Excuses, rationalizations

[aquarius25]

And I will add that I had disclosed during our dating period almost every sexual experience and fantasy that I had with him. He reciprocated and I had thought he communicated his. I considered him my best friend and did not keep things from him. I told him my darkest secrets that I had. Sure there were things I might not want everyone to know, but I didn't hide them from him. I think if more people were more open from the beginning then it would save a lot of time. I am not saying on the first date, but most definitely before you say "I do" and legally tie yourself to that person! Maybe if during the "get to know each other" part people were really open and honest about who they are they would find someone more compatible with them. It is when one person is being open and honest and the other is not that you run into problems.

 

[Emerald Blue]

Seems like a lot of. assumptions going on here, and partners of porn addicts being told what they think, what porn is, what their men are into, and lots of the usual crap like we have unrealistic expectations and that we?re pissed off because our men fail to live up to our unrealistic ideals.. nothing new here under the sun. Zzzzzzzz......

OK. First thing to say here is: I did not in any way ?make? my husband quit porn. He developed a compulsive habit (or addiction, as some describe it) and he wasn?t happy in that situation which was entirely of his own making. In the end, masturbating to a computer screen alone in room hoping nobody was going to walk in on him wasn?t his idea of a good time. He didn?t know why he was doing it any more, he found it a lonely miserable experience. Along the way he developed the usual trajectory of erectile dysfunction, and who wants that? Not me. Porn addiction is a progressive condition, it creates and strengthens the reward pathways in the brain to the extent that a porn addict can?t function sexually in real life sexual experiences. They only function with porn and eventually even that stops working for them. That?s what happened to him. Neither of us knew what porn addiction was until after he quit but once he read the research it all made sense - why he was compelled to repeat the behaviour regardless of whether he actually ?liked? it. He quit porn two years ago and doesn?t want it, doesn?t miss it. Porn, he says, was always a very poor substitute. And I know he?s right.

OK... ?at least it?s not drinking/drugs/gambling? blah blah. Well, if he wanted to gamble away his money that was always his choice, but it?s a choice he never made. Note that I?m saying *his* money. Not ?ours?. I have my own. I would kill a relationship stone dead from the get go if anyone thought I was gonna be their cash machine, or if there was any hint of financial irresponsibly. I have a friend was married to a gambler and is now divorced. Yes it created a lot of problems but in the end she?d had enough and had to put her kids first. I?ve witnessed other addictions in my extended family and I know what it involves, and in those cases the partner ended the relationship when they?d had enough. Nobody knows for sure whether addiction will emerge later in life, and we deal with it according to our individual circumstances. Relationships have ended because of porn addiction, not because it?s just some guy doing something to alleviate his stress or whatever, but because of his porn use is affecting how he relates to his partner, and even how he relates to his kids.

But all of this is hypothetical for me anyway. My partner became addicted to porn, not gambling, not heroin, not alcohol, not anything else. If something is causing a problem, it?s causing a problem. You either fix it or you don?t. Either way, the relationship could end or it could endure. The best possible outcome is what suits both. In my situation, my partner was relieved to quit porn and hasn?t looked back since. Nobody made him do it. It was his decision to quit.

Fetishes: what you are describing here is YOUR fetish. You seem to be extrapolating YOUR sexual preferences to our partners and husbands. Well, I have news for you. Not everyone shares your fetishes. So, you have a fetish. I say, ?so what?? I?m sure many people could care less. I can talk openly with my partner about sexuality. I am proactive in finding out what he likes, or would like. I know what fetishes are. I know what?s out there. I?m not naive. But guess what? I don?t really care what other people do, where they go, who they meet, what their kink is.... What is it to me? I?m not in a relationship with them. People do whatever they do. So what? If kids are being abused, no way. If animals are being abused, no way. If vulnerable people like mentally handicapped people are being abused, no way. The consenting adult stuff? Don?t care. End of story.

