Bringing it around full circle

[Leonidas]

It's frankly kind of annoying to me that my feelings of self-worth have become so entangled with the external feedback I receive, but that's how toxic shame works. It comes from the underlying belief that we are unlovable.  Although I would argue that there is nothing helpful about this belief or the thoughts and feelings it produces, everything can be challenged. I don't have to listen to any of it and I often choose not to. Bottom line is that I need to continually remind myself where it's all coming from and resolve to let it go. Holding on to these messages of self-hate is not an option. They are the fuel for this addiction.

There's a piercing quality to this introspection, I find.  Like punching through an enclosing balloon, one is finally able to see the beautiful blue sky... I also believe that lack of self-love is a reason (and a strong one) for why we may seek to soothe negative emotions with certain fixations.  Actually I've come to see fixations as pretty much interchangeable: one day it's drinking, the next it is gaming, then it is porn and finally it's binge-eating on junk food.  So like you said, the messages of self-hate can be fuel for the PMO addiction, but I would go even further: it can be the basis for it.

I am also at a loss to understand how one can actually let go... is it something that we 'resolve' to do or is more like something akin to 'no longer caring so much about it'?  When I think of letting go, I get a mental picture of a hand that casually relaxes its hold on an object, much less of a jerky stretch of the palm open.  The first image lets go without a care, the second forces the letting go.  I'm leaning towards the first... but then maybe I'm just rambling nonsense!

 

[workinprogressUK]

I also believe that lack of self-love is a reason (and a strong one) for why we may seek to soothe negative emotions with certain fixations.  Actually I've come to see fixations as pretty much interchangeable: one day it's drinking, the next it is gaming, then it is porn and finally it's binge-eating on junk food.  So like you said, the messages of self-hate can be fuel for the PMO addiction, but I would go even further: it can be the basis for it.

I think you're absolutely right. My S & P addictions were caused, in large part, by adolescent self-loathing and an inability to see myself as in any way deserving of love or affection. It's been a self-soothing mechanism for unresolved issues ever since. I think that's very common. And I agree, too, that the fixations are very interchangeable. Have you ever been in a 12-step group? An SA or SAA or similar? So many of the attendees in the group I joined were either concurrently members of an AA, GA or NA group, or had previously been members and got hooked on P as soon as they thought they'd got the problem drinking or cocaine habit behind them. Focusing on the "drug" we use to take away the pain....? Less important in the long term than focusing on healing the pain.

 

[LetItGoAlready]

Thanks for your comments, everyone! Much appreciated and lots to think about here. If I hadn't been crazy busy at work this week, I would have responded a lot sooner. Anyway...

Joel -

I'm sure there must be a way to take some joy in gratitude for your life and that you've got a good streak. But that's the way when reading another thread. I myself suffer with pretty much the same problem. I guess giving meaning and purpose to the pain (ie a crap mood) makes it okay?? maybe?

You are right about giving meaning and purpose to the pain and having more gratitude. It seems so simple, but I often forget to look for the positives - one of those being that this is a process and I'm working through the process as best I can. Not avoiding it. Not running away from it. Just getting through it day by day.

And well done on the ogling. Yes, have a medal! These are the little battles we need to win, and it ain't easy after what we've been through. Collect enough of these wins and you'll really be getting somewhere.

I probably won't be ordering myself a custom "Not a Complete Middle-Aged Creep" medal for advancements in ogling anytime soon ;D, but I appreciate the underlying message: take pride in your achievements, however small they seem. It's a good reminder that I need to celebrate the small wins as well as the bigger ones. I often forget to do that, too. Thanks!


Jixu -

Nice display of determination and commitment and keeping the big picture in view.  Moods can unexplainably come and go, that is for sure; however, your mission is based on a reasoned, well-thought out macro plan, not on the emotional micro moment at hand. Good job!

 

Thanks for the encouragement on keeping the bigger picture in view. This makes me think of something UKGuy brought up in one of his posts awhile back that had always kind of bothered me, too: the idea of learning to love withdrawals. For the longest time I thought this was a notion put forth by some guy (the quote actually came from a poster named "William") with a penchant for masochism, but I think I finally get it now. As I was laying in bed the other night, gripped with anxiety and unable to sleep, I thought to myself "This is good. It feels like I'm going through hell, but at least I'm going somewhere." It helped me to see the macro view you're talking about vs. getting caught up in the moment. 


