W
William
Guest
Hello everyone. Happy New Year to All.
I am writing this post in response to a post by @ DancingShadows, found here
https://www.NoFap.com/forum/index.p...use-permanent-brain-damage.85638/#post-694561
as well as the comments there by @ SnowWhite and @ Everyghing999.
I find the question, and the responses, quite interesting. I think everything we post here must be read and understood in the context that our understanding of the human brain ("our" being humanity) is still very primitive and early days. I also think that, due to our understanding of the human brain, still being so rudimentary, we have not developed a language sufficient to describe some of the concepts we throw around. For instance, @ Everything999, you make the distinction between "compulsive behavior" and "addiction." For you, those terms mean something, and for me, those terms mean something, but at this point in my journey, they mean essentially the same thing. Maybe, in another thousand years, our brain science will have figured it all out, and along the way, come up with words that more succinctly describe what we are talking about here.
I do believe "porn addiction" exists, but I am uncertain we have developed the language to define a commonly shared definition.
I think what Everything999 says about delta FosB to be quite accurate. I also think what @ SnowWhite says about learning a language to also be accurate and interesting. The thing about porn addiction, or compulsive hypersexual disorder using porn as a prompt for a dopamine high, is that it is a "learned" behavior. All of us, about 10-11 years of age, become fascinated with thoughts of sex. That eventually translates into being fascinated with the act of sex, which leads to actual sex, and, for many, reproduction, or, making babies. The scientific evidence I believe currently exists supports the conclusion that our brains evolved in that way as a means of encouraging reproduction of the species.
It works quite well, and has, the evolutionists tell us, for about 137 million years, when the first proto-mammal existed, our ancient ancestor, who got into their head, literally into their brain, it felt exceptionally excellent to fuck a lot. That feeling lead, and still leads, directly to us, and other mammals, making babies.
Then, about 20 years ago, we (humanity) invented a new toy, High Speed Internet Porn, HSIP. HSIP is what, directly, led to the addiction being possible. This is important. We, humanity, were susceptible to the addiction prior to HSIP, but, only after the invention of HSIP, did we have a means of exploiting that susceptibility. In fact, all addictions we suffer for are invented by us, in the sense we always were susceptible to them, but only later got around to inventing a way of exploiting that susceptibility to them.
So, we start with human brains that become fascinated with sex at around 10-11. And now, for about the last 20 years, those human brains are also able to access HSIP. And so, from about 10-11, many of us (the species) have discovered, unconsciously, that we can ride a dopamine high via HSIP. Nothing generates sexual thoughts, or hypersexual thoughts, like HSIP, which has a lot to do with another, evolved, brain, sexual, response, the Coolidge Effect, which means not only are we getting a dopamine rush via. the sexual thoughts that HSIP allows, but, we are boosting that dopamine rush by searching for the never-before-experienced sexual thought, which, again thanks to HSIP, we can now search endlessly for because, for all practical purposes, HSIP is infinite; we never have to see the same image twice, and we get off on that, or, put another way, the neurotransmitter called ?dopamine? rewards the search with a wonderful feeling that feels like liquid bliss.
Everything999 talks about delta FosB, which is another part of the dopamine reward system. Translated, what he says is, and what is absolutely correct, is that once we, the species, experience that reward for a sexual thought--and, then, ultimately, the prolonged, powerful reward HSIP results in--delta FosB makes it impossible to forget it happened, and therefore makes us aware, constantly, that it can, always, happen again, any time we wish to pick up HSIP and use it again. Because of that, Everything999 suggests this creates a permanent brain change, and from there he questions whether the addiction can ever be cured, because, essential to being addicted, is always knowing, wanting, and craving a high which, once we experience it, we can never quit knowing it is possible, wanting it, and craving it.
Everything999 is correct that, due to delta FosB, we can never forget how good it felt, or, literally, that using PMO and HSIP resulted in a powerful, profound, dopamine rush, that could be described as a permanent brain change, or, even, arguably, permanent brain damage.
That said, I choose not to describe it as such because I believe in ?brain plasticity,? meaning just as we learned to like it, we can learn not to. Understand that the addiction is Pavlovian. It is a learned brain reaction to a given stimulation. If the stimulation is removed, while the brain will miss the brain reaction, for a while, eventually, the brain will stop missing the reaction, at least not nearly as much as when the brain reaction is first removed. That is why we do the reboot. You will miss the dopamine reaction and delta FosB horribly in the reboot, and, like Everything999 says, due to delta FosB, you will never again, for the rest of your life, ever, be completely indifferent to HSIP, or the knowledge you can use it to cause this brain reaction. But, though aware of it, for the rest of your life, if you train your brain, teach it, learn, that you can live without it, the cravings seriously diminish over time. Many say after hard mode for 90 days. This is not to say that by day 90 you quit wanting it, but, rather, that by day 90 you may have successfully trained your brain to know it is not going to get it, to not want it so much, and to know you can live without it, rather, than when actively addicted, doubt you can live without it.