About disclosure, it?s always easier when the facts are disclosed than discovered piecemeal. Speaking hypothetically, if someone revealed aspects of their sexuality that I could in no way accept, then I doubt I would continue a relationship with them. I don?t want to be, nor have I ever wanted to be, the good little compliant wife married to some guy living a double life. I?d rather be single. Why sign up for years of deception? It doesn?t make sense.

There?s plenty more I could say but I do have a real life in the real world to get on with rather, so I?ll say cheerio now.

 

[HumbleRich]

Henry, you do realize that you would be kicked out of AA for this type of behavior right?  You don't walk into a recovery facility and then denounce the addiction.  You are a nutcase.

 

[HumbleRich]

I mispoke.  If you are an alcoholic or drug addict you cannot take your drug of choice moderately or healthily and must quit the drug permanently.  There is such a thing as moderate alcohol dependence or early stage alcoholism.  If someone realizes they are on the road to being an alcoholic and catch it early, there is a chance that they can teach themselves to drink moderately.  Almost noone catches alcoholism at this stage.  I repeat, if you are an alcoholic, you must quit alcohol.

As an AA member I just want to make myself clear.  Thank you.

HumbleRich

 

[Henry99]

Gracie if what you are saying is true than you  you are correct. Sounds like this was a more extreme case where is effected every aspect of your life and relationship, that is devastating to here. I am truly sorry to hear about your health problems and hope you are on the mend with this.
Aquarius I'd have to agree it's ideal you would want disclosure of all this but maybe your husband didn't even realize or acknowledge the degree to which it was important to him at the time and overtime it more or less took hold? Maybe it wasn't so much an issue but crept up on him and he didn't know how to handle it.

Still I am surprised he did not make even a little disclosure of this. I agree that is weird. As difficult as it can be it would seem impossible to not get into just a little, but I can see possibly holding bakc some things if he thought it would scare you away. No one wants to scare a woman away with this stuff. As I said before you can have strong feelings care/love a partner and still have your fantasies.... it doesn't have to be one or the other. If I had a hunch it would scare a woman away I'd be hesitant to tell her. In that case she is actually more important to me than the fantasy isn't she? Holding back a darker dirty fantasy because it's not worth losing her. Holding bakc to protect her and protect us? Is it selfish or just good intention? If you look at like this maybe he put you first. At least initially. He put you above his darker side and his fantasies... people have to do that with all sorts of things everyday. They have to make choices about what they share and who they share it with. Filtering is normal even with a partner. Maybe at some point it took a stronger hold and he so he could no longer hide it, but i doubt he planned that would happen. He thought I will just bury this down somwhere cuase I am into Her. Natural way to respond to something like this. And when it continued to creep up he was probably like "shit how I am gonna spring this on her now? She will take it the wrong way."

Ms. Blue I got lost in there. But I am most happy to see your man was proactive in addressing the issue and quitting for himself. It something to be Proud of. He is certainly much further along than me. It is encouraging to here.

HumbleRich I am in no way discrediting the addiction or minimizing the problems partners here have had to face. I am only offering some different perspectives. There are many ways to look at it. Sometimes people need to hear another side of things too cause it's easy to get one track minded when emotions are running high. We can all agree PMO can cuase issues in many areas, it's how we respond to the situation after it has happened. It's how we look it and how we move forward. I personally think there is a lot to gain and learn from if a person is able to come out the other side of an addiction. It's not all bad.

 

[Gracie]

Mr. Henry, if you feel the way you do, why are you here on the Nation?  If porn assists you in your fetish habit, then you need to quit porn.  This is a site for quitting porn not justifying reasons to use.

Do not make assumptions about my husband's porn use.  Compared to most not extreme, but it did disrupt our relationship.  Once someone is deceiving it spills over to others. 

 

[Henry99]

I want to free myslef from PA just as much as anyone else here. It's effected my life and relationships in many negative ways. I am in no way advocating the use of it or trying to rationalize it. Maybe you are referring to this statement... "personally think there is a lot to gain and learn from if a person is able to come out the other side of an addiction. It's not all bad."  All I am saying is "if" you can rid yourslef of the addiction you may end up stronger for it. I've had that experience with other addictions in the past. But the key word is "If" you can rid yourself of it. I am nowhere near the path to recovery where I stand today with this.

