Excuses, rationalizations

metal22

Active Member
Chpcbr,
Maybe a more accurate way to say what you mean would be "you are not the cause of this addiction", which would be true.  I have said the "its got nothing to do with you" statement before,  so I've been there.  It just seems dismissive,  which I was subconsciously trying to be.
Finwe,
The Partners section is for partner.  If it was for married men or people in relationships it would say "partners,  and people in relationships."  There is no specifics on sections for people in relationships just as there isnt for singles either.  I'd imagine it was posted to give thoughts and perspectives to non partners.  I also disagree that most addicts on this forum are single (though you just said addicts in a more general sense).  Read the 30-39 and 40+ section and majority on there are not single.
 

metal22

Active Member
Yes I also find the topic to be provocative.  Thought provocative that is.  In my opinion,  for what its worth,  is just not watching porn isnt enough.  If a person wants to really beat this addiction,  then looking deep inside himself and finding the root is going to be necessary.  Otherwise relapses are very likely to occur,  and the damage from the addiction will last.  I've done a great amount of reading,  thinking, praying,  and listening.  I've pretty well discovered what lead me to porn,  why I did what I did and why I still struggle.  Its an extremely hard road,  and I have soooo far to go.  But I'm determined to beat this. I want to be a better person,  no just a recovering porn addict.
It would be wise for all of us to listen and try to understand many perspectives from many different people.
Just wondering though,  what is it you find offensive?
Also know I'm only here to help as much as I can,  and to learn as well.
 

Emerald Blue

Well-Known Member
Going back to Gracie's original post, from time to time some guys who are caught up in porn addiction have, on occasion, have referred to their partner's unavailability or apparent lack of interest in sex, and some have even gone as far as to complain about their partner's lack of skill or willingness to do certain sexual activities. I've even read one guy describe his wife as being "a prude". These and similar excuses have all been used at some time to justify a porn habit. At the same time, some porn addicts won't communicate with their partners, and so whatever difficulties there are in the relationship, they can't be put right.

In addition, and probably far more commonly expressed, is a porn addict who does not want to tell his partner about his struggles with porn addiction. Somehow these guys want to "cure" themselves by the 90 day reboot and somehow "rewire to a real woman" i.e. their long term partner who has no idea (or so it is presumed) about what's going on.

Most of the partners of porn addicts who join this forum will very likely read all the info on porn addiction and have a fairly good understanding of the theoretical explanation of how porn affects the brain and how addiction develops. We do get that "it's not personal" within that context, but it's also true that as porn addiction develops, the relationship dynamics will also change over time. The partner certainly picks up on many things feeling a bit "off". The irony is that it's the partners who can't understand why their SO has lost interest in sex. In fact, I would guess that we could deal with it a lot easier if we really were married to someone who wasn't into sex all that much. But when you realise that it's not that they aren't into sex, but are actually diverting all their sexual energies into the pursuit of internet porn, and in some cases webcams or strippers or whatever. That's a lot harder to take. Especially when you add in the long term deception and lying, and manipulation, in order to pursue it and protect the conditions that allow it to continue. That's where it begins to feel very personal.

With regard to who posts what in which section of the forum, sometimes there is overlap between addict issues and partner issues. I also want to stress that the partners section is for all partners of porn addicts. Typically we are female partners of male addicts, but all partners of porn addicts regardless of their sexuality are welcome, for example a male partner in a same sex relationship with a male porn addict is equally welcome as a heterosexual woman married to a male porn addict. It's not a women's group by definition, it's a group for partners of porn addicts.
 

Gracie

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
I know some wonder why I put this here in Porn Addiction.  If you read through posts and names of journals, ED, PIED, PE, DE all drive men to look for help.  Single men, wake up!  If you do not have an SO hopefully some day you will.  Even if you are healed, change is a big trigger for relapse and you may hear yourself saying the things above in the first post.  For those single now, here are some you may be using:

I am not hurting anyone. 

I need a release.

I deserve hot women.

I am alone.

I am bored.

I see her with clothes on any pic or video with clothes off.

It feels good.

