Trashing a Life Without Knowing It

fyg

Well-Known Member
Hi Carlson, I read your thread to post #9... I have been a people pleaser too, and my mission is to become authentic also (well, part of it!)... I'm finding that I drop into old habits too (absolutely, they die hard) and yep I agree there is a reason lots of people don't change; as it takes hard work. BUt... It sounds like you have the bit-between-your-teeth from what I've read. Great stuff and nice to 'talk to you'. Well, talk at you. Ha ha :D


Cheers.
 
B

Branch

Guest
carlson said:
Branch,

That is wonderful advice - thank you.  I am working on that quite a bit.  Not always easy, as everyone knows, but important to do.  At my best, I can get there - at my worst, it is difficult to see.  Mood swings have been my biggest challenge so far.  I wonder how many other people have had similar challenges with their swinging moods.  I very much look forward to a day when I don't have tears in my eyes.

But that is the challenge - see the depression and the guilt as one more issue to face, understand, then move beyond.  Thank you, Branch.

No problem, Carlson.

As I've grappled with my porn addiction, "Mood Swings" has been my middle name.  My motivation and attitude could change from one extreme to the other in a heartbeat.  I've finally realized that the reason was my ambivalence.  It's only been a couple of days since I crossed over from quitting to quit, but the world looks very different as a result.

Having said that, I'm not sure it's relevant to your situation.  Tears can be cleansing, but tears everyday obviously are something else.  Having suffered from depression, and having recovered from it after a year or more of counseling (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) with a wonderful counselor--this about 12 years ago--I wonder if your shame is somehow bound up in the depression you've been facing.  I'm not a psychologist, so I can't say for sure.  At the same time, given the intensity of your mood swings and shame, I think you should seriously consider seeing a psychologist and/or a psychiatrist.  In the practice where I got therapy, I saw a psychologist regularly and a psychiatrist every so often.  I was staring into the abyss, and they changed my life, especially the psychologist.  Even during my porn addiction, I've used what I learned and haven't fallen back into depression. Our generation was raised to believe we can solve all of our problems ourselves, and getting counseling carries a stigma.  If that was true, none of us would be on RN.  We've learned better.  I can tell you that mental illness is real and the right therapy works to heal it. 

Of course what you do is up to you, but I think seeing a counselor is something for you to consider very seriously.

The good new is you're staying away from porn--for which I salute you!

Branch
 

carlson

Member
Branch,

I agree that a therapist is essential for managing the depression.  Working with one - and despite what was a very difficult week, I'm starting to feel better about managing or avoiding the depressive spirals. I agree that shame and guilt are huge parts of this - and the dopamine withdrawal is only making it more acute.  This has to be managed - just like the quitting.  I can't let depression lure me in any more than I can porn.

 
B

Branch

Guest
carlson, I agree with Chip that there are better days ahead.  Hang in there!
 

carlson

Member
Thank you, Chip, for your inspiring comments.  You are right, every day is a gift.  And each day is an opportunity to be in the world, to love it, to care for it, and to leave the shadows behind.  Thank you.

Learning how to better avoid the downs these last few days. Thank you, Branch, for your supportive words as well.

Beware everyone if you haven't hit these rocky shoals yet.  The depression and self-loathing will start to seem rational, or even righteous - but it is a yet another perverse trap set by brain suffering withdrawal.  Fight it before it get's large.  Meditate, exercise, smell a rose...do anything but don't fall into a spiral of depression.  It won't help make you any better - it will only hurt you and the people around you.  Believe me, I know from experience.

Another day without PMO is a good day.  And the days will only get better.
 

Emerald Blue

Well-Known Member
Carlson, thank you. I'm glad that my ramblings on the partners forum have been helpful to you and your wife. Honesty isn't as straightforward as I thought! I do actually accept that my partner probably can't remember some aspects of his acting out behaviors and can't answer some questions honestly for that reason. The intention of honesty and making a conscious effort to be open about as much as possible is the important thing to a partner.

Depression and porn addiction go hand in hand. My partner was always prone to bouts of melancholy and was rarely happy about anything. Since quitting, I would say the early months were an emotional hell for him. For us both actually, but for different reasons. Waking up to the damage he caused through porn addiction was very traumatic for him. More recently he's sort of falsely "happy" which doesn't feel quite right to me. I think he's not sure who he actually is right now. I think he's trying to invent a "new" version of himself but it's strangely superficial. He's returning to his long neglected hobbies and interests, the things he did before he was hooked on internet porn. It's great to see him rediscovering his old self. At the same time it's also driving home the foolishness of his porn addiction. He's hyper-aware of how much of his time, energy and emotional resources were eaten up by all the seeking and searching for more and more porn and all the rituals that went with the habit. Not to mention living a lie. What a waste of a life. I'm glad he's quit. 
 

carlson

Member
Thank you for your comment, Emerald Blue.  It is a challenge to manage and live with the unassailable fact of one's wrong-doing.  It's also frighteningly difficult to change old patterns of thought and established habits of behavior.  In some ways, PMO is simple to change since it's a binary decision:  do it, don't do it.  Every day habits of behavior and thought take more time and more thoughtful work - whether it's hiding from others and your own shame by being superficial, or lying to make things seem better - or even dropping into depression as a way of atoning for one's sins.  These are well-established patterns that are difficult to understand, alter, and ultimately replace with more healthy habits.