As I already mentioned in my case the PA, Fetishes, & fantasies has led me to seek out these dynamics in real life. This is not a good a thing. I don't view it like... "this is real life relationship, real life, real sex" so it's okay. Not at all. I view it as an extension and escalation of PA and don't see it as healthy despite it being real (not on a computer). Let's face it, being a servant/slave to women is not a healthy lifestyle and if anyone knew the specifics behind these arrangements it would be really shunned upon. Actually it would probably be shocking and disturbing in many respects.

I will admit I have learned a lot about  woman along the way (certain types of course); selflessness, putting a woman's needs first, acquired many service oriented skills, and have even got certain several certifications/licenses/diplomas in areas I would have never gotten otherwise, but these positives are greatly outweighed by negatives. Again, it's PA that led me here. I want to be free of this and have a healthy relationship and sex life where I am someone's equal just as much as anyone else.

I happened to find this particular thread interesting because I am very interested in how partners feel about this. It is more important to me to see how these behaviors and addictions affect real relationships and partners.. And in my case, I don't mean the woman I serve in these dyanamics... I mean real partners, gf's, woman I date now, have dated in the past, etc. See it is not all bad having a submissive mindset engrained into you... you learn to put a woman first.

What I did find here when reading  this thread and other threads with woman's responses about their partners... is it really varies on how a woman feels depending on how bad the PA was for their partner, how the man handled it, how the partner handled it, etc.I don't mean to come off like I'm judging or being critical but in some cases (not all) I found it a disturbing and harsh. However more I have read i have changed my view to some degree but still there are certain things I have read that don't make sense or add up. Some criticism and blame that seems exaggerated or unfair. But I realize I don't have all the facts and judging from the outside. But I am trying to  understand more about a lot of things. In the other respect there are stories/situations that are devastating and I have a lot of empathy and respect for what many partners have been through.

I am personally at a crossroads whether to continue in these dynamics or leave it behind and commit to a real relatisonhip with someone I am getting more serious with. Someone I would be an equal to. What I won't do is string her along and lead a double life. Never. I am either going to call it off or move forward and call off the other dynamics which is extremely difficult to do. I don't want to minimize a PA addiction, but when you let it escalate to real life it is even harder to break away. Beyond this decision, it raises questions about coming clean about my past, my fetishes, my experiences, my vulnerability to relapse down the line. The question about whether or not a fetish (one you are born with) is natural and appropriate to purse vs. viewing it as something that is unhealthy. Where do you draw the line?!? I don't think there is one right answer for this. Can I be in a real relationship with a woman who is open to my fetishes and be satisfied!? My experience so far tells me no, not at all. Being dominated and having my fantasies/fetishes filled by a woman I am an equal to is not the same as it is with a woman I am 100% submissive to. And that submissiveness is held together by serious ultimatums and circumstances I am forced to accept. These are conditions a real partner could not easily set in a real relationship or marriage.

Agian im not looking for a sympathy card as I have made decisions that have landed me here. But I do find myself in a more peculiar situation, cuase beating PA (on a computer) seems like one thing, but is different when you are replacing full on real lifestyle and real woman who quite honestly I am addicted to mentally alongside real extreme physical attention, this is despite what they have put me through and done to me. Like I said I am treating the lifestyle as an escalation and extension of PA, cause that's really what it is.

 

[AppleJack]

My husband lived a secret life for 16 years, behind my back, to do that he lied, deceived and manipulated me. He knew that I wouldn't have married him if he had been upfront that he was going to use porn the whole time, but instead of giving me the option to walk away he didn't. He decided he wanted to have his cake and eat it. All good for him, but seems a shitty deal for me. You currently aren't in a relationship but you are advocating lying and deceiving as a way to get into one and maintain one. I wonder if it would seem so ok if it was her doing that to you, maybe she fails to mention that actually she's addicted to prescription meds, or gambling or something else, or even that she use to be and your first knowledge of it is 10 years and a few kids down the line when she relapses and goes, oh yeah I forgot to tell you, or better yet, it's nothing to do with you. It really isn't about the porn, it's about the lying and deceiving and manipulating that goes into maintaining that addiction whilst keeping a partner in the dark, that takes a hell of a lot of effort on the part of the addict, it's certainly not unconscious or spur of the minute, it's takes planning to lead a double life. I know what my husband was looking at and I'm not disgusted by it, in fact if he'd told me it would have been something I would have been interested in joining in with as I myself have fantasies that run along very compatible lines, but you know I was never given that option and indulging them now would probably activate his addiction pathways.