No one will ever know

All of which can be true.  But if you don't stop using, then the other list will be your go to.  I do not want any one to go through the pain my husband did.  I do not want anyone to go through the pain I did.  I do not want anyone to have to through the pain our marriage did. 

So if this seems provocative, I have achieved my purpose, I have gotten you to think.

Peace

Gracie
 

Gracie

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Posting back at Metal.  That is the purpose of this post.  To help both PAs and SOs realize it is not things.  It is not the excuses and rationalizations, it is not PIED, ED, PE, or any other initial.  You can get where sex is possible and occurring regularly, but if you don' t look inside yourself and see why porn is the choice, you will not succeed.  Leaving porn behind is about living externally not internally.
 

aquarius25

Respected Member
"HappyHousewife", I think your perspective of porn is probably not appropriate for this forum. It sounds like you are encouraging and fine with porn. why come to a porn addict site then? Not sure what your goal and purpose here are? You sound a lot like a troll that we have encountered before. Posting thoughts and participating in the conversation is great but attacking language is a bit much. I think most would agree that being respectful is appreciated in all forums on this site.
 

Gracie

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
I am going to unlock this topic once again.  I do this because this is an important aspect of addiction.  It is about what we tell ourselves to make doing something that could harm someone or ourselves okay. 

Please be respectful.  Do not let anger be a part of your response whether you are an SO or a PA. 

Peace
 

Gracie

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
I have been having some great, but painful at times discussions with my husband.  We have been using the Hold Me Tight, 7 Conversations book by Sue Johnson to help us get past communication roadblocks. 

I think like most people who are SOs of any cheating or addicitve behavior I want to know why.  "Sure it was a rough time, but why did you not come to me?  Instead you reached for_________."  Then fill in the blank.  For those who are single, you can reach out to someone even if you have no partner.  In the PA world, we know what is reached for. 

Most men will tell their SO all the things that have been listed above.  Or some of them or some version of them.  Or think them in their brain.  Mine used a lot of them even though consistently I am told, in front of him I look much younger.  (However at my age I will never look in my 20s or 30s.)  But at the end of the day, it was the porn stars looks.  And we see over and over men choose much younger women. 

So in our world SO wise, our men reach for their penis and desire young.  And yet they are willing to risk it all. Their marriage, their kids, their jobs.  If you look at Weinstein, Cosby, Clinton, and others, an orgasm was worth risking it all. 

Take responsibility for what you do.  Talk to your SO.  You start the conversation for once.  Be kind to those in your life on this roller coaster ride.
 

Henry99

Member
But what about men who have different fetishes? A lot of them, including myslef want to be in regular relationships and have genuine affection/love for their partner but it is difficult to work this into their sex life with their partner. I am not saying Porn is the answer but it does help fill a real void. It is like having a broken leg... you can't fix it but you can take a pain killer so you are not in pain. I don't mean to minimize the points being made on this thread how some men can seem insensitive or put blame on their partner... that is wrong. I am just saying just because the man is seeking comfort/relief in something, in this case porn, does not mean he does not still care about his partner. Especially for those of us with fetishes that may be off limits with a partner you live with and care about. Sometimes there are good reasons for things. Just saying
 

Emerald Blue

Well-Known Member
It depends on what the "fetishes" are. And also, if fetishes and fantasies are never discussed with one's partner, how would you know that your "fetish" can't be integrated into the relationship? Women can have fetishes, preferences, curiosities, and certainly fantasies. So it's not the case that only men have fetishes, nor is it the case that women are not open to trying things. If you have a genuine fetish that a partner is not interested in, regardless of whether you are male or female, then perhaps you might as well accept that you are sexually incompatible and move on, for the benefit of both partners.

