Objectifying Women

[Wanttobebetter]

First let me thank the women who have joined this conversation. I think I speak for many guys when I say we do not have a clue what is going on with looking at women.  Honestly, I have always been really confused about the cleavage thing. Breasts are sensual in the whole female/male thing, yet what's a man to do when he sees a wonderful cleavage intentionally on display. That always had me muttering to myself, "Well damn, what am I supposed to do?"  So I am talking to a woman in a totally business setting. We are standing face to face three feet apart. That morning she chose to wear a blouse which reveals a lot of cleavage. How do I stare her in the eye while we talk and not occasionally look down? Then, as Viper said there are those amazingly tight stretch jeans that accentuate the butt! A woman walks by or is standing in front of me at the post office in a pair of those remarkable garments and I have to go into a mind warp not to leer at the masterpiece. What the heck? 
So anyhow, I was an objectifier. I say was because I'm making real progress with getting a perspective to handle that one. I had it bad for decades and thought I was alone and crazy. That is getting better now simply by recognizing it. Thanks too to Gracie for her Porn Doc post this morning.

But I echo the other gents in this conversation when I ask, if a guy is looking for normal or acceptable behavior, what do women think that is? I'm sincere about that question.  If a woman goes out for the day or to work and is dressed nicely she expects men to treat her nicely and respectfully.
And except for the leering morons like I was (yes...was!) most men will treat her that way.

Then there is an ever increasing percentage of women who leave home dressed as sensually and sexually as they can.  I know that is a societal thing and I do not criticize them individually here.

One analogy if I might, if a guy with a really great dick were to go out in a pair of jeans that sculpted him in a "look at this!" way, would he not be considered to be showing off or attracting attention? Would women divert their eyes?

So women, your help and advice and input here is really valuable! The guys here are listening.

Thanks to all taking part!!!

 

[SO Reboot Partner]

I have been skeeved on more than one occasion by the daydreaming negotiator. Don't think this is unique to you or that it can be always unseen by the lady sitting across the table.

So I have to ask...
what does that make you think of the man who's gawking or clearly making his eyes wander down to your cleavage?
I got to know what goes through your mind. I'm definitely guilty of objectifying women but I've been reducing the problem.
My struggle with that is well documented within the confines of this forum. But I'd like to hear more thoughts on this from the ladies.

Objectification is just a form of valuation. The gawker is evaluating the worth of the object, sometimes me, sometimes someone else.

When I have been the object of the creep, I've reacted in different ways. I was stalked in college. I won't give big details here, but I made myself as unappealing as possible to throw him off. I know other ladies that did this. Sometime later, my now husband was mildly creeping on me and I checked him out three ways to Sunday before deciding he was alright. I've been creeped as a middle-aged person at work and got a nice bonus because creepy dysfunction can't do math.

It was only a few years ago I had a old man rubbing himself up against me while standing in line to pay for gas. I'm sure he was depending on my silence or horror. Boy, he did look surprised! Also, yes there were cameras.

I have a daughter. She is beautiful. I teach her to see the creep. I teach her to value herself and not by societal norms.

What I think when I experience the creep is different based on the situation. Of course I am in that wondrous time of life when I maybe don't meet all the norms, so maybe I can relax some.

 

[Viper]

I agree with WTBB, this is all very useful input ladies.

 

[Wanttobebetter]

As always, great stuff SORP. I thought you said you were taking the week off! Thanks for your reply. Your daughter is in good hands, Mom.

 

[SO Reboot Partner]

As always, great stuff SORP. I thought you said you were taking the week off! Thanks for your reply. Your daughter is in good hands, Mom.

Oh, I just had to look around. This is a great topic and needs discussion. I did want to note that I am average in looks - that is to say I don't think I'm anything extraordinary. I also don't dress provocatively. Even if I did, I don't ask for it.

I did want to mention that in this day and age it isn't just lookie-loos. Ogglers will take pictures to look over later. I've taught my kids to avoid having their pictures taken by others without their permission. On a skating trip this winter, there was a man taking cell phone photos of the 11-13 yr old girls at the rink. He was not a parent and was "discovered" because kiddos was all "don't take my picture". He had asked them to pose "falling down".

(I've had a great weekend - hope everyone else had the same.)

 

[Tclay]

Good discussion.... I can't think of another venue where a guy could get an honest female perspective on this particular subject.  I actually had a conversation regarding what she felt was appropriate in regard to receiving the gaze... Pretty consistent with what was communicated here.

 

[LTE]

I've always found it interesting that women could dress revealingly and be annoyed by someone looking but my feelings have changed considerably over the last 18 months or so. I now see that what might seem provocative to me could innocent of such motive. Men may project their interpretation because we tend to be the sexual aggressors of the species.