As partners discover this we have to deal with our reality not being what we thought it ever was, I honestly felt like my husband was a stranger because the man I married, the man he led me to believe he was, wouldn't have done that, not ever.

I guess what would be most helpful is addicts actually try to feel what it's like to be on the receiving end of that deception, most of them don't want to, cos they are still looking for a quick fix to their problems. None exist though, no matter how hard you look. What's totally illogical to me is the amount of effort put in to avoiding recovery and looking for quick fixes is so much more than just joining the rest of us in reality and dealing with your problems.

I also think of it this way, you knew it was wrong to deceive and lie to your partner the same as a heroin addict knows it's wrong to mug an old granny to pay for their next fix, would it be acceptable for the heroin addict to tell the granny it had nothing to do with her. Cos basically porn addicts saying that about their partners it's the same thing, we've been mugged, mugged of the past we thought we had, mugged of the marriage we thought we had, mugged of the men we thought we had married. But no, it's not us, it was never about us. Please!

 

[Henry99]

I can understand what you are saying about it being more than the porn itself... it's about lying and hiding something from you. And also about all the effort that goes into hiding it. I get that. I feel your pain.

But you are also saying that your husband actually knew he was going to use porn for the next 16 years when he met you?!  Either way he did so it's not cool, I get that. But do you really think he put thought into it and said to himself.... "I'm going to use porn and hide it from my wife for the next 16 years?!?" Furthermore do you think he thought it would be "so bad" if he did!?!? To be honest,  90% of men don't give it a second thought,  It's like whatever.... Its Just porn. You just look at it. You don't plan to use it into your future or even think twice about it.  It's not a big deal UNTIL IT IS!!! Until you land Yourself here and realize in hindsight it was messing with your head and messing up your relationship all along! I think I speak for most men when I say they don't realize the damage is being done while it's happening. It's not like sticking a needle in your arm. We aren't brought up in society to view porn as a bad thing with the consequences we now know it has. Remember these forums and the internet itself is fairly new still. 10 to 15 years ago there wasn't a single resource about this stuff. You think he knew the damage it was cuasing all along? To you? To himself? To the relationship?

Is it fair to suggest he should have given it more thought and should have known it was wrong?  Agin my point is I think "intention" makes a big difference in some of these cases. Your asking him to have disclosed something that likely wasn't even a thought in his head at the time. When did you find out he was looking at it? How long ago? And when you found out did he stop using it or continue to hide it from you? Cause thats what's most important. If you confronted him and said you were unhappy with it and he continued to do it.. well that is a different story.

So you won't indulge his fantasies now cuase you are still mad or cause u think it will activate his pathways? And this will ultimately lead him back to more Porn? These are some of the same Fantasies that fall in line with yours?

Please go bakc and read my posts more carefully. I specifically said I would never lie to the woman I am seeing. Never lead a double life. Not knowing what I know now about this stuff now.

This is exactly what I said.... "I am personally at a crossroads whether to continue in these dynamics or leave it behind and commit to a real relatisonhip with someone I am getting more serious with. Someone I would be an equal to. What I won't do is string her along and lead a double life. Never. I am either going to call it off or move forward and call off the other dynamics which is extremely difficult to do."

I am specifically saying I won't do this stuff behind her bakc. I'm going to come clean if i plan to move forward with her.