Leo -

I also believe that lack of self-love is a reason (and a strong one) for why we may seek to soothe negative emotions with certain fixations.  Actually I've come to see fixations as pretty much interchangeable: one day it's drinking, the next it is gaming, then it is porn and finally it's binge-eating on junk food.  So like you said, the messages of self-hate can be fuel for the PMO addiction, but I would go even further: it can be the basis for it.

Pretty sure those feelings of unlovable-ness go way back and are buried deep in our psyches. One theory that I'm fond of is that addicts are trying to achieve a steady state of being that goes back to early childhood, when the intense emotional events they experienced at that time, both good and bad, went straight into their subconscious minds and imprinted on their new neural circuitry. They turn to compulsive behaviors later in life to try and recreate those early emotional experiences. For anyone who's ever delved into their early childhood while in therapy, it's easy to see how a trauma or negative experience they had at a young age could very well have set the stage for compulsive/addictive behavior further down the road. So, that becomes the basis for the addiction, but, per the theory, it is also the steady state they are trying to achieve through their addictive behavior. Interesting, huh?

I am also at a loss to understand how one can actually let go... is it something that we 'resolve' to do or is more like something akin to 'no longer caring so much about it'?

I don't know if it's possible to let go of a deeply-held false belief completely. But you can let go of the thoughts that stem from that belief if you challenge them enough and decide that they're not worth thinking about. It takes work, though. And I'm not always successful at it, either. Some days a thought just latches on and I can't shake it. I guess the good news is that I don't seem to get bogged down as much with those thoughts anymore, so maybe the work is paying off. Who knows.


WIP -

I think you're absolutely right. My S & P addictions were caused, in large part, by adolescent self-loathing and an inability to see myself as in any way deserving of love or affection.

Sounds like a familiar theme for our group. And I'm right there with you on interchangeable fixations. I've got a few of those myself. When I let them, they can quickly fill the void that P leaves behind.

 

[LetItGoAlready]

Day 21. I have a few things to report since my last check-in, so I'll get right to it. When I was watching a favorite show on Netflix last night, one that is about as G-rated as a show can get, an attractive female character appeared in a type of blouse that seems to be all the rage these days. The type that we, as men, must be mature enough to handle because we really shouldn't be looking there anyway, right? I think you know the type that I'm talking about. Had I had even a lick of common sense, I would have fast forwarded through the scene but I didn?t and it triggered me a little. I will definitely do that next time I find myself in that situation.

Later that night, I had a pretty vivid sexual dream. While I was in the dream, I stopped in the middle of whatever I was doing and was overcome with remorse because I thought I had just ended my streak. It was a huge relief for me when I woke up and realized it was all in my head. I'm not sure if I should take this as a sign that I'm finally making inroads at a subconscious level or if my brain was just processing what I saw on the show earlier. Whatever its meaning, the dream was a little unsettling.

Finally, when I was at the grocery store today, I noticed that I was a little more lax with my ogling. Some might see that as a minor concern, but for me, it can be a pretty reliable indicator that I'm sliding towards relapse, so I need to stay on top of it.

I think that's all I have to report for now. Be well, everyone.

 

[Joel]

3 weeks! great work! and great self awareness and accountability there, bud. Admitting to every little moment where your small mind turned up is very powerful

 

[LetItGoAlready]

3 weeks! great work! and great self awareness and accountability there, bud. Admitting to every little moment where your small mind turned up is very powerful

Thanks Joel. Your support means a lot to me. These moments are sometimes a little tedious to put into words, but once they're on the page, they can haunt me no more!

It's Day 23. Yesterday went better than expected. I had to run some errands, and I knew if I went into that situation unprepared, I might allow my eyes to wander even more than the day before, maybe even get seriously triggered. I certainly didn't want that. So, I made sure to have a little chat with myself and laid down some ground rules before I even got out of the car. And you know what? It worked! I hardly shot a glance at anyone. Sure, there was a moment or two where, if I'm being honest, I didn't behave like a perfect gentleman. But I did a hell of a lot better than I did the time before, and I'm pretty happy about that. I think the thing I feel best about, though, is that I'm not just another broken record saying, "well, I did the same damn thing I always do and, big surprise, I fucked up again!" This time I did something different and got better results.

Later that day, I spent some alone time with my wife, which is another situation that I have to be careful with because I succumbed to the chaser effect right after our last... er, canoodling session. This time, though, I was prepared for it. And just like with my ogling experience, it went better than expected. Feeling pretty good about that, too.

I think I'll end my report there, friends. Be well!