 

[Gracie]

I appreciate all of you saying we women have helped.  The ogling, when it occurs when we are around our husbands is really difficult.  It takes your 2 dimensional world and makes it 3 dimensional.  You are then looking at real women, and while we are there.  It really leaves us reeling at times.  So kudos to you for changing!

 

[Wanttobebetter]

I hope you understood my rant yesterday. It was borne out of frustration and a desire to learn the truth and be better. I was not pointing a finger at women or trying to deflect blame.
SO Reboot Partner said, "Objectivation is just a form of valuation." That is a definition and a revelation that I will carry with me every day as I head out into the world.
Like Chicken, I too notice other men ogling women and it looks creepy to me too! Makes me feel like a total creepy asshole after all my decades at it.
LTE's comment, "I've always found it interesting that women..."  But now LTE is getting better and so can I.
Gracie said, "I appreciate all of you saying we women have helped." That, Gracie, is so beautiful it nearly brings me to tears. It is healing and a gift from you.
ThenTclay made the comment, " I can't think of another venue..." Exactly.
In three weeks I have gone from being a total mess to feeling blessed. I have far to go but I am so damn lucky I found this place and all of you. Everybody take care of yourselves. When you do that you're also taking care of the rest of us!

 

[chicken]

Hear hear!

 

[jkkk]

Everyone,

This thread is astonishing. It's so spot on for me, I'm lost for words.

Shopping malls - definitely the worst places for me I think that this is one of the reasons why I really never really liked going to clubs - it's just all these women that I would abuse in my mind, without ever finding confidence and balls to approach any of them and just get to know them.

As anyone could plainly see from my journal, objectifying is one of my main problems. I sometimes think that is one of the most important parts of my reboot. As important as P. I mean, I'm rebooting from objectifying.

And it hit me, no later than yesterday, that my wife must have noticed that I stare at women. She must have. And I think that it might make her feel bad about herself... I remember that on a few occasions, she asked me what would I say if she augmented her breasts. And I didn't say no...

But that's just no the issue. She might put herself DDs, I'd still be looking at other women. Because objectifying is wired to novelty cravings, and novelty cravings (hunting) is just pure dopamine.

If any guys have any techniques that you can share on how to deall with it, please do. What works for you? I now have the "Porn Doc" answers, so I know where to start (I started already the two-second rule, just without two seconds, now I'll stick to those two seconds), but any tips will be appreciated.

And yes, the feminine input - priceless.

 

[LTE]

Everyone,

This thread is astonishing. It's so spot on for me, I'm lost for words.

Shopping malls - definitely the worst places for me I think that this is one of the reasons why I really never really liked going to clubs - it's just all these women that I would abuse in my mind, without ever finding confidence and balls to approach any of them and just get to know them.

As anyone could plainly see from my journal, objectifying is one of my main problems. I sometimes think that is one of the most important parts of my reboot. As important as P. I mean, I'm rebooting from objectifying.

And it hit me, no later than yesterday, that my wife must have noticed that I stare at women. She must have. And I think that it might make her feel bad about herself... I remember that on a few occasions, she asked me what would I say if she augmented her breasts. And I didn't say no...

But that's just no the issue. She might put herself DDs, I'd still be looking at other women. Because objectifying is wired to novelty cravings, and novelty cravings (hunting) is just pure dopamine.

If any guys have any techniques that you can share on how to deall with it, please do. What works for you? I now have the "Porn Doc" answers, so I know where to start (I started already the two-second rule, just without two seconds, now I'll stick to those two seconds), but any tips will be appreciated.

And yes, the feminine input - priceless.

I recommend the book Breaking the Cycle by George Collins. It will help you to develop strategies that keep you from objectifying. It has worked wonders for me, but it did take time.

 

[Wanttobebetter]

jkkk...I certainly do not have LTE's length of time fighting the good fight. You should listen to any advice LTE offers. I have since I came on board here.
But I will say this from me and keep  in mind I fully acknowledge I'm not fixed yet. My first step was when I became aware that ogling and objectification were neither normal nor acceptable. All those years I was an idiot.
Second step was to start recognizing it every time I do it. When I do, then I immediately look away and tell myself how awful that behavior is. I consciously say that to myself. That has had a positive effect for me. I still spot the the appearance of the stimuli, but I recognize what's happening right away, look away and tell myself I must stop that and I'm an asshole for doing it.
That process seems to be working for me. The second the behavior begins, I spot it, look away, tell myself it is wrong and to stop it.
But I have since May 1. LTE has over 500 days. I ordered the book he recommended about a week ago! Consider doing the same!