 

[aquarius25]

There seems to be an attitude of acceptance in lack of integrity. I know my husband didn't intend to use porn till he experienced severe ED. He didn't purposefully hurt me. But, when the subject came up he didn't admit to the use he had been doing. He was not in integrity, he was not his word. He chose to lie. He went as far as to take an extreme amount of medication purchased over the internet to hide this problem. He spent money on the medication, he went to extreme efforts to conceal this and it went on for almost 13 years.

I understand that in our culture it is generally accepted that men look at porn. That is why when we were dating I asked about it. Because I know to a lot of men, they don't see it as a big deal. What concerns me is the acceptance of secrecy and lying. There seems to be an attitude of nonchalant-ness to dishonesty. Why? Do you not view honesty in a high regard? Do you not see it as important? If you lie about a lot of little things they add up. They tell the person you are lying to that you are not your word. That when you say something, it might not be true. So when there is something important, how can they trust you? If you are willing to jeopardize your integrity over small stuff how will you handle big stuff? This acceptance of lying and lack of integrity is really disheartening. You claim you wouldn't want to lie to a woman but with this attitude of acceptance toward a lack of integrity....well how can I believe your word? And when you are married to a person who you discover this about, who you have built a life with, well that is a different story altogether. Our culture as a whole really needs to look at the content of character that we are seeing and really think about what is happening. Does this attitude of lax integrity really bring joy to anyone's life? How does this lack of accountability and responsibility help men to recover? To me, this is a bigger issue than porn.

 

[Emerald Blue]

Porn wasn?t even an issue in relationships when I met my partner. Prior to the internet guys only ever had the occasional magazine and porn use was limited by accessibility and affordability. So if my partner had admitted to the occasional magazine I?d have just shrugged it off with a ?so what?? reaction. There?s a whole world of difference between the era of the nudie magazines to the always-available explicit-as-you-like endless supply of online porn videos that can be accessed at no cost, at any time, in ones own home or even mobile phone. My husband didn?t become a porn addict until he could connect to the internet at home. It wasn?t that he never used porn before. He did, but he kept it hidden away so I didn?t know. Looking back , there were big clues that he was going to fall into porn addiction but I didn?t know about it until after d day.

I make no secret that I was aware of my husband?s porn habit. Yes, he was using porn in the knowledge that I wasn?t happy about it. There is something unhealthy about that, I agree, but in W context of the whole relationship, there were still many, many good and positive aspects to the relationship. Over the longer term, as the addiction progressed, the relationship became adversely affected in many different areas, not just sexually.

Nobody knows what?s going to happen in a relationship over the next 10 or 20 years. Everyone wants to be happy and have a relationship that is supportive and nurturing. Each life stage brings about new and unforeseen challenges, some good, some not so good. Just because someone isn?t a porn addict (or a sex addict or an alcoholic, etc etc) at the outset doesn?t mean that they never will be. Making a commitment is always a risk because we can?t predict the future. In my situation, I could not have envisaged the emergence of my husband?s porn addiction.

After our d day, I would far rather have had a full and honest disclosure about my husband?s acting out behaviours. At that point we were re-committing to a ?new? relationship and I wanted to know who this person actually is, this person that I was considering spending the rest of my life with, because I didn?t want to be in a relationship with a porn addict, or a sex addict, or a liar, or a cheat, or a serial adulterer, or a strip bar customer or a john. I wanted to know his acting out history. He?s done some of those things, but not all of them. It would have been far easier if he had disclosed his past behaviours than the trickle truth scenario, peppered with lies and omissions. But that?s what most of us get.

Learning about your partner?s behaviour when it?s been going on for years without your knowledge is a tough call for anyone. It turns your world on it?s head. The person you thought you knew becomes a stranger. Your past looks like one big fraud and thoughts of your future are filled with uncertainty and anxieties. We see it over and over on here ?it was the lying that hurt most?. From one who has been there and done it, don?t deceive your (future) partner.

 

[Gracie]

Warning for men with partners.  You may find that your partner is being or will be triggered by events in the news currently.