At the heart of this, I was never comfortable with connecting intimately or being truly present with anyone.  All these behaviors were coping mechanisms to keep me alone and "safe" from the judgments of others.  Today I know that all I want is a deep and intimate connection with my wife and to be truly present for my daughter.  Sometimes getting close scares me, sometimes before I realize it, I will retreat into old habits.  But when I don't, when I find enough courage and energy to truly be with her - to listen to every word and notice every gesture,  to simply be with her as I am...when I do that, I feel like the sun has just brightened, like the world is a good place, like I BELONG here with her and am not simply waiting for the moment when she and everyone else becomes tired of putting up with me.

Call it what you will, melancholy, depression, whatever - it is a way of getting trapped inside your own head - and of hating yourself. Every time old shitty, scared, and depressed me shows up, I am trapped by despair. If that is what you are used to doing, it can be challenging to get out of it...especially when you realize how much you have hurt others.  The quitting of PMO is just the first part.  I don't want to be in this cage any more - I want to be connected to my wife. 

The connection is the prize - being with someone you love and finding happiness together.

 

carlson

Member
"Time is the fire in which we burn."  That quote has been sticking in my mind lately.  It was written by Delmore Schwartz in his poem, ?Calmly We Walk Through This April's Day?.  The only reason I knew about it was because it was quoted in a Star Trek movie several years ago.  I'm realizing more and more clearly that my time is limited and that every piece of it is worth something.  Whether I kill time with PMO, with idle day-dreaming, with depressive thoughts, or with anything outside of what I care about, I am burning precious time - and I'm not valuing the time I have.

Apparently, the poet Delmore Schwartz died in his early fifties from alcohol addiction and depression.  He burned his time away. 

Every moment, transitioning from activity to activity, getting to work, picking up groceries and making dinner...this is not down time to be filled with distractions like the radio, television, day dreaming or worse - this is valuable time to be filled with presence, with gratitude for another boring moment, with passion to live with purpose, even when you are doing nothing.

Let's not kill our time and our selves - let's celebrate every moment, good or bad.
 
B

Branch

Guest
carlson said:
"Time is the fire in which we burn."  That quote has been sticking in my mind lately.  It was written by Delmore Schwartz in his poem, ?Calmly We Walk Through This April's Day?.  The only reason I knew about it was because it was quoted in a Star Trek movie several years ago.  I'm realizing more and more clearly that my time is limited and that every piece of it is worth something.  Whether I kill time with PMO, with idle day-dreaming, with depressive thoughts, or with anything outside of what I care about, I am burning precious time - and I'm not valuing the time I have.

Apparently, the poet Delmore Schwartz died in his early fifties from alcohol addiction and depression.  He burned his time away. 

Every moment, transitioning from activity to activity, getting to work, picking up groceries and making dinner...this is not down time to be filled with distractions like the radio, television, day dreaming or worse - this is valuable time to be filled with presence, with gratitude for another boring moment, with passion to live with purpose, even when you are doing nothing.

Let's not kill our time and our selves - let's celebrate every moment, good or bad.

Every word of this rings true for me, carlson, because what's bothered me most--actually tortured me--is all the precious time wasted on porn--indulging, thinking about it, struggling with it, the whole mess.  Time is the most valuable thing we have in this world, and though I don't follow any particular dogma,  I believe wasting time is a sin.  But enough about me--your perspective is wonderful.  Fallible as we are, we may never celebrate every moment, but we couldn't have a higher goal.  Or so it seems to me.

Thanks for the inspiration.
 

carlson

Member
Well - here I sit, past the 60 day mark on this reboot - have I learned anything, am I any better than before?

Well - I'm not doing any PMO - that's a definite improvement.  And I don't have any desire to return to my old life of lies, secrets, passive complicity with the abuse and exploitation of young girls, objectification of women, or objectification of self.  No urges.  This is the right path, there is no doubt in my mind.  My body feel stronger, my brain clearer, and my soul is getting a little bit cleaner.