 

[LTE]

jkkk...I certainly do not have LTE's length of time fighting the good fight. You should listen to any advice LTE offers. I have since I came on board here.
But I will say this from me and keep  in mind I fully acknowledge I'm not fixed yet. My first step was when I became aware that ogling and objectification were neither normal nor acceptable. All those years I was an idiot.
Second step was to start recognizing it every time I do it. When I do, then I immediately look away and tell myself how awful that behavior is. I consciously say that to myself. That has had a positive effect for me. I still spot the the appearance of the stimuli, but I recognize what's happening right away, look away and tell myself I must stop that and I'm an asshole for doing it.
That process seems to be working for me. The second the behavior begins, I spot it, look away, tell myself it is wrong and to stop it.
But I have since May 1. LTE has over 500 days. I ordered the book he recommended about a week ago! Consider doing the same!

Thanks for the kind words.

Recognizing ogling and objectifying is a key, IMO. It was just normal behavior for me. Nowadays I see it differently and I can see the person and not just interesting bits of anatomy.

 

[Wanttobebetter]

Exactly, LTE, and that's what I'm working on and seeing glimmers of success even after just 3 weeks. I can focus better on conversations much better already.
I follow your advice all over the forum. You have been a tremendous source of reality for me.
Thanks

 

[LTE]

Exactly, LTE, and that's what I'm working on and seeing glimmers of success even after just 3 weeks. I can focus better on conversations much better already.
I follow your advice all over the forum. You have been a tremendous source of reality for me.
Thanks

Thanks again, I'm flattered.

You will see improvement as time passes. There's the addictive element, then, if you have underlying issues they will become accessible once the addiction is out of the way. Even at 500+ days I see improvement as time passes.

 

[chicken]

It is amazing how PMO has changed my out look towards women...I grew up in a normal family with a sister and always saw women for what they really are, equal but different.  After years of porn use, I guess my views changed without my thinking about it or really realizing it until I became aware of my addiction.  PMO has led me to objectify women and see any attractive woman as a potential lust object, not for the person they really are.  What a horrible transformation.  This addiction goes much deeper then I first realized.  Now I am having to rewire my brain from the dopamine and other chemicals as well as change my habits and attitudes towards the female gender.  I attribute a lot to the constant novelty aspect of this addiction,  I had become a scanner of crowds, without even realizing I was doing it, I could pick out an woman who is attractive or revealingly attired quick as a wink.  I am on my way to stopping this ridiculous behavior.  There is nobody who I would rather have by my side then the woman I live with, so why continue to "hunt".

 

[Viper]

If any guys have any techniques that you can share on how to deall with it, please do. What works for you? I now have the "Porn Doc" answers, so I know where to start (I started already the two-second rule, just without two seconds, now I'll stick to those two seconds), but any tips will be appreciated.

And yes, the feminine input - priceless.

Here is an exercise you should try because it's good that you admit you have a problem. I'm in the same
boat so hear me out;
The next time you're at the mall and please make sure you have a constructive reason to go and when
you're there, focus on the men. Take in their mannerisms and behavior. Forget about the ladies and
just notice men. When I say notice, I'm not suggesting starring at their crotch. I want you to observe
other oglers in this target rich environment. You will see how bad they look and how awful it is.
Essentially, what you see is yourself in action and you will be disgusted to think that you look just
as awful when you do it yourself.
You will learn that other men out there do what you do. The purpose of this is to be inspired to behave
differently.
I remember standing in line at Chipotle the other night. This dude in front me kept leering at this PYT
at the end of the line. It was so obvious because he had to turn around to do it. His body language
pretty much said it all. Now if you get a quick glance when she walked in, that's fine, quick glance and
back to facing in front of you. But he kept turning around and he might as well be salivating. It looks bad
and you don't want that for yourself.

 

[chicken]

Very good advice...I have noticed other men oogling and it what I want to look like for sure. 

 

[LTE]

If any guys have any techniques that you can share on how to deall with it, please do. What works for you? I now have the "Porn Doc" answers, so I know where to start (I started already the two-second rule, just without two seconds, now I'll stick to those two seconds), but any tips will be appreciated.

And yes, the feminine input - priceless.

Here is an exercise you should try because it's good that you admit you have a problem. I'm in the same
boat so hear me out;
The next time you're at the mall and please make sure you have a constructive reason to go and when
you're there, focus on the men. Take in their mannerisms and behavior. Forget about the ladies and
just notice men. When I say notice, I'm not suggesting starring at their crotch. I want you to observe
other oglers in this target rich environment. You will see how bad they look and how awful it is.
Essentially, what you see is yourself in action and you will be disgusted to think that you look just
as awful when you do it yourself.
You will learn that other men out there do what you do. The purpose of this is to be inspired to behave
differently.
I remember standing in line at Chipotle the other night. This dude in front me kept leering at this PYT
at the end of the line. It was so obvious because he had to turn around to do it. His body language
pretty much said it all. Now if you get a quick glance when she walked in, that's fine, quick glance and
back to facing in front of you. But he kept turning around and he might as well be salivating. It looks bad
and you don't want that for yourself.

Great stuff, Viper.