Do any of the others here that have endured past abuse find themselves being triggered by the events in the news?  I remember all of that and then how when I married my husband that there would be no more sexual harm.  Then we have the whole porn thing occur in our marriage and I felt so duped and stupid that I thought he was indeed different than the rest.  And he was not.  He is now.  However the wound went so deep, maybe it just made the old wounds reopen or everything went deeper I don't know.  But I find my self getting pissed (in general mostly but some at him)  when it is on or gets discussed. 

He even said the other day he never thought of me being triggered by that.  And I said, "An old guy lusting after young girls and wanting them to have sex with him is not similar to what you did how?"  And that is it bottom line.  And that is how it feels it is us and our age and our being past our youth. 

And then I think of my own abuse and sexual assaults.  Bleah!!!!!!  And yet no one realizes that it is our culture that causes this.  The valuation of sexuality above all else.  We read of all the recent pedophile raids, (police, Drs., detectives, teachers, ministers) the men in Hollywood, politicians and it is all men risking everything for an orgasm.  EVERYTHING risked for that!  UNREAL. 

 

[aquarius25]

Yes, and I am only in my 30's! We have been on a family vacation and the "#metoo" thing was circulating. I have been reflecting on it over the past few days. It shows me a few things that have really left an impact.

1, that so many women have had terrible experiences, like half of the women out there seems. This behaivor is rampant in our culture. It is as if we have accepted this as a norm and go about our lives almost surprised when we encounter a woman who hasn't been abused or harassed. There is something terribly wrong with that, like, for real!!!! This is NOT OK!!!

2, When I reflect over my husband's actions and attitudes in our marriage as his porn addiction grew it pains me to say that he is part of my me too experiences. That hurts, like really hurts. If so many women have been affected by this cultures lack of moral character we need to starts asking ourselves who the #Ididit's are in this world. Why are there so many men and boys responsible for this? What are we doing in raising men and boys that find this behaivor not only acceptable and normal but enjoyable? This is NOT OK either! I don't want my son to be an #ididit!

If we peel back all the layers of root causes and look at what we are left with it is clear that we have a culture void of good character. I talk to kids in my children's scout groups and they don't even know what character is! We need to give intention and a real focus to building communities rooted in quality character. Honestly, respect, self-control, compassion, integrity, loyalty, creativity, understanding, empathy, and so many more. This is where the change begins!

 

[Emerald Blue]

I know we?ve already got a thread running on this very topic in the partner?s section, but the #metoo phenomenon has shown that just about every woman has experienced sexual harassment, assault or rape, or unwanted sexual attention of some kind. EVERY woman. I became so invisible to my porn addict partner that he actually had to ask me once ?how do I know.....?? about all these things and I had to tell him I know because I?ve lived those experiences. Duh.

I told him a list of the ?small stuff? like being followed, being watched, sometimes as a guy masturbated, being touched inappropriately by random strangers, being approached on the street, on the bus, in the park, talking to men in social or business situations whilst they keep looking at my chest, etc etc etc. And then I went on to tell him how intimidating this feels, the sense of fear and threat that follows you wherever you go, the way you have to scope out your environment constantly, work out which is the safest route to walk, don?t take the bus after a certain time, be careful where you sit on the bus, etc etc. I tried to get it through his thick skull that THIS IS WHAT IT?S LIKE! And no woman likes it. We don?t think ?oh that guy is following me, he seems really nice, I?m so flattered that he chose to follow little ol? me?. No, it?s ?OMG, that guy following me? Is there somewhere safe I could go, like a grocery store? Is it safe to use my phone? Who can I call? Shall I get a cab rather than do the 5 minute walk to get to my house? I don?t want to be followed. I don?t want him to see where I live? Is there anyone at home?? And so on.

I couldn?t get over how oblivious my husband was about all this being my reality, and that it?s how it is for all women. This was quite some time before this case and the women who made public their experiences with #metoo. If my husband was this ignorant about all this behaviour towards women and was oblivious to my own experiences, and that he once believed that his porn consumption was ?harmless fun? and that he actually said that he ?couldn?t see what difference it would make? to our relationship, then I have to ask what his warped ignorance is all about. Is it the way the culture conditions men to think, is it the toxic influence of porn consumption along with the attitudes and underlying assumptions about women contained therein? Or is he genuinely lacking in empathy? I don?t get it. I?ve been through the gauntlet of unwanted sexual experiences and yet I ended up with a porn addict. It?s a serious mindfuck. Sometimes I don?t know WTF I?m dealing with.