On the other hand there is plenty of regret, guilt and sadness.  The knowledge of what I did, the disengagement from my wife, the distance from my daughter, the throwing away of years of potential joy, and of the hard reality that I was a shitty Dad, an unloving husband, and a habitual teller of lies is difficult to square with who I am and who I want to be in the future.  Worse yet, the habits of the past have not all gone away.  When I get frightened about losing my family, I stupidly withdraw - just like I always  did in the past.  In 60 days, I've told even more lies - oddly trying to defend who I was in the past - instead of being able to FULLY acknowledge what  a bastard I was, how compulsive I had become, how brutally wrong it all was - and how much pain I had caused.  As I've worked through everything that happened, and tried to answer every question my wife has asked, I've learned more and more about what happened and what I was thinking.  At first, I thought I was being honest - but as I become more honest with myself, I've discovered that there were quite a few things I was in denial about.  And instead of fully being the man I want to be, I've retreated into depression and obsessed about myself when I should be connecting to others.

I understand more than ever before why my wife is so angry and hurt.  Every story that changes from the first week of disclosure is another wound to her sense of reality, to her sense that she could ever trust me again, to any vision of a better life for her and my daughter.  She is an amazing fighter - and has engaged with me through the recovery in incredible ways - but what is in this for her?  When do I start becoming the husband she deserves?  This can't be a process that takes years - or even months.  There must be tangible change now.

I believe that the husband she deserves is there - but he needs to be strong now - he needs to get comfortable with discomfort, just as he did with PMO withdrawal.  He needs to get out of his head - he needs to have courage when there is no rational reason to be courageous.  He needs to engage with life, no matter what happens, and accept emotions and pain as part of life.  He needs to give his wife something more than a recovery...she deserves a renewal.

And it occurs to me that withdrawing for good from PMO only took a decision - a true, to the heart, to the core, decision that this will be no more.  Can't these other behaviors - though some have been a part of my life longer than the porn, be changed with a decision as well? 

In that decision, I had to accept that I was an addict - then put everything I was into changing it.

In this decision to be a genuine, present, and giving man to my family - I have to accept that I have been a self-obsessed, arrogant ego-maniac pretending to be a nice guy.  This has to be fully accepted without depression or feeling sorry for self.  I have to just accept the truth of who I've been.  Now, how do I live without being that guy?  How do I not succumb to the temptation to believe my own shit - to hold myself up as a great person - to retreat into thoughts - to not listen - to not be a jerk?

There's a long list of behaviors that must change - but they all come from the same root - my ego.  The ego has to go.  All that matters is the world outside my head - not what it thinks of me, but what it is.  I have to focus all my energy on others - on learning them, on delighting in them, in living my life to care for and support others in ways big and small.

I might be a little better - but there's quite a bit more work to do.
 

TK-421

Active Member
Thanks for your post - I appreciate your openness and can relate to much of what you say, especially the effect that depression can have on your moods. I do think it's important to keep perspective and not endlessly beat yourself up for the past and for lost time. Acknowledge the past, make amends where you can and move forward to a more positive future. If you overdo regret and remorse I think it takes away from your present recovery and, in fact, continues to rob you of your time. I think it is also possible to overdo things in your relationships with your wife and daughter in a (well intentioned) attempt to atone for past missteps. I think the goal needs to be to be honest, open and be your authentic self. You don't need to be perfect going forward. Acknowledge that you made mistakes in the past and are sorry for those, but are serious about being on a better path going forward. Again, I think if you allow your regret about the past to cause you to become depressed about your present, you have lost perspective and are  putting your recovery at risk (as well as allowing the addition to continue to rob you of your time).
 

Gabriel1960

Active Member
The problem I had with SA was that it isn't independently moderated.  So very misguided (sometimes well-meaning) members can hijack the meeting and the entire recovery process along with it.  I remember once a woman member (a therapist) who showed and announced that she was going to call the police to report what she had heard shared at the meeting.....that it was her professional responsibility.  What a mess.

Welcome to RN.  I've found a lot of help and support here. 

Back in the 90's, it used be very difficult for me to chase after all of the self-destructive behaviors I was trying to trash my life  with/abstain from:  drinking, PMO, smoking, gambling, sugar, even shopping.  It was effortless for me to switch from one behavior to the other.  At first, I was even chain-smoking cigars!  :)
Somehow it all worked itself out.   
I give God all the credit.  It wasn't me that stopped.   
 

carlson

Member
A few days have passed since my last posting, thank you to TK, Gabriel and Branch for your kind words of support.  I'm surprised that my posting seemed negative, and caused any concern.  I am sorry.  In this process of disclosure, I don't know if I've found the right calibration for  how I communicate my struggle with others - and that quite often, my focus on the problem means I am not discussing the successes or the improvements in my life.  I owe this community more than my own struggle - this is not a place to just drop emotional garbage, but to pick through the pieces and make something better - to help others on their journey as well.

