Objectifying Women

[Rainiegirl]

If anyone is interested I have a video here that is about what sexual objectification does to women
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMS4VJKekW8&safe=active
and here is one that talks about why men feel so unbalanced emotionaly and how it can lead to problems like objectifying women and porn addiction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVI1Xutc_Ws
I found them interesting and they have some of the ideas that others were commenting on in this post

 

[Bibbity]

I think men at their core are 'protectors'.  This is true masculine energy.  They don't protect because they feel that women cannot protect themselves but because they want to.  It's a role they want to fulfill if we let them.  Instead we see men becoming 'hunters' of women as has been mentioned in this post.  This goes against your very nature as a man I think.  When 1 in 3 women has been violated by the time they are 18 women must begin to learn to fear men.  When a group of college men were surveyed 50% of them said they would rape a woman if no one ever found out and there were no consequences.  This sets women up for the suppression of the feminine and fear of men.  We must hide our vulnerability from men and vulnerability is the essence of femininity.  A scantily clad woman at the mall needs to be protected.  Chances are she's never had a masculine protector in her life.  Instead some men are actively seeking her out to violate her, even if it's only with their eyes.  The true masculine men are protecting her by looking away or speaking up against the leering men.  I don't think men understand what masculinity is all about.  Women have taken on the role of protector and nurturer and this is why we are so out of balance.  Men are perpetual adolescents with very few role models.  Being a man means objectifying women and eating steak.  Watching football and burping. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with women being in their masculine while at work to get things done but there has to be a time when you put the sword down and become softer (for your own sanity and vitality).  Allowing the men in our lives to step up in our homes and families.  I remember when we'd go for a hike in the woods with our first child.  I'd pack everything, make sure everything was ready, find the trail on a map and once there I'd be surveying the woods for any signs of danger and making sure my daughter and husband were safe.  My husband had no choice but to be the child here.  Now he makes sure we have food and water, he picks the trail and protects us when we walk.  This allows me to enjoy the trees and birds, talk to my kids about what they are seeing and relax. This is the feminine and masculine in balance.  Life has become so much more beautiful!  Of course different things work for different families. 

My only advice to the men in this thread would be to really explore what masculinity means to you.  What were the role models like in your life?  Did they protect women or violate them? Were you emasculated?  Were you yourself violated by a man? Critically think about media's portrayal of men and how that has shaped you.  Young boys growing up with porn and media today are especially vulnerable.  We need a few good men to stand up and become mentors for the next generation.  This is something a woman cannot do. 

 

[Wanttobebetter]

Men being mentors for young men coming up...great advice Bibbity.

 

[LTE]

I think men at their core are 'protectors'.  This is true masculine energy.  They don't protect because they feel that women cannot protect themselves but because they want to.  It's a role they want to fulfill if we let them.  Instead we see men becoming 'hunters' of women as has been mentioned in this post.  This goes against your very nature as a man I think.  When 1 in 3 women has been violated by the time they are 18 women must begin to learn to fear men.  When a group of college men were surveyed 50% of them said they would rape a woman if no one ever found out and there were no consequences.  This sets women up for the suppression of the feminine and fear of men.  We must hide our vulnerability from men and vulnerability is the essence of femininity.  A scantily clad woman at the mall needs to be protected.  Chances are she's never had a masculine protector in her life.  Instead some men are actively seeking her out to violate her, even if it's only with their eyes.  The true masculine men are protecting her by looking away or speaking up against the leering men.  I don't think men understand what masculinity is all about.  Women have taken on the role of protector and nurturer and this is why we are so out of balance.  Men are perpetual adolescents with very few role models.  Being a man means objectifying women and eating steak.  Watching football and burping. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with women being in their masculine while at work to get things done but there has to be a time when you put the sword down and become softer (for your own sanity and vitality).  Allowing the men in our lives to step up in our homes and families.  I remember when we'd go for a hike in the woods with our first child.  I'd pack everything, make sure everything was ready, find the trail on a map and once there I'd be surveying the woods for any signs of danger and making sure my daughter and husband were safe.  My husband had no choice but to be the child here.  Now he makes sure we have food and water, he picks the trail and protects us when we walk.  This allows me to enjoy the trees and birds, talk to my kids about what they are seeing and relax. This is the feminine and masculine in balance.  Life has become so much more beautiful!  Of course different things work for different families. 

