Lifting the fog...

neon tiger

Active Member
As I am approaching the 60 day mark, I got some thinking to do. I think my testosterone levels are dropping. Last two weeks I've noticed an unusual fat distribution in me- and my diet has been quite clean. Also, I feel a bit lethargic physically.  (gotta keep in mind that I'm not drinking coffee either, but if anything, my enegy crashes have disappeared as coffee was left behind). I have not had a single wet dream or night emission, and maybe I am feeling a bit paranoid, but my nuts seem to be smaller (they got sturdier and fuller for the first month, but that's in the past- i do know that the body reabsorbs sperm and cum materials, but I'm thinking that since the body realizes demand is low, it's shutting down production)

What I've read so far is that test picks up at around the 7 day after an orgasm, then it seems like it steadily drops. But there is not a vast amount of valuable information out there. Just now I was reading reviews from the multi orgasmic man book that ngo recommended to another member on a post, and one of the reviews references that the book recommends a release every 10 or so days. I just turned 40, so my test is not particularly oozing.

If any of you guys have some valuable info to share, I would greatly appreciate it. I am considering for the next leg of my recovery to allow MO only to sensation every 7-10 days. No P. I pondered doing this earlier on in my recovery, but I am glad I didn't because more likely it was my PMO addicted brain trying to sabotage my reboot. And even if I move forward with this, I have to be uber vigilant-  set specific rules for when, where, and  how I would do it, at first at least.
 

lyon03

Respected Member
Hey brother. Thanks for sharing. I agree with you that MO too early in recovery will just lead to a full blown PMO relapse. I'm nearing 60 and REALLY wanted to rub one out in the shower yesterday but resisted. For me the issue is more about impulse control so I didn't give in. My fear is getting to obsessed about my junk will lead me to rationalize 'testing' which may or may not lead to relapse. Anyhow, enough of the rambling. Perhaps you should ask a more experienced rebooter this question and perhaps share your results? Food for thought. Stay strong brother: PMO IS NOT AN OPTION.
 

Gabe Deem

Administrator
Staff member
Admin
Moderator
@ Neon tiger
What I've read so far is that test picks up at around the 7 day after an orgasm, then it seems like it steadily drops.

Yes there seems to be a short, temporary spike of testosterone around day 7, then levels return to normal, they do not continue to drop, as far as we know so far. There is a lot of contradicting information regarding this, but the consensus if you read all the available medical literature on the topic is that abstinence has very little affect on T levels. Plus, we know that only a very small amount of T is needed to have an erection as guys well into their 80's can get erections if they are in good health.

Lethargy/ motivation is dopamine driven and dopamine dysregulation is likely behind your feelings of lethargy(aka addiction related brain changes). From your description it seems you are going through a flatline/withdrawal, for me this got really bad a month in and lasted for 6 months, at the ripe age of 23, so it is likely what you are experiencing is your brains rewards circuit rebalencing.

Before I go any further, this page has the information you need, and the related links. - http://yourbrainonporn.com/whats-the-connection-between-orgasm-and-testosterone-levels

My opinion is what you are experiencing has little or nothing to do with your T levels, and everything to do with your brains reward circuit and dopamine levels. Never hurts to go get checked by a good doc though. I went and got my T levels tested during my reboot when I had zero libido, low motivation, and lots of anxiety, and my levels were above normal.
 

neon tiger

Active Member
60 days- yay...

And even though I truly am proud and excited to have hit this checkpoint, I do say it in a sarcastic tone of sorts, because right now I feel like there's not too much to celebrate in my life besides the 60 days.

I'm home for the holidays now until the 3rd. I hate to love my family. Been looking forward  to this trip since September, but within 24 hours I am reminded loud and clear all the reasons I am glad I am not around. My mom is a chronically depressed woman with a strong emotional grip on everyone around; my 43 year old single mom sister just moved out of my mid 70's unhealthy parents house with her 6 year old son, but still stays here half the time, not to help them, but to be helped by them. I don't want to ramble on about this, but that's a good glimpse on the situation.
So why would I be looking forward to this? Well, in the last six months I completed a post graduate degree, got a new job, relocated, turned 40, (and began rebooting from PMO, unbeknownst to them- no need to share) and Ive gone through all this almost by myself, except for 3 friends that I am beyond grateful for, but don't see as often since I relocated. I have been too busy to build a social network since I started the new job, which is an entire new role, and let's not downplay how immensely difficult it is for me to connect with others in social settings.  It is so bitter for me to have good things happen to me with no one to share them with, I almost wished they never happened in the first place. My family though- well, I belong here, I am kin, I am part of it, I make it whole; or at least the idea of the family I hold on to, because there is not much of it left here. Love, yes, but barely any joy.

