and objectifying her, would she really like to have it all time, as guys with pornosexuality tend to do? Come on.

 

[Rockit]

Okay, you guys are clearly people I need to chat to more. This entire topic has really helped me today. Thanks so much.

(Probably because I can see myself in so many of those comments.)

 

[challenged]

Excellent discussion! Our culture today, due to the internet and other things, relies so much on soundbites and bromides and dogma, often to the exclusion of reasoned analysis and a respectful dialogue regarding alternative points of view or different ways of looking at an issue.  This thread is a great example about how different points of view on a potentially difficult topic, and different backgrounds and personal experiences, can be shared in a respectful manner, leading to everyone being educated about both the issue and our fellow forum members.

Well done.  Thanks to all for your thoughts and to HR for raising the topic.

 

[Vincent]

brilliantly expressed

 

[HumbleRich]

Actually, my fiancee has expressed interest in rough sex, although she does enjoy the sex we have now.  But how do you learn rough sex without watching porn? 

Great input.  I appreciate it all!

 

[jkkk]

Actually, my fiancee has expressed interested in rough sex, although she does enjoy the sex we have now.  But how do you learn rough sex without watching porn? 

Great input.  I appreciate it all!

You can learn rough sex without watching porn. Even if you had to watch it, you watched enough to know by now.

 

[Vincent]

JKKK has a point there.
And further. Sex is "presumably" nothing that we actually "learn". It is an instinctive action. I would go as far as to say that the mood, the level of horniness and the attraction towards the person (sexual stimuli, not emotional) negotiate the level of "roughness" or "intensity" of the sexual act. I don't think that soft and slow sex is the "real sex".

Porn may be a fetish/extreme fantasy/perversion etc. of sexual action. But it all derived from somebody's experience and thus is something that has come from somewhere.

So my 2 cents are: you don't learn rough sex or slow sex. you know sex and you develop your "style" with and through the experiences, preferences etc. of your partners and you own desires.

 

[jkkk]

And further. Sex is "presumably" nothing that we actually "learn". It is an instinctive action. I would go as far as to say that the mood, the level of horniness and the attraction towards the person (sexual stimuli, not emotional) negotiate the level of "roughness" or "intensity" of the sexual act. I don't think that soft and slow sex is the "real sex".

Porn may be a fetish/extreme fantasy/perversion etc. of sexual action. But it all derived from somebody's experience and thus is something that has come from somewhere.

So my 2 cents are: you don't learn rough sex or slow sex. you know sex and you develop your "style" with and through the experiences, preferences etc. of your partners and you own desires.

I totally agree. And I must say, that personally I really didn't yet "develop" a style... I still feel my sex is quite influenced by P. I suppose it will take some time.

 

[Gracie]

@HR ask her what things she wants to try.  Or what her definition of "Rough Sex" is.  She can tell you.  Our safe word if something is more painful than we though is "OOOOWWWW!"  works every time.

 

[Steam rolled]

My husband and i read this together and he then seen what he had been doing for so long.
As i couldnt even bend down to pick up something off the floor and he was objectifying me constantly, wearing a bathing suit felt like i had wrapped myself in raw meat and jumped in a lion pit!
It got so bad i actaully would try and look dumpy just so he would not objectify me , but he still did! it just felt terrable! But became the norm.

Then porn abuse came to light he was a addict and surprise it has stopped!!!
The person i used to know apeared again, a total 360 within a short period of time, that included reading experiences here! And understanding what effects porn has on a human being.

Though he still loves to look at me and gets excited its not when im just picking something up off the floor. It mutual and fun
Life is soooo much better now that its gone!
And he apologized with a long sincere HUG.

 

[HumbleRich]

It's all about self discipline, being able to assess the situation and read your partner, and really respect her.  SteamRolled really hit the nail on the head when she described how she actually started to wear unattractive clothing to get her husband to stop objectifying her.  This is just a guess, but I think that our partners do this because they feel that someone has to do something proactive, someone has to defend their right to feel respected, and it isn't us. 

My fiancee has done this in the past too.

Unfortunately, I fear that society has protected the right of men to be reactive.  "Well, if you want me to stop looking at your cleavage, don't wear a shirt that displays it."

This is a fundamentally flawed way of thinking.  I noticed this when I turned it around. [I shouldn't have to say this, but just in case: I am 100% heterosexual.  This is just to make a point.]

Our partner knows what our flaccid penis looks like.  She has seen it many, many times.  If our package isn't visible in our pants, she still knows where to look and can imagine it.

There is quite literally nothing stopping her from objectifying us, when you really think about it.  So, why doesn't she?  Because she get objectified 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, by men she doesn't even know.  Why on Earth would she objectify the man she loves?

Having said this, my fiancee does check me out, including, occasionally, my package.  But it is random and spontaneous.  It isn't the type of constant attention that so many women complain about when it comes to their significant other.

Actually, come to think of it, even when she does check out my package in my pants, she does it with that charming, sexy smile of hers.  Not with a blank, pornified stare.

There is a line there, and it is our job as responsible partners to find it. 

 

[HumbleRich]

Thank you for the suggestions about sex.

When I really think about it, what I want is for sex to be something between me and my fiancee.  I want as little outside influence as possible.  She and I may look up positions in Kama Sutra or some other legitimate source, but that is about it.

I do think that sex is, for the most part, instinctive.  One of my goals is to really let go and feel free to express myself sexually with my fiancee.

I have so much anxiety over whether I am doing this right, or that.  I question what I am doing all of the time, and it really gets in the way of spontaneity and romance.

I think that by starting my porn history when I was a teenager, long before I lost my virginity, I inadvertently set the bar not only at an unrealistically high level, but in the wrong field.

Sometimes my fiancee wants slow, romantic sex, and sometimes she wants it to be rough, but regardless, she expects me to romance her.  It isn't a one night stand, it isn't porn.  It is sex with my wife-to-be.

And that is the difference.

 

[challenged]

Unfortunately, I fear that society has protected the right of men to be reactive.  "Well, if you want me to stop looking at your cleavage, don't wear a shirt that displays it."

I think this is one of those situations where both participants should exercise some responsibility.  Just because a woman is wearing a shirt that shows some cleavage, does not mean a man should ogle or stare.  Men need to control their thoughts and their actions in this area.  At the same time, just because a man should not ogle or stare, doesn't mean that a woman should not show some degree of modesty. Men are reactive, and they also tend to be highly visual.

So, I would say that people need to exercise self-control, and people need not to unduly tempt others.  As a father of two girls who went through the teenage years, I can tell you that sometimes my daughters and their friends would dress as if they had no understanding of the hormones that rage though young men (who are probably even more inclined to look and "objectify" because so many watch porn).  And this is not just me speaking; their mother also observed and often commented on the same thing.

Again, just something to consider, as the issue of what is appropriate modesty can also have some nuances or shades of gray.