My only advice to the men in this thread would be to really explore what masculinity means to you.  What were the role models like in your life?  Did they protect women or violate them? Were you emasculated?  Were you yourself violated by a man? Critically think about media's portrayal of men and how that has shaped you.  Young boys growing up with porn and media today are especially vulnerable.  We need a few good men to stand up and become mentors for the next generation.  This is something a woman cannot do.

I think that a lot of this boils down to the fact that many men think that all females they meet are potential sex partners and this places a lot of unnecessary stress on society as a whole. I just think about the females in my life that are sexually off-limits; relatives, daughters of friends, co-workers, etc, and I see these women quite wholesomely. My point being that I can see women wholesomely and still appreciate them without objectification.

 

[Bibbity]

A great read over at The Good Men Project on this subject!  The comments section is interesting.

http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/why-men-objectify-women/

 

[LarrySheets]

Hi everyone,

I am 32 days into my first reboot and things are going really well. But I'm having a harder time because I always used to (and still do to some extent) check out women. I realize now that it is something I can avoid with the right attitude. The tricky part is that I don't know what the acceptable approach is. Many times, when I am quickly glancing at a woman, they glance right back. I guess that is okay? I don't know - I'm not staring for seconds on end, just quite quickly. But it sure isn't helping me fight urges of this addiction.

I was doing great when I first started the reboot, but now that it is nice outside and women are wearing less and less, this is more difficult.

Any thoughts?

 

[Markos_Thraun]

I myself had a problem objectifyign women, especially with my ex.
I became quite obsesse and fixated on her butt, to the point where thats all sex would be about. SHe became resentful and hurt because I was taking some part of her and focusing on that for my pleasure, rather than interacting with her as a person and enjoying mutual pleasure.
Theres nothing wrong with checking out women, or men, so long as it does not become disturbing or obsessive. I noticed in the first two weeks that I would get quite frustrated when checking out girls. FOrtunately it has becoem less of a problem.

 

[Bibbity]

I don't know - I'm not staring for seconds on end, just quite quickly. But it sure isn't helping me fight urges of this addiction.

I was doing great when I first started the reboot, but now that it is nice outside and women are wearing less and less, this is more difficult.

Any thoughts?

I think noticing and looking at an attractive woman is perfectly normal.  A few seconds IMO is not uncomfortable and if you make eye contact maybe a smile would help if you feel awkward.  For me it's when guys look multiple times or just plain stare that it becomes uncomfortable and unwanted attention.  I don't mean looking a second time if she enters your field of vision, I mean actively seeking her out to look or turning around multiple times.  Notice, acknowledge and move on and stop if you start to fantasize about sex with her 

 

[chicken]

I think that there are some good rules that us men could adapt and try to follow in that last post.  How about this: 
1. No scanning or actively seeking out attractive or revealingly dressed women
2. The 2 second rule....trying to move to 1 second "catch and release"
3. No second looks, turning around etc.
4. No fantasizing about what you see
5. No mentally undressing what you have seen even if you have followed rules 2 and 3

 

[Wanttobebetter]

What a wonderful opportunity Reboot Nation is. Every encounter I have had recently with a woman, be it in conversation, business, or just a stranger in passing, now has me alert to my behavior, my thoughts, and my interaction.

Respect is what is happening now.

Each man and woman on the planet see features in others which each finds to be attractive.
Each man and woman possess certain physical features that make them attractive to others.
Certain unique features are attractive to one but not another.

Have you ever looked at a face you find beautiful or handsome and actually been able to say just exactly what it is that you find beautiful?  I've tried and find it impossible. I look and I know how I feel, but I honestly cannot identify the specifics to describe why. Try it sometime and I'd love to hear what you think. One person finds another beautiful, while a third observer does not. It's a sweet mystery.