But still, there's plenty to celebrate in my life, and with 60 days of recovery under my belt, that desire for connection and kinship is even stronger. I have some friends from high school still in the area, people I had somewhat of a connection that went on for a couple years beyond high school. I did removed myself from many of them at around 20, looking to find people who were a better fit for me, but we still stayed in touch. Then, through the new people drugs entered the picture, and with them, my illusion of a sense of belonging, followed shortly thereafter by casual sex, porn, all those mirages. And then at 31 I moved to the U.S. But in the last five years or so that I've come to visit, we've met at gathering and have had a good time.  I figured they would show up if I put together a party for us to get together and celebrate our 40th birthdays together. Well, no one did. Guess my idea of what connecting is and what it really is are two different things. I've suspected this before, and have wondered many times in my life if there is a high functioning level of autism ( higher than asperger) that explains my seeming inability to 'get' people and social interactions, because I am definitely missing something- or was my upbringing so dysfunctional that I cannot overcome this skewed ness.

And then theres the arrival yesterday of my 44 year old brother from Oregon, who sent the family a group text message in October sharing with all of us that he left his wife and got married in August to a 25 year old woman, only for us to receive a group text two weeks later from the new wife saying that he abandoned him and went back to the old wife and she was crushed, and receiving another group message from my brother on the 20th of this month saying that they're back together and bought plane tickets to come for the holidays from the 29th to the 8th (this has been his pattern over that last 5 years, since he divorced his first wife- three additional wives under his belt, countless other romances). To say that the whole family is fed up with him is an understatement, yet my mother went out of her way and pushed beyond her health limits to have the house impeccable, cook a huge meal and upon their arrival, everyone looks delighted by their presence and company. Is this me once again not 'getting' people, but the anger and frustration in many conversations days before were very real. I wasn't rude or mean by any means, in fact I was very courteous, but also very casual.  I don't have the stamina to show a celebratory spirit when I don't see a lot to celebrate.

I am also jealous of course. I have been eating Christmas leftovers since Thursday (which I was okay with since I know how limited my mothers health is), and entertaining my sisters son so everyone else can take a breather or get stuff done (no other kids around), which I genuinely enjoy, but it is tiring. So, when people at work said "Puerto Rico, I'm so jealous" I would say to myself, "yeah, it's not what you think..."

I've wanted to PMO so bad; I've even wanted to go find out if my crack source is still in the same place. I'm not going to, but ugh! I'm heading out to the gym in a few, I am paying an exorbitant 10 bucks per visit, but it feels like money so well spent right now. I've been there every chance I get.

So my bro's 15 year old daughter is here with him, and out of the blue she had all these questions for me about yoga and meditation and the search for enlightenment. God knows she's been through some rough times in her life (my brother's marriage to her mom was very chaotic for most of the time it lasted, and now she lives with her verbally abusive mother). She a very interesting mind and soul, and we have a kinship since I took care of her for a summer when she was three. I'm looking forward to hang with her.

So yeah, 60 days- yay...


 

chiefmitch88

Active Member
Congratulations on meeting that goal Tiger. Great work!

I have some of those dysfunctional family problems as well. My mother was the daughter of a lifetime alcoholic philanderer and a compulsive easter and my father was raised without his own father around because he was also a philanderer. They are both very delicate people. My brothers are both depressed and likely addicted individuals. My wife had a very difficult childhood which led to negative coping behaviors.

My only refuge from their craziness are my sister, her husband, and my 3 nieces and nephew. Since I am an addict I now understand that I need to focus on finding the joy in situations rather than focusing and obsessing about the difficulties in my life. We can't choose our family, but we can learn to empathize for them. There are several ways that I have learned to cope with that.

Firstly, I limit my contact with my family members. I can demonstrate my love in 24-36 hours. I don't need to stay a week to prove I love them. Phone calls and cards are also great ways to connect and show support.