My reboot is on solid footing.  And, the remaking of how I function in a life without PMO and without self obsession is off to a good start.

Much of the thinking in my last post is starting to pay off - my decision to be a genuine, present, and giving man to my family.  I'm by no means hitting everything on my list of needed change, but I think I'm making progress, and that I am spending less and less time feeling sorry for myself, falling into self-hatred, or shying away from engaging thanks to guilt or shame.

If this is going to succeed, I have to move away from it being all about me - and towards it being ALL ABOUT OTHERS.  Thanks to my wife's recommendation,
I've spent some time re-reading and studying Don Miguel Ruiz's book, The Four Agreements - and have found it to be extremely useful for my thinking and to help re-wire my behaviors and thinking mistakes as a person - not just as a recovering addict.

I have made an important decision:  I choose to live in this world, to take joy in other people, to embrace the agreements of Making my Word Impeccable, Not Taking Things Personally, Make no Assumptions, and Always do my Best.

There's a lot of work to do - and I have to fill in quite a few behaviors, thought patterns, and habits.  But I am doing it, and I'm getting better at it every day.  I strongly recommend that others read Mr. Ruiz's book on Toltec wisdom.

This is not an easy journey for any of us - but it is essential.  I am grateful to everyone who is willing to share their thoughts and challenges with this community.  The work of recovery and renewal is our own - but the community of others on the same journey is so important.  For me, anyway, this has been a marked improvement on what I experienced at SA - the thoughtful conversations here help me to put so much into perspective, be inspired, improve strategy and resole - and sometimes even give me a chance to help out with others - even a little. 

Thank you.
 
B

Branch

Guest
No apology necessary.  Though my concerns are genuine, I think now it would've been better to give you a little time to process and work through everything before replying.  I think you're making a stellar effort and introspection is part of it.  You've found renewed energy and focus on your goals.  Just keep an eye on the negative thoughts and don't let them go too far down, because you don't want to undermine yourself.  Fair enough?  In any event, I'm always pulling for you.



 

Gabriel1960

Active Member
Yo.

I realized this morning that I kind of miss the excitement of constantly kicking my own ass.  But only in a small way. 

It sure makes it easier to remain adult and mature - when I'm not kicking my own butt.
 
Hello Carlson!

I'm also 51 and I'm on my second reboot.  Today is day 33 for me.  I think it is admirable that you want to save your marriage and family.  It sounds like you are doing everything you can.  With me, porn was not me falling in love with all the women, it was to relieve stress.  I agree with Branch.  You admitted to yourself and others the hurt you caused.  It's time to let it go and forgive yourself and in due time your wife will need to forgive you or not.  I do not know if you believe in God or not.  I listen to to this video every night before I go to bed.  It may help you and your wife and countless others who visit this site. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMTFJ7mo1B8
 

carlson

Member
Thank you Davesaint86 - and congratulation on day 33!  Forgiveness - so important.  Thank you for the link to the video, I'll check it out.  I've been spending a lot of time working on forgiving - not the easiest thing to do, but the more I do it, the better things are.  Thank you.
 
B

Boo

Guest
carlson said:
Thank you Davesaint86 - and congratulation on day 33!  Forgiveness - so important.  Thank you for the link to the video, I'll check it out.  I've been spending a lot of time working on forgiving - not the easiest thing to do, but the more I do it, the better things are.  Thank you.

Hey carlson,

You're doing good brother. Like I've told others here, when you start getting out of your own head then it becomes easier to pour yourself into those closest to you, you know, the ones who are really going to contribute to your happiness and sense of well being. It's hard to serve porn and serve those you care about. One of them will invariably be neglected. You choose which one.

As for depression, I would consider it worthy of your time to read this short article by Dr,. Amy Johnson. Here's the link:

http://dramyjohnson.com/2013/06/the-link-between-focusing-on-yourself-and-depression/



 

carlson

Member
Boo,

Thank you for the link - I completely agree about getting out of one's head.  What Dr. Amy Johnson describes is connected to what I am learning about depression in my life - even before the addiction.  The more I focus on other people's lives, on their stories, on their needs, on their challenges, the better I feel.  It's a direct correlation for me - think about someone else's world, get out of mine, stop being depressed.

I wonder if that is a big part of why this forum has been so helpful for me. Instead of just thinking about my own struggles, this forum invites us to worry about others, put ourselves in other people's shoes, to perhaps offer advice, consolation, and encouragement - to get out of our heads and reach out to others.

Thank you, Boo, for being a leader in these discussions.  You are making a difference.
 
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