So finally, I am seeing comments on this thread that it is a normal human condition to observe physical features in others. It is normal to observe those unique qualities we find beautiful in others, just so long as we do not linger with our eyes and we make our observation respectfully. Also it is imperative we do it in a manner that respects the one we are with while allowing the one we are with to observe other human beings as well.

Since the beginning of this topic I have hoped to hear some acknowledgment that the singling out of our observations upon others based on what we each uniquely find attractive in others is okay. At last someone (Bibbity) has said it.

If we simply behave and respect the human beings involved it is normal and okay to notice.

Just made 4 weeks. I love you all. Thank you

 

[chicken]

Bingo!  You have said it very beautifully and I could not agree more with you!  Thank you.

 

[LTE]

What a wonderful opportunity Reboot Nation is. Every encounter I have had recently with a woman, be it in conversation, business, or just a stranger in passing, now has me alert to my behavior, my thoughts, and my interaction.

Respect is what is happening now.

Each man and woman on the planet see features in others which each finds to be attractive.
Each man and woman possess certain physical features that make them attractive to others.
Certain unique features are attractive to one but not another.

Have you ever looked at a face you find beautiful or handsome and actually been able to say just exactly what it is that you find beautiful?  I've tried and find it impossible. I look and I know how I feel, but I honestly cannot identify the specifics to describe why. Try it sometime and I'd love to hear what you think. One person finds another beautiful, while a third observer does not. It's a sweet mystery.

So finally, I am seeing comments on this thread that it is a normal human condition to observe physical features in others. It is normal to observe those unique qualities we find beautiful in others, just so long as we do not linger with our eyes and we make our observation respectfully. Also it is imperative we do it in a manner that respects the one we are with while allowing the one we are with to observe other human beings as well.

Since the beginning of this topic I have hoped to hear some acknowledgment that the singling out of our observations upon others based on what we each uniquely find attractive in others is okay. At last someone (Bibbity) has said it.

If we simply behave and respect the human beings involved it is normal and okay to notice.

Just made 4 weeks. I love you all. Thank you

Lovely thoughts, my friend. 

I don't know what it is that I find attractive in a woman's face but I see it in some faces and not in others.  I can think of one friend that has a lovely smile. I love that smile and I love the mind of the person. It's not romantic or anything of the sort, but it's like a window to her psyche. When I see her offspring with the same smile I know that they have their mother's wit and presence of mind. It lets me know that part of this wonderful person lives on through another generation.

Congrats on four weeks, WTBB.

 

[Wanttobebetter]

"I don't know what it is that I find attractive in a woman's face but I see it in some faces and not in others."

Exactly, lte. Photos especially just baffle me. I see a photo of a face that stuns me. Yet, I look and I look but I can never actually describe precisely which features pull me in. It is a wonderful mystery and I do enjoy examining my inability to describe what I see. I don't spend a weird amount of time staring at a photo, but it is fun to occasionally delve into what's going on. Body features are pretty obvious, it's those pesky faces I can't figure out.

I wonder what the female perspective is on this?

 

[SO Reboot Partner]

Phi or 1.618 or the "Golden Ratio" is often used to quantify the "why something is attractive" discussion. It is used in the proportional design of logos and in photoshopping faces and is found in Greek columns and the repeating patterns in nature. We like it as observers of the natural world and are beguiled by it in the commercial world, probably because of the shape of our eyes and the lens and our experience - but still we like it.

Photographs, images are not real people. They are two dimensional. They do not age. They do not adhere to the laws of gravity when you tilt a hard-copy paper image to one side. It is only an image. The observer provides all the meaning here, even if manipulated with pixels and color, assigning value and worth - oftentimes making the jump from valuing the picture to valuing the real person in the picture, perhaps confusing the two very different things.