Also, Since looking at the 3 Principles (Mind, Thought, Consciousness) It has helped me to understand that I not only obsess about thoughts of P, I obsess about many things. I obsess about my triggers. Which are numerous. (A sneeze would indicate a cold was coming on, which meant I was going to be miserable for a week and get behind at work. Oh well, I'd better PMO). I need to learn to accept those thoughts as meaningless. Like you once said to me. They are merely thoughts and we need not be compelled to pull them into our consciousness and fill our mind with them. We have the power to pull positive thoughts into our consciousness which lead to meaningful and focused action.

Your life is not miserable, your life is a series of experiences from which lessons can be learned. Being single causes loneliness but remember that you are not incomplete without a partner. Loneliness was one of those thoughts that can become an obsession for me, a strong trigger. You are whole, you have just learned that porn gets you down. It gets us all down, we begin comparing our lives the deceitful simplicity we see on our screens everyday. We become brainwashed by that box to feel like we are less. Let those thoughts pass by like clouds in the sky.

You are wonderful and you have 60 days to prove it! Great work my friend! I applaud you.
 
Well done on 60 days, LTF! That is a huge accomplishment!

It sounds like you are in a stressful situation with your family. If you can stay strong through this period, without turning to PMO as a release, you are really on the right path. A normal routine will be easy after this!
 

lyon03

Respected Member
Well done brother. Your are not your family and their problems are not yours. Imagine you are writing a funny screenplay or acting in some comedy film to put things into perspective. Be well brother. PORN IS NOT AN OPTION.
 

neon tiger

Active Member
Thanks for the encouragement gents. Its days 65, i am back home and i didn't PMO, in great part thanks to reboot nation and your support.  Other than my one post a couple days back, i couldn't bring myself to write entries on my journal, but came to the forum to read your posts and find in your experiences the strength that i was no finding within myself.

Chief, you're so right on the length of family visits. this one was a few too many days. In hindsight, i should've gone for 5-6 days tops, and it would've been more than enough. But i spent big bucks on this plane ticket, and again, i don't have much to come back here to. I often dread holidays; by the time easter comes by, i have been isolated enough to wish i was near my family. Fact is, it will continue to be like that until i build a social support network around here, and/or get involved in a committed relationship.  If i want to remain PMO free (and be happy, and have a relation with my family that is both loving and healthy, and feel fulfilled with my job, and feel like everything i do has meaning), i have to make it happen. I know that sounds incredibly codependent- its not.  But isn't a sense of connection one of the basic human needs? I struggle to connect with people- it doesn't happen effortlessly. All these years I've blamed it on the shame, guilt and low self esteem that comes from PMO and sexual acting out, but 60 something days into my rebooting, i barely feel any shame or guilt (a very good thing!), yet i still find it very difficult to have a range of casual interactions with others.  After doing some reading around over the last couple days, i may want to talk to a professional about this.

As for myself, maybe next time ill pick a family free dream destination instead- with a friend or partner, or not. I can't wait to see the world, and now my job provides me with there means to be able to do it.  That goes for going to watch a movie, take a day trip, or any interest i keep myself from pursuing because theres no one to pursue it with.

Im back to work tomorrow; not feeling particularly strong or rejuvenated by the last few days, but looking forward to get back on the rhythm or thing around here.

Also resetting the counter to the next goal- 90 days!
 

neon tiger

Active Member
Things going well I guess. The whole family episode feels like so long ago already. Work is insanely busy right now.

Hate to bring this up again, but I have not O'ed since I started by reboot 67 days ago- neither through sex, M, or even wet dreams or night discharges. Does anyone on here know if this is normal?