 

[Leonidas]

It's Day 23. Yesterday went better than expected. I had to run some errands, and I knew if I went into that situation unprepared, I might allow my eyes to wander even more than the day before, maybe even get seriously triggered. I certainly didn't want that. So, I made sure to have a little chat with myself and laid down some ground rules before I even got out of the car. And you know what? It worked! I hardly shot a glance at anyone. Sure, there was a moment or two where, if I'm being honest, I didn't behave like a perfect gentleman. But I did a hell of a lot better than I did the time before, and I'm pretty happy about that. I think the thing I feel best about, though, is that I'm not just another broken record saying, "well, I did the same damn thing I always do and, big surprise, I fucked up again!" This time I did something different and got better results.

Just highlighted the part of your post that grabbed my attention.  If I may, why would you want that?  Is it realistic to think that you could indefinitely avoid eye contact with women?  There was a post by a guy on another member's journal where he somewhat blamed women for wearing titillating apparel in the gym, which I can understand from the perspective of recovery.  But putting blame on women or decrying the situation as 'annoying' won't solve it.  Then there is the possibility of leaving the gym... similar to that idea of averting eye contact.  But that means that we are allowing external influences to carry decision-making.  Or a compromise: accept the situation for what it is regardless of what women may inspire, from the shape of their bodies to the way they dress, at the end of the day they are people.  That we have an issue with porn and are primed to objectify women, the onus is on us - not on them - to change the perspective.

 

[TheNorman]

Couldn't say it any better than what Leo just said. Seeing people is unavoidable. It's also important to feel good about the progress you have made and the more you can see people without ogling or objectifying them the better you will get at it. Part of all of this is giving your brain space away from porn and the by-products like ogling but you also need to live your life. It's not easy to find that balance but you sound like you're getting there.

 

[LetItGoAlready]

If I may, why would you want that?  Is it realistic to think that you could indefinitely avoid eye contact with women?  There was a post by a guy on another member's journal where he somewhat blamed women for wearing titillating apparel in the gym, which I can understand from the perspective of recovery.  But putting blame on women or decrying the situation as 'annoying' won't solve it.  Then there is the possibility of leaving the gym... similar to that idea of averting eye contact.  But that means that we are allowing external influences to carry decision-making.  Or a compromise: accept the situation for what it is regardless of what women may inspire, from the shape of their bodies to the way they dress, at the end of the day they are people.  That we have an issue with porn and are primed to objectify women, the onus is on us - not on them - to change the perspective.

Hi Leo- I appreciate your comments, and I believe they were given in the spirit of helpfulness, but I'm not sure I quite follow you here. So, are you saying that because I'm trying not to look at women's bodies when I'm out running errands (I'm not avoiding eye contact; that's never been a trigger for me personally), I'm somehow putting the blame on them for that or decrying the situation as annoying? Because I read through my post several times, and I'm sorry, I just don't see where I said that. Or even implied it. 

You started with a question, though, and I want to respond to that: Why would I not want to glance at anyone, specifically at women I find attractive, when I'm out in public? Probably for the same reason that you don't want to glance at porn. I mean, at the end of the day those women you're looking at on your screen are people, right? And the onus is on you, not them, to change your perspective on how you see them. So, why not compromise and decide it's okay to look at them because it is what it is and they're people just like you and me?

My guess is that you'd probably say that you've drawn a hard line around that behavior because you recognize that it's unhealthy for you. The same way that I'm drawing a hard line around the behavior of objectifying women in public because I recognize that it?s unhealthy for me.

If you have reached a point in your journey where objectifying women is no longer an issue for you in public, that's really awesome and I applaud you for that. Cause it's not like that for me. Not yet, anyway.

 

[Leonidas]

I'm sorry for posting what I see in hindsight as a confusing message.  I did not mean to cause you irritation.  I think our misunderstanding might stem from our interpretation of 'glancing'.  As I see it, it really is just eye contact and taking in the whole body image of the person... and therefore thought it would be insane to avoid this form of interaction in order to cope with triggers (I interpreted it as self-imposed disconnection from others).  Now I understand that you meant it as "avoiding the focus on body parts".  And I guess that solves our dilemma, as in light of this context avoiding that behavior seems sound enough to me.  And what I meant by 'blame' was just a reference to that other member's feelings with regards to women wearing sexy outfits at the gym, so never mind that analogy it no longer applies to this case!