There is a beautiful hardwood tree I see everyday on my way to work. The canopy reflects a fractal geometry of growth, some of its branches reaching in odd and deformed ways over the passing cars. All the movement and life of what has to be well over a century and a half is visible. Trees move very slowly, but they react to changes in environment because they are living things.

Some see this tree as a hazard, a danger. The branches hanging over the street are larger than most trees. Others see a table or wood flooring or something that can be made from what must be some lovely grained wood within the textured bark. Pieces and parts are imagined, valued and contemplated until someone makes a decision to act and cut the old boy down.

A tree is not a table or chair. It is a living thing with a natural purpose, a claim on life, until we begin to imagine it as something else, assign it value or determine it is a hazard. Trees are not people. A tree does not mourn  crushing a car or hurting someone. It is easy to objectify a tree, even if it is a living thing with its own natural value. We see this as completely rational.

Like many people, I was shocked and horrified by the murders in California this past weekend. My thoughts are with the survivors, Elliot's parents and those that mourn the loss of lives incomplete. Elliot imagined women as criminals, worthy of disdain and death. He could not see or value their lives because he imagined they did not value him. It is a logic each of us should recognize as a slippery slope of objectification.

Looking at pictures and videos and images and even other human beings there is a valuation that takes place. It may be built on a book that was read or life experience, but a valuation takes place. It is when that valuation becomes a call to action, when the object is not seen as a living thing with intrinsic purpose independent of the observer that trouble begins.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Wanttobebetter]

I think I will reserve most of my comments here, sorp. I want to see what others have to say as well. I would ask though if according to how I read your comments, I should go thru life with my eyes closed. You seem to be saying that if I look at a photograph and attempt to analyze what the features are that draw me to the subject in that photo I am actually doing little more than objectifying and placing value. Why should a face be any different to observe than a photo of a tree or a photo of Half Dome?
I'm also not sure that comparisons to young Elliott are useful in this particular conversation. It is clear to me that however sad and shocking the event may have been, the young man was clearly insane, making any comparison thereto a bit difficult relative to our thread here.

 

[SO Reboot Partner]

I think I will reserve most of my comments here, sorp. I want to see what others have to say as well. I would ask though if according to how I read your comments, I should go thru life with my eyes closed. You seem to be saying that if I look at a photograph and attempt to analyze what the features are that draw me to the subject in that photo I am actually doing little more than objectifying and placing value. Why should a face be any different to observe than a photo of a tree or a photo of Half Dome?
I'm also not sure that comparisons to young Elliott are useful in this particular conversation. It is clear to me that however sad and shocking the event may have been, the young man was clearly insane, making any comparison thereto a bit difficult relative to our thread here.

Yes, it is uncomfortable to talk about. I think that is true. There is a slippery slope to the logic of objectification or none of us would be here.

Extreme objectification is insane.

 

[Bibbity]

Women are commodities in our culture so objectifying them comes easy.  It's like their bodies belong to us.  There is no greater commodity than a beautiful woman.  I agree with SORP that it is a slippery slope, especially when porn is involved as is the case for us here.  It takes the commodity of the female body one step further.  Females become things.  You can do heinous acts to 'things'.

On the other hand I find men extremely attractive and I especially love dark beards!  I will look once at a handsome man and sometimes feel a little 'tingle' of excitement.  I think this is normal for a healthy sexual adult.  It isn't even a conscious thing sometimes. Doesn't go any further than that.  I love my husband dearly and would never disrespect him.  I personally don't buy into the idea that only men are visual creatures.  Women are known for their sense of style, interest in beautiful flowers and colors (we even see more colors than men) but we aren't the visual sex? Nonsense!