I've teased myself with touch and getting it hard, but I have t engaged in M. I have occasional cravings- just had one right now. Decided to journal instead. Bedtime now.
 

lyon03

Respected Member
People have died due to lack of food, water, and shelter. I have also read about infants dying in orphanages because of a lack of love. But I've never read about anyone dying because they didn't orgasm. LOVE THE PAIN BROTHER. The longer you hold out, the more glorious your next orgasm will be when having sex with a meaningful partner.
 

chiefmitch88

Active Member
Sounds like the plumbing is functioning. However, making your orgasms a point of obsession only adds more mass to the issue in my opinion. If you allow your focus to dwell on the number of days since your last O your mind will begin spiraling out of control. (Am I OK? Will my d*ck ever work properly? I am just a P addict, life is miserable) That is how my brain works anyway. I not only have to monitor my P use, I have to monitor all the thoughts that drift through my head. In the same fashion that I have to accept my P thoughts as meaningless I feel that we must accept our inadequacy thoughts as equally meaningless. Those thoughts only lead to performance issues, just another mania that is associated with our addiction.http://www.3pgc.org/photos-videos/details/?m=1167 Patrick sent me this video. I found it extremely helpful, maybe you will too.
 

chiefmitch88

Active Member
Congrats on 70 days Tiger. In spite of all the difficulties you are staying on that wagon. That takes an impressive amount of willpower. Great work!
 

neon tiger

Active Member
Oh yeah, Im at 70 days!  Thank you chief. I give credit more to faith that willpower, cause experience has shown me that willpower alone will not get me too far. And the support of this forum, of course.  You'll be here before you know it. Im always inspired by your courage to move through so many things going on in your life and commit to your freedom from PMO. I will check out the video you sent later tonight.  I just started reading a book from Jon Kabat-Zinn on mindfulness. So far it seems like it will provide me with a guide for how to use my meditations more purposefully. Speaking of, i haven't been consistent with those since i came back from PR. Ill step it up starting tomorrow.

I can see how the question about the orgasm can hint at a possible obsession on my part (and lets face it i can be OCD at times, so you have a good point); but it is also health related. About a week ago, i had a secretion that seemed like an infection in nature. (i have not had sexual contact with anyone since my last STD tests). It went away like it came by- hasn't happened again. But i have heard in the past that one of the things that semen does is clean the urethra, which can end up with infection causing agents from the urine.  I haven't felt particularly sexually driven, and i am not too worried, although the apathy sometimes worry me, which leads me to thinking about sex just to see if i can get aroused. I don't dwell on that for long though (i shake myself off of it, since it can be a slippery path), and i am getting more and more used to the fact that i am flatlining.

Going on a first date in two hours. Were gonna meet for coffee at Starbucks. Trying not to think about it too much, but i am also pretty excited ;)
 

neon tiger

Active Member
Thank you lyon and Chief. Your good wishes mean the world to me.  They were a life saver in the aftermath.

Go figure- turns out, dates are a HUGE trigger for me...

It was a very slippery road last night. I had a huge longing for my favorite porn site. I wanted to know who was new there, or what my old favorites have been up to. I even googled the name of the site, and allowed myself to wander through some of the images results (pictures of the site's performers- none nude or engaged in sex, by miracle).  i didn't go to it, but at this point i can say it was only by the grace of God, because i wanted nothing more.

In fact, what happened is that in the midst of it, i asked myself "Why the heck is this urge so strong today, after a date?  What about this date triggers such craving?" Well, my best guess (and i believe the answer lies somewhere very close to this) is that dates make me very self conscious about all those things in my life that i feel insecure about or unsatisfied with.  This time it was the social isolation in particular.  Pretty early on the conversation led to the fact that I've lived in rural areas for the majority of the last 8 years; he asked if it was by choice, and as i am responding i am realizing that i have chosen rural settings because i have sought out to isolate (i didn't say this of course), and that is not the person I think i am, but it is the person I've chosen to be. From that point on, I feel I am the sum of all the poor choices I've made in my life; I don't believe it came across, as i have become pretty skilled at navigating social situations while feeling all insecure inside- and he also said we should meet again this week for dinner  ;)

Which brings me to what i should really be concerned with here- did i like him? i remember having this conversation with my therapist a while ago.  When i am concerned with what the person thinks of me i am wasting my energy because there is no way i can control that, nor does it matter (unless of course, i like him). But most importantly, i am not present in the moment and with the person, getting to know him and whether it is someone i would like to spend more time with, and being closer to. I reminded myself of this at times during the date anytime i caught myself drifting into my own mind. Well, i went into the meeting thinking i would be there for an hour to 90 minutes tops and i would go to a workout afterwards.  I had to skip the workout because by the time we left the gym was too close to closing time. We chat for two plus hours and time flew by. There was substance, humor, and mental stimulation; although i didn't feel the urge to get in his pants, he within the range of what i can find attractive.  I ned to keep in mind that: 1.  I am flatlining; and 2. I am also redefining attraction, as i have defined that for so long against the performers on my favorite porn sites and scenes (which is way too unfair to the rest of the humankind!).

