Getting back to life

[SETI]

Still a bit amazed.

Honestly, guys - to all of you who reboot and put in effort, but feel that it is not working as great:

- as William wrote in his great (a must-read) thread (http://legacy.rebootnation.org/index.php?topic=1256.0) we are addicted to dopamine, NOT porn

- this is crucially important. Why? Because if you guys are addicted, like I am, your brain will work around porn to find you artificial dopamine kicks: searching Facebook, looking in the Internet, staring at girls on the streets -> you will NOT WATCH PORN BUT STILL YOU WILL BE ON THE DOPAMINE KICK

- so do not stop watching Fb or images in the Internet (gossip sites - the worst of all) out of pure will to not watch, but to reboot, to effectively reboot

- the mistake I made was that I always knew that Fb and images, and staring is bad but thought that is still not PMOing so better do that than PMO

- that is bullshit; it is merely the same - if you're looking for real, life changing effect, drop all dopamine cravings

- this is a lifestyle change, I must say

- please keep fingers crossed that I stay on the path that I now tread

- I want to stay on it very much

J.

What you are describing is a big change and I agree with you that this is probably the most effective way to go!
I noticed that my brain (?) wants those kicks still and just because I dropped P it don't mean I find it elsewhere. It changes of course, what the poison of the week is, but its always there in the addicted brain. Gonna take a good long think about this. Thanks for sharing!

 

[jkkk]

Hey, thanks guys, Adrian and Seti, for your words.

I see it more clearly with every day - there is no way than a radical way.

It's nothing new to me really, I read about it a lot: Patrick Carnes in "Don't Call It Love" wrote a massive lot about how a recovering sex addict is a different specie from other people.

And I always thought that he is... exaggerating.

This is how the addiction reasons with every one of us: you're not THAT addicted, certainly a bit of THIS will do no harm.

This is all treacherous and extremely dangerous.

I'm scared a bit by the radicalism that hits my head now. But I remember that 4 years ago I was totally radical and I was clean for a long time - then I become more TOLERANT and all the sh*t came back.

There is no way you can tolerate your addiction.

All the above is not to say that there is smooth sailin' now. I now see me cliches, my movements, my addictive habits, the way I look, where I look and so on... I'm pretty busted, really. I see no solution than to fight this radically.

 

[William]

There are two types of guys here.  The first type--and I like them--are here fighting to keep their addiction in their lives.  They want to keep porn in their lives.  They are nice guys.  They will win that fight and will stay slaves forever.  I feel sorry for them. Then there are the other type, jkkk.  You and I are in this group.  We won't be slaves anymore.  There is only black and white, there is no gray.  There is no compromise with porn addiction.  You kill it or you serve it.  It is a hard choice, but the guys who are free make the choice to kill it.  You have made it.

Keep going.  Porn is not an option.

Much love. 

Choose life. 

 

[jkkk]

Thanks, William, for your words.

Yes, unfortunately, in this particular area, with this addiction (this may apply to all addictions) there is no gray. No soft way. I've been hoping for it for years. I once thought that the last phase of recovery is to be more "in the grey". This is how I understood the books on addictions I read. But I misunderstood them. I did not get what they wrote about.

I can say for sure that I know a relapse. And that, in honesty, I had many. Some I called "hard", where I just watched P, some I called "soft" or did not even call them relapses where I used porn substitutes (eg. Facebook, gossip sites, Internet images). The whole idea of a hard/soft relapse is just a cruel trick the addiction plays with us. Do not get into that game. Stay away. You'll be equally harmed by both.

That said, if any of you guys reading this is in doubt about whether they are relapsing too much or struggling too much: every day where you resist to plunge into dopamine kicks brings you closer. But it is also true that if you want a real change - you'll have to get rid of any dopamine spiking stuff.

And if only you are addicted as I am I can tell you - you know how to look for it. I know how to look for it. I don't need Internet for that - it is a too obvious source. I can use the girls at the bus or at the mall. You may as well. You probably sometimes think that there is nothing unnatural in having a look at pretty ladies, guys do that right? No, it's not. Lots and lots of guys, regardless of whether they are in relationships or not, do not oggle at ladies in public places. Because it's not normal. It will not help you. It will set you back. Want to be with a woman, in any kind of meaning this phrase carries? Talk to her. Talk to her. Don't look at her tits and think how they look. Don't look at her ass thinking how round it is. You will never find the perfect one. You will always want more. And more. You're addicted.

