A Brief Note on Pornosexuality

[Vincent]

I don't think it is a problem, as has been pointed out already, for men OR women to check each other out. To force oneself NOT to do it basically is also lying to oneself. What we DON'T have however is a "natural" way of staring - at least  not us porn addicts that are wired to LOOK -> don't forget most of our "sexlife" actually WAS consisting or staring!!!

If I dress nicely, I very much appreciate a woman checking me out looking at me like "wow, that guy's hot". I do the same thing, if I see an attractive "female" (sorry for the scientific terminology...explains better that way...)

The thing I noticed is: The fascination of "staring" decreases alongside porn use. Before I used to look at "body". I was whammed by that hot thing there and stared until my dopamine wasn't flowing any more -> and I surely looked like a ridiculous creep that never got to see a woman.
Now the looks are more in the face. I still look, don't misunderstand me. But I look into the eyes of a person. There is a certain limit of time to look into the eyes of somebody, signalling interest, affection or fascination. Too long is more of an aggression. Too short, especially looking away very fast shows disinterest or intimidation. So what I do now basically is, letting the "PERSON" know, that I find her interesting. What I did before was only looking without caring even about somebody noticing. so what I do now we could call flirting, what I did before I would call ogle - not caring what that person thought since I didn't care....

It is a very difficult matter in general. With my GF the relationship is different. To her I can "show" that I like her with my whole set of communicative channels. I DO sometimes still objectify her without even noticing - a very sad behaviour. But I am learning to accept that love can also be simple lying together without touching each other's genitals permanently.

Basically, I think everybody, woman or man, wants to be shown appreciation of him or her. To acknowledge that someone is attractive does not mean that I want to have sex with them in this instant. It doesn't mean that I like explicitly THAT person more than ANY other person. I think there is a very huge difference between attraction to traits/cues and bonding on a deeper level. If my GF tells me how damn good looking that guy over there is I look at him and say: wow, you're right, he's hot. I do that because 1. it then is also true and 2. because these are natural traits. The bond I share with my GF is deeper than those, although also containing them.

The main point when I realized that I was objectifying her was, when I reduced that bond to the level of natural responses, as I was used to do with the factor "woman" in general. "Women" for me were a synonym to sex. After now learning a different way of appreciating the person and integrating it into my relationship many things changed. I am not so lovey dovey any more. The bad conciousness for  only seeing tits'n'ass is gone and I don't feel like I have to be expressively nice in order to show my feelings. Actually, I feel less controlled. And that is a good feeling.

 

[Hetrix Mex]

That was a VERY WORTH-READ I thank you, Humble Rich

 

[Gracie]

I think what is important to see in terms of relationships and the whole objectification thing is:

Anyone can be objectified.  Only your partner can be seen through the eyes of love. 

And trust me even when my husband looks at me in an I want to jump on you right now way, he does not have the same look in his eyes as he did when he looked at women in an objectify, ogling sort of way.

And we women notice this because we want our men to want us.

 

[fightforlife]

Those are some heartfelt words right there from you.
Thank you, that "speech" ist really eye-opening.
I have not had a partner yet, but when I do, I want to treat her the she deserves it, even in my own head.
My goal is to become clean until summer so I can finally start a relationship. And I?m not trying to get a girlfriend just so I can sleep with someone. I want to give love and take love because that is what life is all about.

 

[Gracie]

Good for you.  You are doing this at a young age.  Your relationships will be so much better since you are doing this.  Believe it or not we want our husbands to really want us in a sexual way.  We are not "cold fish" as some would have you believe.  Some of us women change because porn is there in the man's mind and that really affects how he treats us and acts toward us.  We like it when we are the only ones, in their mind. body and spirit.

Keep going FFL the rewards for you will be great!

 

[jkkk]

The thing I noticed is: The fascination of "staring" decreases alongside porn use. Before I used to look at "body". I was whammed by that hot thing there and stared until my dopamine wasn't flowing any more -> and I surely looked like a ridiculous creep that never got to see a woman.
Now the looks are more in the face.

Yes, that's what I observe as well. Oggling and staring simply is a dopamine-releasing activity and its no different to P.

And trust me even when my husband looks at me in an I want to jump on you right now way, he does not have the same look in his eyes as he did when he looked at women in an objectify, ogling sort of way.

And we women notice this because we want our men to want us.