 

[malando]

I know we?ve already got a thread running on this very topic in the partner?s section, but the #metoo phenomenon has shown that just about every woman has experienced sexual harassment, assault or rape, or unwanted sexual attention of some kind. EVERY woman. I became so invisible to my porn addict partner that he actually had to ask me once ?how do I know.....?? about all these things and I had to tell him I know because I?ve lived those experiences. Duh.

I told him a list of the ?small stuff? like being followed, being watched, sometimes as a guy masturbated, being touched inappropriately by random strangers, being approached on the street, on the bus, in the park, talking to men in social or business situations whilst they keep looking at my chest, etc etc etc. And then I went on to tell him how intimidating this feels, the sense of fear and threat that follows you wherever you go, the way you have to scope out your environment constantly, work out which is the safest route to walk, don?t take the bus after a certain time, be careful where you sit on the bus, etc etc. I tried to get it through his thick skull that THIS IS WHAT IT?S LIKE! And no woman likes it. We don?t think ?oh that guy is following me, he seems really nice, I?m so flattered that he chose to follow little ol? me?. No, it?s ?OMG, that guy following me? Is there somewhere safe I could go, like a grocery store? Is it safe to use my phone? Who can I call? Shall I get a cab rather than do the 5 minute walk to get to my house? I don?t want to be followed. I don?t want him to see where I live? Is there anyone at home?? And so on.

I couldn?t get over how oblivious my husband was about all this being my reality, and that it?s how it is for all women. This was quite some time before this case and the women who made public their experiences with #metoo. If my husband was this ignorant about all this behaviour towards women and was oblivious to my own experiences, and that he once believed that his porn consumption was ?harmless fun? and that he actually said that he ?couldn?t see what difference it would make? to our relationship, then I have to ask what his warped ignorance is all about. Is it the way the culture conditions men to think, is it the toxic influence of porn consumption along with the attitudes and underlying assumptions about women contained therein? Or is he genuinely lacking in empathy? I don?t get it. I?ve been through the gauntlet of unwanted sexual experiences and yet I ended up with a porn addict. It?s a serious mindfuck. Sometimes I don?t know WTF I?m dealing with.

As an average dis-empowered joe, I'm going to level with you here. Maybe some guys are just blind to the reality that women have to deal with in regards to sexual assault/harassment, but I think most of us get it. We understand that women have to deal with a lot of sexually focused crap that we don't normally have to deal with, but our seeming lack of empathy probably stems more from a general sense of powerlessness and dissatisfaction with our own lot, rather than any sort of meaningful contempt for women. When women speak up about dealing with daily sexual harassment, the overwhelmingly majority of men just aren't that tuned in because we are busy eating our own sh!t sandwich of a slightly different flavor. We are busy living our own live's and wondering if we are being stalked on the street by someone who want's to beat the crap out of us, or if we are going to lose out on that promotion at work, because our female coworker has discovered a useful shortcut to receive the promotion from the male boss. So when we see an extremely powerful alleged serial harasser/assaulter/rapist in the media we as average Joes aren't likely to be bustling along trying to figure out how to make the female variant of the sh!t sandwich taste a little better, beyond trying to introduce anti sexual harassment/sexual assault laws that powerful people are just going to circumvent anyways to their own ends.

In closing, life sucks for most of us regardless of what we are sporting down below, and if a group of women with a slew of wealth and power have taken this long to make a difference, how much of a drop in the pot is your partners decision to stop watching porn, and what are you going to do to help make my sh!t sandwich taste a little better in return? There's a lot of unnecessary back and forth on both sides for men and women, we each just want to feel like we are being heard and have an equal stake in this promised land of equality. It's difficult to achieve equality when there are so many individual scales left unbalanced in favor of one gender or the other and the vast majority don't seem to give a crap if men get a bad deal in certain areas. After all, it's just some long overdue "justice" that the current generation of men should have to make up for the sins of past generations of men...right?