It's also true that some "fetishes" and preference is porn-induced, that is, people trawl various categories after the other stuff gets predictable so they can end up being aroused by more extreme genres. Bearing in mind that shock and fear are physiologically identical to excitement, it can be possible to develop a preference for something that previously repelled you. So porn addicts need to question where their "fetish" comes from - something that developed from wiring the pathways in your brain through repetition, i.e. you are conditioned to respond like a Pavlov's dog. Only through quitting porn will you find out. Otherwise you're just strengthening your responses through repetition. Bear in mind that you are looking at a screen. You aren't actually taking part in anything with anyone when you use porn.
 

aquarius25

Respected Member
So putting my personal opinion of porn aside I guess a point I would make/ question to ask is whether or not you are being honest with your partner about your fetishes and porn use? If you are really certain that your fetish isn't a result of your brain looking for more stimuli and it is a genuine interest? Have you told your partner about it? If you have, and they said it is not their thing? Then have you talked with your partner about viewing porn relating to this fetish? If not then why not? A big part of the issue and one this thread was making, and something I have had to sort out in my own relationship is this. Is it really a "partnership" if you aren't being honest? Seems like one person is withholding information and you are not on a level partnership. I view it more as a manipulation. One person is consciously choosing to withhold information, that they know would be an issue, and lying and covering up to create an untrue sense of reality in the relationship. That is not a partnership. We can call is things that sound nicer but these "excuses" and "rationalizations" and blaming it on addiction, I am sorry but that doesn't make it ok. It's actually gaslighting, and its wrong. My husband was not honest and bout something he knew would be a huge problem for me. He lied, he manipulated, he even went as far as to use drugs to help him with his ED and not tell me. I entered a marriage, I put all my money, time, and investments into this relationship. All the while, he was not being 100% true to who he really was. That is not ok. That is not honouring, loving, or kind to someone you supposedly care about. We are working things out but no it doesn't make this ok, ever.
 

Emerald Blue

Well-Known Member
This question appears to be from a single man who wants to use porn, so our answers are only hypothetical. There's something a bit....familiar about the way this discussion is going. I wonder why that could be......?
 
H

HumbleRich

Guest
Rich, recovering alcoholic and porn addict here.

Only once you are free of any drugs and addictions do you have the ability to know what you like in bed.  I mean, no alcoholism, no drugs of any kind (save for caffeine, but only if it is not a problem for you), and over 90 days sober from porn and masturbation. 

Alcohol and drugs are the same: at least 90 days.

My wife and I are trying to habe a baby.  Even now it is her that is in the lead, because of me being only a few days into AA. 

So, basic rule of thumb is that you do not know what you like until you are free of all of this shit.

Get sober first.  Then think about what you like in bed.

Kapish?
 

Henry99

Member
I have had these fetishes for as long as I can remember. Probably since about 7 years old. Way before P came along and way before the internet. It's about as natural to me as breathing. However it is very true that the intensity of then has escalated due to PMO and also due to many life real life experiences. With that being said, I am in desperate need of a reboot and beleive this will help lessen the intensity of these fetishes. I also believe it will bring a host of other benefits, but I do not think I will ever not have these fetishes that I have had my entire life.

I am not advocating porn use or lying to a partner in a relationship. I do think that's wrong. I am just saying that everyone has natural desires and it may be very difficult to have these desires satisfied in real life or with a real partner. Not only that but PMO is a distraction from real life problems and acts as a "stress relief". We all know in the end it leads to problems and probably more stress, but in the short term it is like a band-aid. And I don't think it's the worst band-aid. I think a lot of partners have the right to be upset or feel lied to and cheated on, but no one is perfect. I'd argue there are worse things than looking at porn..... heavy drug use, resorting to prostitues, cheating, gambling addiction,.... even smoking cigarettes will kill someone faster than a PMO addiction.

Perhaps honestly is the best policy when it comes to this, disclosing it to your partner. But let's face it, that is not that easy. And you have to wonder.... if it was disclosed to you instead of you finding out the hard way, would it make it that much better!?! You'd appreciate the honesty but let's face it... your still going to be pissed and feel much of the same way you feel now.
 

aquarius25

Respected Member
I think my point is that it should be disclosed at the beginning of the relationship. That way an informed decision of weather or not you want to presue the relationship is based on all the facts. That would negate the hurt feelings in the first place. The deciving should have never occurred.
 