I'm writing this for myself. That's for sure.

I'm sticking on to my guns. It's not easy. My addiction is a b****. I have to turn my head a lot not to look where I don't want to. It doesn't feel easy. But it gets better every day. I want something better, I want it badly.

 

[jkkk]

So I'm fighting.

Guys, there is no other way. There is no other way than to switch off all erotic material, all porn, all masturbation, all touching yourself, all fantasies, all sleazy looks at girls on the bus, at parties, on streets and any other places where you think you can oggle at girls to have your dopamine kick.

I'm only 30-few days in the process, but without getting too excited... IT IS WORKING. I'm at a totally different concentration level. I feel good and able to look people in the eye. I feel excited about my wife like I haven't for a long time. And this is just a beginning, I tell myself.

This is not to say it is easy. It is the exact opposite of easy. I have to actively stop myself from doing things and making moves I did constantly in my life. It's a nightmare at times when I literally don't know what to do with my eyes.

But I will soldier on. I only know understand how addicted I am.

Jump on this bus, guys. Only total reboot works.

 

[Promise]

So do you think M without fantasy or death grip or any of that rubbish will ruin a reboot?

Grats on making it so long, you're doing a ruddy good job.

 

[jkkk]

Hey Promise,

Good that you're asking.

Yes - I think any M will ruin your reboot. Same applies actually do any sexual behaviour apart from a situation with a real woman - preferably a girlfriend with whom you are at least a little bit emotionally connected. I would also exercise caution here, because - sorry for putting things into extreme - I think that having sex with a prostitute would also be a setback. Porn is not far from paid sex. In my view it is simply another facet of the other problem. That said any activity connected with using paid sex would be highly dopamine spiking.

Sex in a relationship is dopamine spiking as well, but IT IS a different story. If only you look at the coolidge effect schemes showed by Gary Wilson, you would notice that sex in a relationship does involve less dopamine spikes of smaller magnitude.

That's my view. I think others can have other views. But I've been in "the business" for some time now and I wasted lots of times thinking that just a bit of using - oggling at the occasional girls, watching the occasional photo on the net - won't do me any harm. It will.

Keeping fingers crossed for you.

Keep your's for me.

J.

 

[Promise]

We'll keep our fingers crossed for each other, I think I could use it

Could you elaborate on why you believe M ruins a reboot? (Not trying to be snarky or confrontational, I genuinely want opinions on this.  I'm also not trying to delude myself that it's okay even when it might not be; I'm open-minded, I'll just tell you my train of thought) The point of the reboot for me is to kick my addiction and return to healthy sexuality, and what can be more healthy and natural than lying back and enjoying the sensations of my own body, especially after 20 days of abstinence?  Ultimately what I want is a partner to share this with, but I don't see the problem with the occasional M if you're keeping a healthy attitude towards it.  Even if it does come with a nasty chaser.

I'll grant you that pure abstinence is better, but if we have a little indulgence here or there in a natural healthy way, is it really worth resetting our counter over? (Note, I'm not endorsing it, abstinence is the best way.)  Interested to see what you think on this one, and what you think of my reasoning.

 

[jkkk]

I'll be honest with you.

It's an addict's reasoning. And I know it very well, for I thought so for a very long time.

I think you can spot the problem yourself by looking and those two sentences, one after another:

Ultimately what I want is a partner to share this with, but I don't see the problem with the occasional M if you're keeping a healthy attitude towards it.  Even if it does come with a nasty chaser.

It will be difficult for you to find a partner if you keep doing any dopamine-spiking activity, M being of the main culprits.

I am not saying masturbation is not healthy. It is, but not for me. It's too late for me. And I think it's too late for most of guys here.

If you do set up for a total reboot, you will attract girls. The confidence, clarity, resolve and power that will be in you will be palpable for all people around. Women included. Or at the forefront, actually. Also, you will know exactly what to do not only attract them, but keep them. And suddenly this will feel just so much more rewarding.

Come on. Jump on. You have nothing to lose, apart from the pride that you have now telling you that you are in control and you know what you're doing.

 

[Promise]

You're probably right.  After a bit of thought, I've renewed my attempt to go 90 days hard mode and reset my counter.  I believe (and I know William would disagree with me ) that 1 MO in 20 days is progress.  Ultimately that 90 day reboot is paramount, but you can't knock progress.