NWaltRed?

 

[AfraidAndUnfulfilled]

And then I think of my own abuse and sexual assaults.  Bleah!!!!!!  And yet no one realizes that it is our culture that causes this.  The valuation of sexuality above all else.  We read of all the recent pedophile raids, (police, Drs., detectives, teachers, ministers) the men in Hollywood, politicians and it is all men risking everything for an orgasm.  EVERYTHING risked for that!  UNREAL.

I was going to respond to your response to me detailing your experiences with sexual harassment, but it appears to be gone now, so I'll just respond to this because it seems to be the same point. First of all, sorry about your experiences, I have few myself but the list isn't nearly as long because I don't have to deal with sexual harassment/assault nearly as often as I'm a man.
I've always had difficulty understanding the arguments that sexual harassment is culturally encouraged, if anything it seems to be discouraged by law? Powerful people of either gender can of course work around the laws for a time, but many are eventually severely punished. Weinstein is basically out of a job and will be lucky to not end up in prison (again powerful people can often get out of going to prison). Average Joes however are often punished far more severely, particularly in modern times. If I were to do something like you describe (something along the lines of dropping trow in the office), I'd be out of a job and potentially facing jail time.

I don't believe it is cultural so much as a negative trait of human nature that happens to be more common among men. There are of course negative traits among both genders but it overwhelmingly men involved in sexual harassment/sexual assault. Certainly we can watch some rather horrible porn without legal repercussions, but the social repercussions are very real. We tend to keep our porn viewing habits a secret, because we would be socially ostracized otherwise. Of course it's a fine line between socially acceptable behavior and blissful ignorance, most of us would have liked to believe that porn is all consenting adults and that no one is ever harmed. We know that isn't true, but it isn't so much a culture of men enjoying the prospect of using unenthusiastic women as fap material so much as powerful people pulling the strings and encouraging blissful ignorance among the majority of men and women.

In short, we have laws to try and prevent the creation of unethical porn (they don't stop powerful people), we have laws to prevent harassment/assault in the workplace (they don't stop powerful people), what more can we do? If we identify the problem as cultured behavior, when it doesn't fit the profile, won't we arrive at an ineffective solution? I don't think "teaching men not to rape" will be nearly as effective as "ensuring powerful men and women are equally as susceptible to existing laws that strongly discourage rape". Even then there will always be people who will do whatever they please regardless of consequences, but that's hardly a culture. The only thing that we are trying to culturalize is sex positivity, and many of us believed that porn was a part of that, if the majority of men knew otherwise they wouldn't be supporting the porn industry, hardly a culture of men who want to see women suffer.

One aspect of the Wienstein debacle that I've found interesting is the fact that he was not directly in a position of authority over these women. There's no doubt that he held power over them, but he wasn't directly writing their checks when he offered them "the deal". I think this brings up an interesting question of where we should draw the line on what is an acceptable form of exchange and what isn't. I'm not convinced that Weinstein didn't have any mal intentions toward these women, I'm not convinced that he was innocently offering his help in an honest exchange for a sexual relationship, but what if he was? Would it still be deplorable if he had simply offered to "mentor" these women in exchange for a sexual relationship, no strings attached? If his intentions were as simple as offering them a deal in exchange for sex, and he had no intentions of negatively impacting their career if they refused, would it be such a bad deal? What if instead of sex the actresses paid money for his help, does it change the dynamic at all if sex isn't involved? Where do we draw the line between sexual harassment vs "I have something you want and you have something I want", a fair exchange of resources?

 

[HumbleRich]

Afraidandunfulfilled, go the F away.  It is not the job of these women to explain to you how F'ed up what you just wrote is.  In AA we would tell you to leave and do your Step four work.  Step four is where you look at your resentments, fears, but also where you have harmed others.  So, go away and do your Step 4 work.  You are sick f%?&.