One of the mental tricks of overcoming the addiction is accepting that, just as we learned to abuse HSIP to obtain a dopamine high via PMO, we can learn to live without it.
The thing is, for millions of years prior to the invention of HSIP, we used our dopamine reward system to get a high. It did not just start happening with HSIP. HSIP altered how we do it, and make the behavior potentially addictive, but we have been using thoughts of sex to get that dopamine high since way before we exist in our current form. Many times that did not result in reproduction, and, eventually, we, and some other mammalian species, developed a capability that, also, is one reason the addiction is possible. We developed the capability of recreational sex, or, sex just for the fun of it, ?just for the fun of it? being using sex to get a dopamine high. Also, we developed the ability to get the dopamine high through the first form of artificial sexual stimulation, MO. MO, alone, without HSIP, though feeling great, meaning resulting in a dopamine high, was not addictive. Why not? It is finite, meaning the monkey doing it can only think of a finite number of other monkeys, and, because a monkey walking through the woods, MOing, and thinking of another monkey, is lion food, so there were environmental blocks, and practical limitations, making the obtaining of a dopamine high impractical and even dangerous, until quite recently.
The question was: does HSIP result in brain damage, or, does addiction to HSIP result in permanent brain damage?
I personally do not believe so. I know for a fact that overcoming the slavery to the addiction is possible, and I, and many others here, have done that. But, owing to delta FosB, we also will carry with us, for the rest of our lives, the knowledge that HSIP can be used to obtain that dopamine high. In that sense, the brain is always changed when it comes to be aware that some activity, or thought, will result in a reward. But, just because you are a slave to it now, does not mean you have to be a slave to it forever.
Thanks for allowing me to post. Though I will be free four years later this year, I still find thinking about the problem to be helpful in keeping me on the straight and narrow.
Much love.
Will I AM.
I am writing this post in response to a post by @ DancingShadows, found here
https://www.NoFap.com/forum/index.p...use-permanent-brain-damage.85638/#post-694561
as well as the comments there by @ SnowWhite and @ Everyghing999.
I find the question, and the responses, quite interesting. I think everything we post here must be read and understood in the context that our understanding of the human brain ("our" being humanity) is still very primitive and early days. I also think that, due to our understanding of the human brain, still being so rudimentary, we have not developed a language sufficient to describe some of the concepts we throw around. For instance, @ Everything999, you make the distinction between "compulsive behavior" and "addiction." For you, those terms mean something, and for me, those terms mean something, but at this point in my journey, they mean essentially the same thing. Maybe, in another thousand years, our brain science will have figured it all out, and along the way, come up with words that more succinctly describe what we are talking about here.
I do believe "porn addiction" exists, but I am uncertain we have developed the language to define a commonly shared definition.
I think what Everything999 says about delta FosB to be quite accurate. I also think what @ SnowWhite says about learning a language to also be accurate and interesting. The thing about porn addiction, or compulsive hypersexual disorder using porn as a prompt for a dopamine high, is that it is a "learned" behavior. All of us, about 10-11 years of age, become fascinated with thoughts of sex. That eventually translates into being fascinated with the act of sex, which leads to actual sex, and, for many, reproduction, or, making babies. The scientific evidence I believe currently exists supports the conclusion that our brains evolved in that way as a means of encouraging reproduction of the species.
It works quite well, and has, the evolutionists tell us, for about 137 million years, when the first proto-mammal existed, our ancient ancestor, who got into their head, literally into their brain, it felt exceptionally excellent to fuck a lot. That feeling lead, and still leads, directly to us, and other mammals, making babies.
Then, about 20 years ago, we (humanity) invented a new toy, High Speed Internet Porn, HSIP. HSIP is what, directly, led to the addiction being possible. This is important. We, humanity, were susceptible to the addiction prior to HSIP, but, only after the invention of HSIP, did we have a means of exploiting that susceptibility. In fact, all addictions we suffer for are invented by us, in the sense we always were susceptible to them, but only later got around to inventing a way of exploiting that susceptibility to them.