Personally though, I see no wrong in noticing a woman's generous chest or well-toned legs; in fact it's impossible to ignore such cues.  Women also run similar radars when they look at men (or other women!).  But I can see how lingering stares for longer than what is necessary can become a vulnerability.  So avoidance sounds like an answer to this.  I also noticed that a small voice warned you of potential pitfalls with this strategy... so the challenge is to balance out this strategy whilst encouraging social connection (hopefully, one should not come at the detriment of the other).

You posed an interesting challenge with regards to how viewing porn can be held as objectifying the actors/participants.  To be honest, I don't know the answer to that.  You may have a point, perhaps this could be the starting point of developing a bad habit.  Porn-viewing to me was mostly a self-harming ritual than it was about the exploitation of others.  But it has the potential to turn exploitative when the user identifies with the values promoted by porn and starts enacting them in his life.  So for instance, he might choose a woman and turn her into his new target of lust, leading her on through deception with nary a thought for what she might otherwise offer by way of character, common goals and activities... ultimately resulting in pain and suffering.  Now if I decide to indulge/relapse to porn, I don't think I am necessarily objectifying women (yet).  I still retain the power to decide if I allow its values to replace my own.  I believe most of us are fighting off this habit precisely because we've come to the realization that our personal values serve us better.

 

[LetItGoAlready]

I'm sorry for posting what I see in hindsight as a confusing message.  I did not mean to cause you irritation.  I think our misunderstanding might stem from our interpretation of 'glancing'.

No worries, Leo. I think this was just a simple misunderstanding. My reaction was not proportional to the statement I took issue with. So, that's on me.

Personally though, I see no wrong in noticing a woman's generous chest or well-toned legs; in fact it's impossible to ignore such cues.  Women also run similar radars when they look at men (or other women!).  But I can see how lingering stares for longer than what is necessary can become a vulnerability.  So avoidance sounds like an answer to this.

I agree that it's nearly impossible to ignore something we are hard-wired to notice. I'm not in any way unique in this regard, but my peripheral vision has always been pretty amazing at picking out the physical details of the people around me. So, even when I'm not looking, I'm still kind of looking. I guess the trick is to know the difference between a healthy amount of looking and an unhealthy amount of staring. It's still a work in progress for me, but for the time being, I've decided to err on the side of caution.

I also noticed that a small voice warned you of potential pitfalls with this strategy... so the challenge is to balance out this strategy whilst encouraging social connection (hopefully, one should not come at the detriment of the other).

It doesn't really feel like I'm sacrificing social connection with this strategy in a normal out and about-type situation because I normally wouldn't interact with any of the women that I see in public anyway. Where it gets tricky is when I'm working with or in an otherwise social situation with women I find attractive and need to keep my eyes where they're supposed to be vs. sneakily scouting the terrain. This normally doesn't interfere with socializing, but it doesn't help either, and I sometimes wish I could turn that stupid switch off in my brain.

Now if I decide to indulge/relapse to porn, I don't think I am necessarily objectifying women (yet).  I still retain the power to decide if I allow its values to replace my own.

You've given me something to think about here. I expect there would be arguments on either side about how dehumanizing porn is and what the act of viewing porn says about a viewer's value system, but that's an argument I would probably be wise to avoid. Take care.

 

[LetItGoAlready]

Day 30. Today I took a moment to look back at my records from 2014, when I first started documenting this journey. I made it to exactly 1 month PMO-free before giving into M. I had a hard time regaining stability from that point forward and couldn't go more than a few days without M'ing. On the flip side, though, I did somehow manage to make it to 63 days without once looking at P, a record I have not been able to beat since.

There's no question in mind about my motivation level at that time; it was super high! But what I lacked was a commitment to abide by a simple set of rules and the determination to keep trying. Six+ years later, my motivation level is...well, stable, perhaps because I have more realistic expectations of myself. And my commitment to follow my own rules seems to be higher now than it was then. But the biggest and most important shift in my recovery has been my determination to stick with this program - something I guess I just didn't have back when I first started this journey.

To all of you out there struggling, don't give up. Stick with the program and keep trying. I can't say that things get dramatically better right away, but after awhile they do start to feel steadier, which for the moment feels like victory to me.

Be well, everyone.

 

[Joel]

Well done on the milestone, Liga! I didn't realise you'd been in the game as long as I have ...and I read a couple of your early posts. Realising how many years this back and forth has been happening can be quite a motivation. I read a Mark Manson essay on giving up smoking recently. It wasn't easy, but the moment he decided he had to see through quitting was when he realised he'd been a smoker for half his life. Onward!