This is in essence the heart of the problem. P detaches us, addicts, from neural pathways connected with natural mating. To recover a natural "wanting" look, which is interconnected with all the delicate and sublime processes going on in our brain and body, just takes a really long time. Especially for those who abused this brain and body for a long time.

I do think that sex is, for the most part, instinctive.  One of my goals is to really let go and feel free to express myself sexually with my fiancee.

I have so much anxiety over whether I am doing this right, or that.  I question what I am doing all of the time, and it really gets in the way of spontaneity and romance.

I think that by starting my porn history when I was a teenager, long before I lost my virginity, I inadvertently set the bar not only at an unrealistically high level, but in the wrong field.

Yes, and this spontaneity is just switched off. What is switched on is a very specific pattern of thinking about sex, where what we watch in P starts to be the "matrix", substituting the natural desires and expressions that we all have.

This really hits on what Gary Wilson made the focal point of all his films on this topic - that sexuality is just such a basic and powerful mechanism that it makes P, preying on this mechanism, such a strong and destructive addiction. It sounds bonkers to think that by watching a video your brain thinks that you're actually spreading genes, but that is what really goes on then.

 

[HumbleRich]

I think what is important to see in terms of relationships and the whole objectification thing is:

Anyone can be objectified.  Only your partner can be seen through the eyes of love. 

And trust me even when my husband looks at me in an I want to jump on you right now way, he does not have the same look in his eyes as he did when he looked at women in an objectify, ogling sort of way.

And we women notice this because we want our men to want us.

This is a big part.  My fiancee and I just talked about objectification.  She told me that I don't realize how much I objectify her, before listing out just a few examples.  Commenting on how she looks in a dress, as if my approval was necessary.  Staring when she is changing, touching her breasts when it isn't appropriate.

I feel like it is all beginning to clear up now, and it seems so simple. 

She doesn't ask much.  She isn't a prude, she does like me to look at her body when we are being sexual, she does enjoy it when I touch her breasts, but only during sex.

As the fog clears I am really seeing many things I didn't see. 

There is a difference between wanting your partner and objectifying her, wanting her body and objectifying it.

My fiancee keeps on telling me that she wants our sex life to be more spontaneous, for me to initiate more.  She wants to be respected at the same time.

She doesn't ask much.  I have to take it up a few notches.

 

[Steam rolled]

When your SO is addicted to PMO just a simple you look good in that dress is not the same as when it comes from your SO who is clean of PMO!

At least in my case every comment towards me was objectifying when he was in his own world, and it made me feel grossed out by his actions and uncomfotable!

He admits it now so i know it to be fact because he is clean and his compliments are sincere now not Sexually motivated constantly.

Huge difference!

 

[challenged]

It can be a very difficult recovery process for both sides of the porn equation. 

I think most users on this forum can understand how a wife or girlfriend of a user might wonder sometimes what the user is thinking when the user says certain things about his wife's or girlfriend's appearance.  It is also understandable that it might take a while for these concerns or feelings to subside as the recovery process proceeds.

But the other side of the coin is that users who are in the recovery process struggle with the cycle of shame and guilt, and overcoming such feelings is not only a challenge, but the persistence of these feelings can themselves interfere with the recovery attempt.  Thus, I think it is potentially harmful to suggest that someone who is still in the recovery process (which can take quite some time, as we know) is so mentally impaired or incapacitated that they should avoid giving their wife or girlfriend any compliment on their appearance.  I think that some in the midst of the recovery process could interpret it as, "Because of your past struggles, you are subhuman and you can no longer participate in what amounts to normal polite discourse in a male-female relationship."

So, I think it is one thing to say to a user or a user in the recovery process:  "You really ought to think twice about saying your wife's boobs like great today, because that can easily be seen by a partner of an addict (or recovering user) as objectifying."  I think it is quite another to say, "You not allowed to say your wife looks pretty in her new dress.  Maybe in a year or two that will be okay."

These are complicated issues, and people are different, and have different experiences and challenges and types of relationships.  There is probably no one right answer for everybody and every relationship.  But I do think we have to look at these issues from all angles, and try our best to understand and support each other, and both users and partners of users need to carefully consider how what they do and say can impact each other's recovery.

 

[Gracie]

My husband and I are both avid book readers.  And we have noticed that books have begun to have gratuitous graphically described sex scenes in them now.  That really add nothing to the story.  So the hook is not just there in images they are now doing it with words.  And these are mysteries and such. 

BAH this should not be the way it is!