So, we start with human brains that become fascinated with sex at around 10-11. And now, for about the last 20 years, those human brains are also able to access HSIP. And so, from about 10-11, many of us (the species) have discovered, unconsciously, that we can ride a dopamine high via HSIP. Nothing generates sexual thoughts, or hypersexual thoughts, like HSIP, which has a lot to do with another, evolved, brain, sexual, response, the Coolidge Effect, which means not only are we getting a dopamine rush via. the sexual thoughts that HSIP allows, but, we are boosting that dopamine rush by searching for the never-before-experienced sexual thought, which, again thanks to HSIP, we can now search endlessly for because, for all practical purposes, HSIP is infinite; we never have to see the same image twice, and we get off on that, or, put another way, the neurotransmitter called ?dopamine? rewards the search with a wonderful feeling that feels like liquid bliss.
Everything999 talks about delta FosB, which is another part of the dopamine reward system. Translated, what he says is, and what is absolutely correct, is that once we, the species, experience that reward for a sexual thought--and, then, ultimately, the prolonged, powerful reward HSIP results in--delta FosB makes it impossible to forget it happened, and therefore makes us aware, constantly, that it can, always, happen again, any time we wish to pick up HSIP and use it again. Because of that, Everything999 suggests this creates a permanent brain change, and from there he questions whether the addiction can ever be cured, because, essential to being addicted, is always knowing, wanting, and craving a high which, once we experience it, we can never quit knowing it is possible, wanting it, and craving it.
Everything999 is correct that, due to delta FosB, we can never forget how good it felt, or, literally, that using PMO and HSIP resulted in a powerful, profound, dopamine rush, that could be described as a permanent brain change, or, even, arguably, permanent brain damage.
That said, I choose not to describe it as such because I believe in ?brain plasticity,? meaning just as we learned to like it, we can learn not to. Understand that the addiction is Pavlovian. It is a learned brain reaction to a given stimulation. If the stimulation is removed, while the brain will miss the brain reaction, for a while, eventually, the brain will stop missing the reaction, at least not nearly as much as when the brain reaction is first removed. That is why we do the reboot. You will miss the dopamine reaction and delta FosB horribly in the reboot, and, like Everything999 says, due to delta FosB, you will never again, for the rest of your life, ever, be completely indifferent to HSIP, or the knowledge you can use it to cause this brain reaction. But, though aware of it, for the rest of your life, if you train your brain, teach it, learn, that you can live without it, the cravings seriously diminish over time. Many say after hard mode for 90 days. This is not to say that by day 90 you quit wanting it, but, rather, that by day 90 you may have successfully trained your brain to know it is not going to get it, to not want it so much, and to know you can live without it, rather, than when actively addicted, doubt you can live without it.
One of the mental tricks of overcoming the addiction is accepting that, just as we learned to abuse HSIP to obtain a dopamine high via PMO, we can learn to live without it.
The thing is, for millions of years prior to the invention of HSIP, we used our dopamine reward system to get a high. It did not just start happening with HSIP. HSIP altered how we do it, and make the behavior potentially addictive, but we have been using thoughts of sex to get that dopamine high since way before we exist in our current form. Many times that did not result in reproduction, and, eventually, we, and some other mammalian species, developed a capability that, also, is one reason the addiction is possible. We developed the capability of recreational sex, or, sex just for the fun of it, ?just for the fun of it? being using sex to get a dopamine high. Also, we developed the ability to get the dopamine high through the first form of artificial sexual stimulation, MO. MO, alone, without HSIP, though feeling great, meaning resulting in a dopamine high, was not addictive. Why not? It is finite, meaning the monkey doing it can only think of a finite number of other monkeys, and, because a monkey walking through the woods, MOing, and thinking of another monkey, is lion food, so there were environmental blocks, and practical limitations, making the obtaining of a dopamine high impractical and even dangerous, until quite recently.
The question was: does HSIP result in brain damage, or, does addiction to HSIP result in permanent brain damage?
I personally do not believe so. I know for a fact that overcoming the slavery to the addiction is possible, and I, and many others here, have done that. But, owing to delta FosB, we also will carry with us, for the rest of our lives, the knowledge that HSIP can be used to obtain that dopamine high. In that sense, the brain is always changed when it comes to be aware that some activity, or thought, will result in a reward. But, just because you are a slave to it now, does not mean you have to be a slave to it forever.
Thanks for allowing me to post. Though I will be free four years later this year, I still find thinking about the problem to be helpful in keeping me on the straight and narrow.
Much love.
Will I AM.