 

[peter1717]

30 Days is a great milestone.
The next 30 is attainable because you made 30 already!
You have proven to yourself that you can do it!

 

[LetItGoAlready]

Day 36. I haven't posted in my journal in awhile, and I feel kind of bad about that. On the one hand, I suppose the reason for not posting as much is that I haven't had any reportable behaviors, but on the other, I should really be posting here whether I have something to report or not. So, from now on, I'm going to make more of an effort to post at least every few days instead of letting almost a full week slip by like I did last week.

I actually forgot to report one of the more significant moments I?ve had since I started my latest reboot ? a conversation I had with my wife a few weeks ago about my PA and recovery. It followed a pretty heated discussion we'd had the day before that was about something else but morphed into a discussion of my past transgressions with P (she caught me looking at it a few times 5+ years ago). When she brought up the P incidents again, I hung my head in shame knowing how much hurt I had caused her. After things cooled down between us again, I told her that I still struggled with sexually compulsive behavior and that I was keeping a recovery journal and engaging with fellow strugglers in the RN community. This isn?t the first time I?ve talked to her about my recovery from PA, by the way, but it?s the most detailed update I?ve given her in awhile.

She seemed to understand what I was doing on RN and why I was doing it, but she has made it very clear to me in the past that she doesn't want to take an active role in my recovery. What she has said is that she doesn't want to be in a co-dependent relationship where she is managing my behavior and taking on my burdens as her own, and I fully understand and respect that. At the end of the day, this is my responsibility and mine alone.

The good news is that the bond between my wife and I has never been stronger. We love one another and have found a way to move on together despite my betrayal of our marriage with P.

Anyway, I apologize for the long post. My only reportable behavior of late is one I partook in yesterday while watching a movie with my wife. An attractive female character was wearing a revealing outfit, and I scrolled my eyes downward a bit to take in more of her body. I'm not going to minimize the behavior because I recognize that it was driven by lust, not curiosity. But it didn't trigger me, so that's good.

Other than that, things have been going pretty well. I've been really busy at work and have been using what little time I have left outside of work and my other responsibilities to drop in and comment on other peoples' journals, exercise, and go on hikes with my family.

Have a good week and stay strong, everyone.

 

[Joel]

I haven't had any reportable behaviors

That's great, Liga! I say that because I know you really report any kind of gateway behaviour.

She seemed to understand what I was doing on RN and why I was doing it, but she has made it very clear to me in the past that she doesn't want to take an active role in my recovery. What she has said is that she doesn't want to be in a co-dependent relationship where she is managing my behavior and taking on my burdens as her own, and I fully understand and respect that. At the end of the day, this is my responsibility and mine alone.

She sounds like a wise gal. That's what all the literature recommends.

drop in and comment on other peoples' journals, exercise, and go on hikes with my family.

Very healthy stuff! I'm sure everyone appreciates your support - it always means a lot when people reach out here. Have a great weeks yourself, my friend!

 

[LetItGoAlready]

Very healthy stuff! I'm sure everyone appreciates your support - it always means a lot when people reach out here. Have a great weeks yourself, my friend!

Joel -Likewise. I appreciate your support and your response to the long post I wrote the other day!

It's Day 38 today. While I was out shopping yesterday, I caught myself stealing more than a passing glance at my fellow shoppers and to be honest it triggered me a little. Later that evening, while I was on my PC, I experienced some urges. I?m happy to report that I was able to ignore the urges and had enough sense to walk away from the computer and go to bed.

This is a reminder to me not to get complacent and think that I can't fall down a rabbit hole again. Per my plan, I'm coming here to daylight the incident; however, beyond following through on my recovery plan, I also need to work on a plan to cultivate the life I want to live outside of my recovery. Today I'm going to take a first step toward doing that by planning out some fun things to do in the weeks ahead that I can look forward to.

Be well, everyone.

 

[LetItGoAlready]

Day 40. I'm feeling okay today, but work is starting to stress me out. I worry about not having an outlet for this anxious energy. Exercise alone isn't cutting it. I need to start putting fun activities on the calendar and really commit to doing them. 

That's about all I can think of at this late hour. Peace out, brothers.

 

[TheNorman]

Congrats on 40 LIGA! I look forward to reading about the fun activities you find!

 

[Joel]

Great stuff, Liga. Hardcore exercise followed by hardcore relaxation can be good for that. Let's hear some of those fun ideas you come up with!