How's it going now, jkkk?

 

[jkkk]

It is progress, no doubt about it.

But it is not enough. If you will stay with this one MO every 20 days forever, what is the perspective?

And it's not really like like - eh, just this one time, in 20 days I won't have the urge.

You will have the urge. Attack it, resist it now, don't wait a day longer. Every day of waiting is a lost day..

I'm OK, thanks for asking. There are different days - on some I only feel positives, on others the cravings are stronger. But I conditioned my brain very very strongly. I know and feel it now. But still, it is getting easier, every day, a tiny bit.

But I've got plenty of time to hold on

 

[Promise]

Well I don't really see MO as the demon, once I've rebooted I could see it being an occasional part of my life.  Conversely I could also see myself living without it.  I'm gonna strive for that 90 days first.


Good to hear things are getting better, jkkk, sounds like your strength and mood is on a general upward trend?  Awesome to see you doing so well!

 

[jkkk]

It's not about seeing things as demons.

I will put it this way - most people who rebooted successfully and hold on, the most successful guys here in this forum, abstain from M completely.

I think that is some food for thought.

 

[Promise]

Indeed it is, you're right.  Do you think, as porn addicts and ex-porn addicts it changes our relationship with masturbation, to the point where it isn't as 'natural' to us as it is to a 'healthy' guy?  Sorry for spamming your journal, let me know if you'd like me to stop

 

[jkkk]

Your most welcome to ask me questions here or on PM, whatever suits you. Maybe this will help someone, or us, so I have no problem about it.

Yes, I think the dopamine addiction makes us more or less unable to enjoy healthy masturbation and I'm inclined to think that this is for life.

The good part of it is that put you on a hunt - for real women, real relationship, real sex. I think it's worth it, even if real doesn't "match up" to porn - it's still better.

Same can happen to you - once you will be sincerely rebooting your confidence and drive for women will completely change their image in your mind and vice versa. I think that this might really be "the fun part" of the reboot.

 

[SETI]

The issue of MO for rebooters is very much debated, but from my experience, it will almost without fail lead to a bad place. As a recovering dopamine-addict, the dopamine we get from MO is actually comparable with PMO in terms of giving us a big surge of dopamine released. I have witnessed how this dopamine rush can give hangover effects to the rebooter (myself in this case) that include social anxiety, depression, lack of energy and a low sense of confidence.

I think the big issue is binging. If someone can do it twice a month and don't feel the need for more, then I think its not actually a problem. But having a recovering brain that longs for the dopamine rush, makes it is hard to keep it at that level. This is where the problem emerges, I think.

 

[Promise]

My sincere thanks, you two.  You've given me clarity on the issue where I had none before.

 

[William]

Unless you are alone in the dark, thinking about how cheese is made while MOing, you are probably using hypersexual thoughts, maybe even pornographic thoughts, while MOing, and that is just another way for a dopamine high.  Remember, porn is not just porn, it is seeing it, thinking of it, imagining it, remembering it, and on the way toward clean, during the reboot phase, it can a thoughts of a lot of stuff society does not even deem pornographic.  It is not MO only, but hypersexualized thought alone can give an addict a dopamine rush, that is why most advise trying not to linger on sexual thoughts during the reboot. 

 

[Promise]

Fully agree.  I find it's good to try and avoid sexual thoughts altogether, as one's attitude towards sex has probably been skewed by porn.

Although I feel I can happily M fantasy free and just enjoy the sensation if it's been a few days without O.  But really that's besides the point, it still produces that dopamine rush, and it still comes with a chaser effect, so why bother when you can reboot more effectively without it?

 

[jkkk]

So there are better days and just days.

These days are probably a bit more of the second for me.

As I wrote in my journal before, I am currently in a transition period as regards my flat: my wife and I, we're currently living with my parents as we are trying to put a budget together to buy and refurbish a flat. So the flat has been chosen, we technically bought it and just last Friday we signed the mortgage agreement. Which means basically that I now fall in the famed category of people with mortgages ;]

And this is not to say that it's a downer. The mortgage agreement is good, in my opinion, compared to the difficult market.

But the mere fact of signing it is enough though to be out of balance. It is a significant event and significant events affects us.

Especially us addicts. This is what I have learned through the years.

So I will do my best to hold guard as it might be just a bit more difficult for me now.

Keep your fingers crossed for me, guys, and wish me well.