Henry99

Member
I understand your point but how reasonable is it to expect someone to disclose this at the beginning of a relationship!? Not easy, not practical, and you'd run like hell. You'd all run away. And that's all you'd end up knowing, associating, and remember about him... not all the other good things you've come to know. It's is ideal but not practical to expect someone to disclose stuff like this. Taking it as far as lying when confronted is different. But again, expecting outright disclosure.... no one is going to do that, not at the start of your relationship especially. This is not directed only at you Aquarius... my response is directed at all this thread and all the comments I have been reading.

To be honest it is disappointing to have read this thread and many of the posts from woman on this site. Many of yous sound like you're crucifying your husbands for PMO!?! And you all sound like your holding serious grudges. I understand your frustration; being uspet, venting a bit... but it's very extreme. These posts go on for pages about how violated you feel. The degree to which you have taken your husbands PMO problem so personal is not proportionate to the problem. If he went out and had an affair behind your or if he was doing drugs or gambling all your savings I could see....but really it's not even close to that. I chalk it up to different walks of life and different experiences.... what is a major problem to you may be a paper cut to someone else. Not to minimize your feelings but keep in mind there are worse things out there. Keep in mind there are real life factors and reasons that people often seek things like this... and it's not cause they are some horny lieing cheating pervert. And it's probs not cuase they don't love you either.

My point is everyone has a vice (some worse than others)...  still everyone needs a way to unwind and maybe even escape there reality at times. Everyone needs a way to relieve stress and everyone wants to fill their desires and fantasies. Yeah there are more healthy ways to relieve stress but it's not always practical or easy to compare. A lot of them require more energy, time, effort, mental energy, maybe even a lot of $. Good habits are harder to do, bad habits are the easy quick fix ones. It's no wonder a lot of us fall victims to them. You may not be a victim of a bad habit right now in your life but one day... it is very possible.

Yes would be ideal your partner was perfect and did not have these tendencies. It would be ideal if he asked you to fill these fantasizes/fetishes but you may be more turned off than you are now if he asked you. Let's face it... you are angry but you question yourslef a bit too finding out like this. Maybe that's necessary to some degree, no offense. I bet you have a bit more of the desire to fill those gaps now... wondering "why didn't he aks me to begin with?" Why did he have to do this instead of come to me?!? You care more. I am reading many of your threads here. A lot of you feel angry frustrated and upset but you care.

The other scenario is he came to you and said i have always had these fetishes/fantasies etc. hoping you would fill them. Let me tell you from my experience... a lot to woman are not into these things. That would likely turn you off even more than you are turned off now. You don't want to admit that but it's likely true. You claim woman have there own fantasies/fetishes and all this.... maybe you do, but it's not the stuff you found on your husbands internet. I can assure you we are talking about different levels here. I don't want to generalize but it is true that male fetishes are going to likely be a bit more "hardcore" than a females. 90% of woman are into plain vanilla sex with a little something on top. There is nothing wrong with that but coming from a guy with these natural innate fetishes/fantasizes vanilla is extremely boring. The way I see it is some of these fetishes, bdsm, and many other kinks is actually more sophisticated form of sex/play. It is more mental, more psychologically, more interesting. For those who have this as part of them (and not just as a result of escalated porn use) it can not be compared to regular sex. Ideally it would be mixed with sex, but regular sex alone cannnot replace it.
A lot of woman don't take the time to understand a mans fetish. It's simply turns them off... they don't wanna know, they don't want to take on the role, they simply look down upon it. And maybe it's also not practical to take on the role... housewife by day, dominatrix by night!?! Yeah maybe If you dedicate real time, interest, and can do it well. There are real hurdles to this stuff. I am using the bdsm/femdom stuff only as an example cuase that is my thing, but it would apply to any sexual fantasy.

Y'all make me scared to ever disclose this problem to my partner for fear she would react like this and hold a grudge.