I should also add that this is something that should be discussed with your partner at length.  My comfort level may not be the same as others.  When we were first going through our reboot I wouldn't allow my husband to look at anyone and he HAD to respect that until I could heal.  He did the best he could but I accused him a LOT during that time. There were many times I fantasized about being alone and divorcing him so I didn't have to care who we'd run into.  It's so ironic that men would be looking at me while I felt this way in my relationship. Mind boggling.  He is now much more mindful when we are out and focused on us and the task at hand rather than randomly wandering with his eyes.  This has allowed me to heal (still healing) and let things go back to 'normal'.  The thing is we are not in normal relationships!  Porn has destroyed a lot of our faith and trust in our partners.  A 2 second look at the FYT might be fine in some relationships but not in others.  Communication with your spouse is key.  Respect for the women you are looking at and respect for your wife is paramount in these encounters. My husband feels now that looking at others is giving them his sexual energy when he should be giving that to me. 

A great read which sums up how looking at others can affect your spouse is the book "For Men Only".  It really can wreak havoc on your self esteem and you feel you can't measure up.  There was a good story in it about a famous football coach who would look down when the cheerleaders came on and wouldn't grant interviews to scantily clad 'reporters'.  He was asked "aren't you worried about offending them" and he replied "The only woman I am afraid of offending is my wife, and that's just not going to happen on my watch".  I should try and find the exact quote from my book but this just illustrates the lengths some men will go to to protect and honor their wives.  Some men do look away and are just fine 

 

[LTE]

Women are commodities in our culture so objectifying them comes easy.  It's like their bodies belong to us.  There is no greater commodity than a beautiful woman.  I agree with SORP that it is a slippery slope, especially when porn is involved as is the case for us here.  It takes the commodity of the female body one step further.  Females become things.  You can do heinous acts to 'things'.

On the other hand I find men extremely attractive and I especially love dark beards!  I will look once at a handsome man and sometimes feel a little 'tingle' of excitement.  I think this is normal for a healthy sexual adult.  It isn't even a conscious thing sometimes. Doesn't go any further than that.  I love my husband dearly and would never disrespect him.  I personally don't buy into the idea that only men are visual creatures.  Women are known for their sense of style, interest in beautiful flowers and colors (we even see more colors than men) but we aren't the visual sex? Nonsense!

I should also add that this is something that should be discussed with your partner at length.  My comfort level may not be the same as others.  When we were first going through our reboot I wouldn't allow my husband to look at anyone and he HAD to respect that until I could heal.  He did the best he could but I accused him a LOT during that time. There were many times I fantasized about being alone and divorcing him so I didn't have to care who we'd run into.  It's so ironic that men would be looking at me while I felt this way in my relationship. Mind boggling.  He is now much more mindful when we are out and focused on us and the task at hand rather than randomly wandering with his eyes.  This has allowed me to heal (still healing) and let things go back to 'normal'.  The thing is we are not in normal relationships!  Porn has destroyed a lot of our faith and trust in our partners.  A 2 second look at the FYT might be fine in some relationships but not in others.  Communication with your spouse is key.  Respect for the women you are looking at and respect for your wife is paramount in these encounters. My husband feels now that looking at others is giving them his sexual energy when he should be giving that to me. 

A great read which sums up how looking at others can affect your spouse is the book "For Men Only".  It really can wreak havoc on your self esteem and you feel you can't measure up.  There was a good story in it about a famous football coach who would look down when the cheerleaders came on and wouldn't grant interviews to scantily clad 'reporters'.  He was asked "aren't you worried about offending them" and he replied "The only woman I am afraid of offending is my wife, and that's just not going to happen on my watch".  I should try and find the exact quote from my book but this just illustrates the lengths some men will go to to protect and honor their wives.  Some men do look away and are just fine 

It's good to remember that men do have the choice to look away. I certainly have changed my attitude regarding ogling, etc, and it's changed my life for the better. There are some attractive women I encounter at work and I feel like I enjoy them more now that I have learned to control my eyes. I see their overall beauty, not just a collection of parts. More importantly, I am able to enjoy them as persons to a much greater degree and can speak to them with a clear conscience.

 

[sonofJack]

I find myself thrust into a position where I have to question my motives. Last night, a group of us ran with one of our country's Olympic marathoners, to help out his sponsor, and a local running store. Being a special event, it drew out some folks who aren't in our usual circle. The people I run with occupy a broad spectrum of body types, ages, abilities, and of course, both sexes; none of which usually affects me (with the exception of a random split second glimpse if one of the ladies who comes into my field of view).