So today the higher order prized me for not surrendering to PMO with a day off from work due to weather, which i am beyond words of gratitude. I have spent the last two hours reading stories on here, replying to posts, and bringing it back to the basics. So much needed, as this insecurity with which i approach social situations is at the core of why it is so difficult for me to create that new life I want for myself.

So yeah, i will certainly go on that dinner date...


 

chiefmitch88

Active Member
I applaud you for having the strength to catch yourself. Because you were able to resist the urge you uncovered some very useful insights. The first stage is acceptance. For me that means accepting every part of ourselves as we are in the moment as well as accepting our pasts. Not only our addictions but the negative thinking and obsession that we also struggle with.

It's also perfectly normal to feel that insecurity. Dates are vulnerable situations, you were attempting to let someone see the real you. I know it is a scary thing, being from the midwest I would likely be labeled as a pervert by a good portion of my community if I allowed my addiction to be public knowledge. These situations help us to discover what we are unsatisfied with and what we can't accept about ourselves. The next step is to think of creative solutions to help pull us out of the funk, in one form or another, that we medicate using porn rather than addressing what we'd like to change in our lives because that change seems impossible. This website was helpful to me, maybe it'll be of some use to you.
http://www.yourbrainrebalanced.com/index.php?topic=15558.0

Also, I choose not to believe that you are the sum total of all your bad decisions. Yes, you have made some choices that led you away from your path in life. Who hasn't? But that line of thinking discounts anything positive you have done in your life. I see that there is great good within your Tiger and while you might not live every moment in life with grace that does not mean that you can't be graceful. I too chose to isolate myself in a rural community because I didn't understand people and it is difficult to live without much in terms of culture but I choose not to dwell on the problem. I discovered my addiction while living here so I look at it as a chapter in my journey that was necessary to go through. Try keeping your mind occupied with finding solutions instead. If you want to live somewhere else, move. If you want to overcome your social phobias, talk to a therapist. If you feel bored with your job, strive for something more fulfilling. If you want love, learn to love yourself first. This is about rebuilding our lives, porn is just one of a host of distractions meant to keep us from that endeavor.

Regardless of how your relationship with this person goes, always remember that porn will never take away that pain that goes hand and hand with life and love. It only delays the pain till another day. It is OK to feel powerful emotions, harness their power to motivate yourself toward real change. They can't hurt you, they won't kill you. Know that your path of sobriety is the right path. Keep walking it and sharing and you will get somewhere, but journeys take time and never go precisely as planned.
 

neon tiger

Active Member
Thank you for your encouragement chief.  You're absolutely right. Dates are beyond vulnerable situations. I remember us discussing vulnerability earlier on, and i know i will need to embrace it if i want to overcome some of the difficulties i have with social situations. I had spent some time on Sunday morning reading the brine rebalanced post you shared, which i believe you sent me on an earlier message a couple days ago. I keep going back to it, and digesting it pieces at a time. I don't believe either that i am the sum of all my bad decisions- it just felt that way in that moment of vulnerability. I was just voicing my thoughts so they wouldn't owe me anymore. You're right, i am the sum of all those bad decisions, PLUS all the things I've done as a result of them, and i feel pretty good overall with the person I've become.

So we had a dinner date today (sunday was a very casual coffee meet up). Once again, time flew by, we spoke of many other things, laughed, shared some dreams and passions, geeked out on obscure words, a great time overall. I must say i am very glad that i am flatlining as i go through this, because i am not preoccupied with sex while were together. Which is more than i can say about most other dates I've had in the past. Though i can't tell if the reason i am not is because i am flatlining or because some of the obsession with sex has been lifted. But i am not preoccupied, which has allowed me to be present, and get to know this guy for the person he is, and i like him so far...
 

lyon03

Respected Member
Thanks for sharing brother. It sounds like you're doing all the right things. I am now happy to get to know people, rather than seeing them as potential sexual objects. Be well my friend. I look forward to reading more about your new relationship.
 
Top