Last thing I can say here is no one goes into a relationship disclosing all there fetishes and then deciding if the woman is compatible based on how she reacts to their darker dirtier side. How practical is it to expect that? Just like no one goes into a relationship disclosing all there weaknesses, bad habits, worst experiences in life. Lol. Let's be in reality. Your partner likely had all the good intentions about you, your sex life, wanted to be honest, and all that happened was reality.... Real life, real desires, fantasies, stress, etc. It caught up with him. It was always there underneath waiting to come to surface. Life happens and when you are weakest it takes hold. You have things like this you are burying too and maybe one bad day the wound opens and there you are on the wrong track. Your wouldn't want your husband to turn on you and say I didn't know about xyz... you didn't tell me. How were you to know. My point is this is not premeditated stuff. Don't take it so personal. It could be a lot worse. I ended up a legitimate slave to several woman.  Really... a 24/7 slave/servant to several different woman. Obligations, repsonsibilities, expectations, work, chorses, cleaning; chauffefing, deadlines, demands that must be met. No joke. You can remind me many times over slavery is not legal here and from where I stand and what I have been through it wouldn't make a difference. I have been molded and trained both mentally and physically to look at it a certain way. It is next level addiction and real Pavlov's dog stuff. Quite literally trained and beaten into me. It is almost impossible to walk away.  Not much choice in the matter anymore. I am just as badly mentally enslaved. Trust me this is a much worse problem than just PMiO. My point is it can always be worse. Maybe that puts it more into perspective.
 

Gracie

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
It can put many things in perspective if you take the stance it could be worse.  However, when I married my husband we made promises to each other.  We made commitments to each other.  Sexual exclusivity was one.  Having sex with each other was another.

But, putting those aside for a moment.  We also made a promise to be one.  A unit.  A family.  That brings with it the responsibility to talk about successes, failures, ideas, goals, kids, jobs, disappointments. We made a promise to communicate.  Be there for one another.  Care emotionally, physically (not just sex) but care needed in illness, or incapacity.  Share all things.  We promise to reach out and both hold and hold on to one another. 

If every person that is married and uses porn, would look at the above, I think they can say the second paragraph is what is gone from the marriage.  And that second paragraph is the glue for a marriage.  Without the glue, a true committed, intimate, rock your world sexual relationship cannot happen.  And trust me, when you have that relationship, recreational sex will not measure up.
 

Henry99

Member
Fair enough. The only thing i have to aks  is.... are you sure these things have to be exclusive? You said...

"We also made a promise to be one.  A unit.  A family.  That brings with it the responsibility to talk about successes, failures, ideas, goals, kids, jobs, disappointments. We made a promise to communicate.  Be there for one another.  Care emotionally, physically (not just sex) but care needed in illness, or incapacity.  Share all things.  We promise to reach out and both hold and hold on to one another."

Lots of good points and Id agree this is all a good framework for a healthy marriage but are you sure by acting out with this PMO stuff he has neglected you in all these other areas you mention? Is it not possible to have an issue with the PMO and still be there for you and communicate openly with you (for the most part)?

You would know better than me, obviously it is not my relationship or up to me to judge. It may have effected your life in a lot of ways but I would argue that there are probs a lot men out there that can actually meet there responsibilities, care for there partner at the same time and have some issues with P. Meaning if this was the case or even if it was partly true it may not be as bad you are taking it or let's say as bad as you are "feeling" about it. What I am saying is it can be fixed more easily if there is some truth to this.

Each situation is different but I am sure there are cases where what I am saying is true. Meaning it doesn't have to be one or the other. I am not sure "not being there for you in a general sense" can all be tied back to Porn use. Maybe it can but it's something to think about. Maybe Porn is just being focused on here because it is the thing you can find fault with, but it may be a scapegoat for other issues. Maybe you would feel this way if there was no PMO and just find something else to blame? Just a thought?

Again it's a matter for you to decide. I'm only trying to offer a different perspectives (for what it's worth). 
 

Gracie

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
I lived it for 15 years.  I am sure he did.  I was the witness.  I was the one that experienced it.  His sons asked what was up.  The entire family noticed that what he once said was important no longer was.  I had a health problem and surgery.  He was not there for me.
  If you truly have read all the female posts, SO wise, then you know we all sensed the shift the feeling things werent right.  Most all of us were told everything is fine, when it wasnt.

 
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