I'm not an ogler. I have held my gaze for more than one second, at a women who is not my wife. If I am in any way acquainted with this person, I instinctively avert said gaze out of respect for both her and our relationship. If I am not, I avert because it just seems creepy.

Last night, a women who I did not recognize as being a regular, showed up in rather revealing tights (perhaps one second is even too long for the male mind to spend analyzing such topics). My running buddy jabbed me with his elbow, pointed (ugh) at her, and said "I'm following THAT!" His daughter, who was running with him, looked appalled. I don't know if he did keep her in his sights; I didn't wish to find out, so I took off and got in front of her as quickly as possible.

We may be hardwired to objectify everyone we come in contact with as we go through our daily lives. A person who could be a threat to our safety, someone who appears vulnerable and in possible need of our assistance, a customer who may tip well, or someone who attracts our attention be it intellectually, spiritually, or sexually. As much as we rail against media for skewing the ideal of sexual perfection, we are also left to use those same rules to assess ourselves; always wondering if we measure up.

Shortly after I moved to the front of the run, I was joined by another runner. She's young, pretty, and gives of the vibe of someone who is deeply interested in whatever the person she's looking at has to say about anything. I knew why she jumped ahead to me too: she was checking me out. It wasn't my greying hair, skinny legs, or pasty skin that caught her eye though; after two minutes of running, she was able to ascertain that our running paces would be compatible for the rest of the five mile jaunt.

That was it. Not my brilliant mind, my incredible conversational skills, my sharp wit, or even my body; she was after my...sense of pace.

I should feel used.

 

[SO Reboot Partner]

I find myself thrust into a position where I have to question my motives. Last night, a group of us ran with one of our country's Olympic marathoners, to help out his sponsor, and a local running store. Being a special event, it drew out some folks who aren't in our usual circle. The people I run with occupy a broad spectrum of body types, ages, abilities, and of course, both sexes; none of which usually affects me (with the exception of a random split second glimpse if one of the ladies who comes into my field of view).

I'm not an ogler. I have held my gaze for more than one second, at a women who is not my wife. If I am in any way acquainted with this person, I instinctively avert said gaze out of respect for both her and our relationship. If I am not, I avert because it just seems creepy.

Last night, a women who I did not recognize as being a regular, showed up in rather revealing tights (perhaps one second is even too long for the male mind to spend analyzing such topics). My running buddy jabbed me with his elbow, pointed (ugh) at her, and said "I'm following THAT!" His daughter, who was running with him, looked appalled. I don't know if he did keep her in his sights; I didn't wish to find out, so I took off and got in front of her as quickly as possible.

We may be hardwired to objectify everyone we come in contact with as we go through our daily lives. A person who could be a threat to our safety, someone who appears vulnerable and in possible need of our assistance, a customer who may tip well, or someone who attracts our attention be it intellectually, spiritually, or sexually. As much as we rail against media for skewing the ideal of sexual perfection, we are also left to use those same rules to assess ourselves; always wondering if we measure up.

Shortly after I moved to the front of the run, I was joined by another runner. She's young, pretty, and gives of the vibe of someone who is deeply interested in whatever the person she's looking at has to say about anything. I knew why she jumped ahead to me too: she was checking me out. It wasn't my greying hair, skinny legs, or pasty skin that caught her eye though; after two minutes of running, she was able to ascertain that our running paces would be compatible for the rest of the five mile jaunt.

That was it. Not my brilliant mind, my incredible conversational skills, my sharp wit, or even my body; she was after my...sense of pace.

I should feel used.

lol - it is your pace. utility, usefulness that captures the imagination! lol

What I find wonderful about your post is it illustrates the ethical dilemma, your reasoning and your choice. Yes we are discriminating pale apes or God's children that look for danger, safety, the injured, but we also deal with our thoughts and actions in terms of our better selves instead of seeking permission. I think that is morality.